Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Elaphe]

One of the main reasons that has not been mentioned yet is that most of the users do not have (and will not spend their money) in dedicated controls. It's the same reason why the genre of simulation is almost dead too. Sims require a good set of steering wheel and pedals, and shoot'em ups need an arcade control panel. Pads are enough for most modern games, but not for sims, fighting games, shmups, etc.

[oli_lar]

The fact that the arcades have declined is perhaps the reason no one plays for score anymore, you can't show other people in the arcade how boss you are. Online leader boards are rectifying this somewhat among people that are self motivated, but some sort of forum integration would get the others more interested.

I don't think saying Euroshmups are all that people can remember - there were sod all that made it on to the consoles. Its perhaps correct on people that gamed on computers, ie PC, Amiga, ST etc. There are few good shooters for them.

[ROBOTRON]

Reminds me when SNK "fans", were complaining about the first accurate ports on Saturn and Dreamcast, because "their" games were suddenly more accessible to a wider audience. After they had complained that SNK went bankrupt, of course.

Eurpoeans and the japanese are the only smart ones that sing praises of shmups....us dumb americans are the only ones hiding in the cracks....... importing whatever shmup that we can get our handfs on without making much noise.

Its a shame.

In Europe people don't even know what a shmup is, they don't even know the meaning of the word "arcade".

Ok, so what should I have said? UK?

[CptRansom]

I dunno about you guys, but it was a video of Mushihimesama that got me interested in shmups. I was intrigued by the difficulty, and it turned out that I fell in love with the genre.

I'm in the same boat. I'd played a few shmups in the past, but stumbling upon vids of Futari back in February of last year or so is what got me interested. Then by October of last year I finally got rid of a lot of my casual-ass modern games to focus on shooters, and I haven't even thought of looking back since.

[Jeneki]

Shmups are a niche genre because they are JUST 4 FUN.

[EinhanderZwei]

Shmups are a niche genre because they are JUST 4 FUN.

GTA is also just 4 fun, but Rockstar employees are bathing in bucks. Seibu Kaihatsu don't

[TodayIsForgotten]

Geometry wars, Charlies Games, Grid Runner++, Ion Assault, Shred Nebula

Confuses "Giant visual clusterfuck" with bullet hell. (Also any game which calls itself "the true next-gen shoot-em-up experience" can suck my balls on a stick.)

0Day, I made a game with zombies, Platypus, Atomhex, Leave Home

Not bullet hell

Death By Cube, 1up

These just look fucking stupid

Duality

Really more of a Raiden homeage

It's just all there are, are bullet hell/manic shooters

Why did you take out why I think the genre is niche? I never said any of those games are bullet hell. I listed all those games indicating how a niche genre continues to pump out 10s of hundreds of arena shooters and hori/vert shooters. But, they are not mainstream.

I think death by cube and 1up look decent vs what's available today. But, that is my opinion, much like yours. So you're saying that there are so many "mainstream" non manic and bullet hell games that everyone can get a hold of? If so could you point me in that direction? Last time i checked once standard type games left the arcade and were replaced by games with more manic bullet patterns and then into more of bullet hell the genre died out in the arcade. After 1990 all i ever saw at my arcades were maybe 1 or 2 games shoot em up games. Most being raiden. Don't you think the diffiiculty in manic/bullet hell vs say a standard shoot em up would and probably did turn out less money into the machine in area's where arcades are not in ASIA?

As I said. If a company brought out a mainstream, original (new game not gradius etc) title like an r-type or a gradius or whatever standard shooting game you can think of in the past, to say a 360 or PS3 or WII. I think there is a good chance over-time if more games started to come out that the genre would grow. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[RHE]

These are really good games, but nobody knows about them.

Nobody?

Personally I find this topic quite interesting but I don't get the importance of making the genre a less extreme niche or even mainstream genre. Just to make you feel less hardcore?

However, It's fact is that people love to shoot stuff (that's why shmup has been mainstream once), but now there are FPS, you can shoot within a 3D environment which is less absctact than shooting on a 2D plane. Of course this means to have less precision on directly dodging enemy fire, but somehow that's something people don't care much about. They rather try to avoid getting hit by a bullet by using a stealth strategy or just shooting the enemy down quick.

For people who like to dodging enemy bullets on a high precision level, the shmup is unavoidable.

[TodayIsForgotten]

These are really good games, but nobody knows about them.

Nobody?

Personally I find this topic quite interesting but I don't get the importance of making the genre a less extreme niche or even mainstream genre.

However, It's fact is that people love to shoot stuff (that's why shmup has been mainstream once), but now there are FPS, you can shoot within a 3D environment which is less absctact than shooting on a 2D plane. Of course this means to have less precision on directly dodging enemy fire, but somehow that's something people don't care much about. They rather try to avoid getting hit by a bullet by using a stealth strategy or just shooting the enemy down quick.

For people who like to dodging enemy bullets on a high precision level, the shmup is unavoidable.

Good point. I think the multiplayer is what really catapulted this genre or the capabilities of local multiplayer before online play became popular. Maybe if they could figure out how to get a shoot em up online in mutliplay that isnt like subspace and had depth and no lag issues...

[Jeneki]

Shmups are a niche genre because they are JUST 4 FUN.

GTA is also just 4 fun, but Rockstar employees are bathing in bucks. Seibu Kaihatsu don't

GTA can't be JUST 4 FUN, because they aren't Category: Retro.




(note: see the cover art for Illvelo if you're not getting the joke)

[gs68]

I want to stab kittens every time a reviewer knocks points off a shmup for not having multiplayer. Moreso if it's online multiplayer that they complain about.

[TodayIsForgotten]

I want to stab kittens every time a reviewer knocks points off a shmup for not having multiplayer. Moreso if it's online multiplayer that they complain about.

To play devil's advocate. I can understand where they are coming from. People want to play with other's. What's usually the first or second thing someone who buys an FPS does? Either immediately go online to play or play story mode then go online.

I can't recall spending 10 hours a day playing a shoot em up. I can recall playing 10+ hours playing Counter-Strike, Red Faction etc. People want online. It's a sad realization for shmups but that is what people want. And this is probably another reason why a shmup will stay niche. It caters to the devoted.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I think alot of gamers just want to relax and play games that are easy to control like rpgs / strategies or fps, some gamers are so lazy that they would rather watch a video of someone else LPing the game rather then play it themselves.

Then theres other reasons of shmups not been 3d, an old genre or just not leet enough, one thing i dont get is that some of those guys who'll say such things have no problems playing SF4 or any other fighter. Anyways I hope that as indie and retro gaming gets more popular (just look at all those retro platformers that are getting a facelift) and as the years go by shmups will once again be more mainstream (but not too mainstream i hope)

[Square King]

R-Type Dimensions bought two titles in the series to the 360 and I thought Tozai did a damn good job in keeping the ports true to the originals -- not to mention the interesting hi-res work they did helped to keep it visually fresh. But it didn't generate large enough waves in the 360 community, and I think that's largely because some game devs are too focused on bringing the arcade feel to consoles, which I feel is a lost cause.

I'm sure shmups are firmly tucked into a niche because the concept of arcades (well, at least in the West) is largely lost. It's impossible to recreate the feeling of showing a group of players how to rip apart a game's toughest boss, only to walk to another machine and do it again. Some multiplayer games have this idea in mind, but they'll never convey that feeling on a console -- and they should stop trying. I'd say the majority of 360 owners never experienced many -- if any -- games in an actual arcade. Many gamers see shmups as a 5-minute experience, perfectly adapted for arcade play, so they'd be content with dropping 25 cents every few days or so, but when they're spending $250 on a system and $60 per game, they want things to open up immediately -- achievements/trophies, unlockables, alternate endings, whatever -- to give the impression/illusion of lengthening a game and getting their money's worth.

I had a point when I started typing, but I dunno where I'm heading now. How do you market a shmup to a new generation of players? What concepts could take the average player away from Call of Duty/GTA/etc enough to want to master a skill-based game? I think Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga were sort of the last hurrah for appealing to a wider spectrum of gamers -- they looked great and featured some innovating concepts for the genre. I guess that's what we need and I think it can be done.

FWIW, I'm all for shmups becoming mainstream, but I'm not hopeful.

[Castor Krieg]

I got into SHMUPS a few months ago so I can tell you how it was in my case:

SHMUPs are way too difficult and too short for majority of gamers nowadays. You might say "you can spend 100+ hrs perfecting your run and getting better at scoring" and I agree with that - that's why I started playing it, the same way DJ Max got me into music games. But with so many games most gamers will not sit long at any one game, they will go through 10hrs game, sell it and buy/rent another one. After all they don't want to have nothing to talk about with their friends.

SHMUPs won't become mainstream because the amount of players that will try to 1CC and get better score on the same 4-5 stages for 100hrs+ will always be smaller than gamers who just want to play the game, sell it back, and be done with it.

Then theres other reasons of shmups not been 3d, an old genre or just not leet enough, one thing i dont get is that some of those guys who'll say such things have no problems playing SF4 or any other fighter. Anyways I hope that as indie and retro gaming gets more popular (just look at all those retro platformers that are getting a facelift) and as the years go by shmups will once again be more mainstream (but not too mainstream i hope)

I remember times where 2D games were beautiful and 3D games ugly. I cannot stand crap 3D graphics on PSP or DS just for the sake of it, I will take 2D graphics any time.

[Pointman]

Shoot em up's were once (and really still are) as mainstream as you can get. People seem to forget that the shoot em up only lost favour with the advent of the Playstation generation. Before that you couldn't move for shooters. Now here is the thing: back in those days shooters were mainstream AND hardcore, a successful marriage between the two. The argument to say that shoot em up's are becoming casual isn't really convincing. Daifukkatsu's formula was kind of understandable in the arcade sector. Cave's argument would be that they would like more people to play their games (which is the proper intent of the arcade business) It seems to have worked as it is a very popular game. This bodes well for the potential home port as it will include these modes, but also include any possible harder remix (maybe like Black Label) mode. It's a win-win situation all round.

As for popularity, I've said before shoot em up's only lost out because of technology, 3D games appealed to the masses. Nobody is going to play Tetris on the monochrome Gameboy over say Tekken 6 on the PSP. People are fickle. The first thing that your average joe is going to look at are the graphics. Even those posters here who said that Futari got them into shooters would be hard pressed to say that it wasn't the graphics that first enticed them.

Anyway to get back to my original point, shoot em up's have always been mainstream. It's just that they aren't as POPULAR as they were before. Simple as that really.

[RHE]

Anyway to get back to my original point, shoot em up's have always been mainstream. It's just that they aren't as POPULAR as they were before. Simple as that really.

I don't get your point, man. Why doesn't mainstream equals popularity in your eyes? For me mainstream implies popularity. I mean something that's mainstream but not popular is the same that something that's not mainstream and not popular. The result is the same.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

im quite sure shmups will be more popular in the future then they are atm. Primirilly because shmups are loved by the indie comunity so we will always see indie type shmups been made (eg geo wars and aba games shmups). Considering indie devs ability to inovate tired old game mechanics as to what type of shmup is gonna be popular in the future will probably be something quite different from a std vertical shooter. The MMOSTG Valkyrie Sky is only the beggining of completly new ways to dodge bullets

Also I wonder how well touhou would do if it went mainstream (although atm it practically is) and was marketed to gamers in the west. Maybe with extra noob friendly easy modes tacked onto zuns games

[EPS21]

Shoot em up's were once (and really still are) as mainstream as you can get. People seem to forget that the shoot em up only lost favour with the advent of the Playstation generation. Before that you couldn't move for shooters. Now here is the thing: back in those days shooters were mainstream AND hardcore, a successful marriage between the two. The argument to say that shoot em up's are becoming casual isn't really convincing. Daifukkatsu's formula was kind of understandable in the arcade sector. Cave's argument would be that they would like more people to play their games (which is the proper intent of the arcade business) It seems to have worked as it is a very popular game. This bodes well for the potential home port as it will include these modes, but also include any possible harder remix (maybe like Black Label) mode. It's a win-win situation all round.

As for popularity, I've said before shoot em up's only lost out because of technology, 3D games appealed to the masses. Nobody is going to play Tetris on the monochrome Gameboy over say Tekken 6 on the PSP. People are fickle. The first thing that your average joe is going to look at are the graphics. Even those posters here who said that Futari got them into shooters would be hard pressed to say that it wasn't the graphics that first enticed them.

Anyway to get back to my original point, shoot em up's have always been mainstream. It's just that they aren't as POPULAR as they were before. Simple as that really.

I'm not sure I quite find your point either. Tetris, instead of shmups could've been really popular in the arcades back in the day, but it happened to get popular here on handhelds/consoles first. But even today, even if it isn't considered "mainstream" its still very popular practically being a household word. I'm not sure a game can always be mainstream, long after its popularity fades.

I also think you're overestimating "everyone," as non gamers wouldn't go out and buy a psp and some game they never heard of (tekken 6) and for a brief moment of fun an average person would rather opt for quick puzzler like Tetris or Bejeweled on their cell phone.

Also I wonder how well touhou would do if it went mainstream (although atm it practically is) and was marketed to gamers in the west. Maybe with extra noob friendly easy modes tacked onto zuns games

On the internet maybe, but as far as normal gaming scene is, its pretty nonexistant. I don't think it'd be pretty though, given it appeals to the anime crowd with its vast amount of little girls in frilly dresses, you can see how retarded western fans of those are (narutards and the like).

[Exarion]

Okay, when asking average gamers near why shmups are such a niche genre, I got the following responses:
Nobody plays space shooters/bullet hell because...
...casual gamers can't handle them (1 person)
...nobody has heard of them (everybody else)

In confirmation of the above, I asked them if they had heard of these series, and recorded the number who said yes:
gradius-0
R-type-0
donpachi-0
mushihimesama-0 (and some of them had even seen the video of the stage 5 boss, but didn't recognize the name)
touhou-1 (said person went to an anime convention this weekend, and showed me some pictures. There was 1 person there as a touhou character, and he could not identify her. She was dressed as Flandre Scarlet)
raiden- everybody (and they all said something about the toothpaste laser)

make of it what you will

[Battletoad]

More modern shmups tend be bullet hell, such as mushihime-sama, which makes Battletoads look easy.

Hah that´s exactly what I thought back in the day. Battletoads was on the top of several "Hardest games" lists on the net, but I could never really understand that, after I got more into the Shmups genre.

[captpain]

More modern shmups tend be bullet hell, such as mushihime-sama, which makes Battletoads look easy.

Hah that´s exactly what I thought back in the day. Battletoads was on the top of several "Hardest games" lists on the net, but I could never really understand that, after I got more into the Shmups genre.

They always put the NES version of Contra on those, too, which is even stupider. I mean Battletoads isn't easy, but Contra really is.

[Exarion]

The Silver Surfer is also from that era, and is harder than contra (as many bullets as an easier bullet hell game, full sprite hitbox, 1 life, no extends, 15 stages). Never seen on a hardest games list.

Something I forgot to mention: nobody knew even what genre I was talking about until I mentioned raiden.

[Davey]

Anyway to get back to my original point, shoot em up's have always been mainstream. It's just that they aren't as POPULAR as they were before. Simple as that really.

I don't get your point, man. Why doesn't mainstream equals popularity in your eyes? For me mainstream implies popularity. I mean something that's mainstream but not popular is the same that something that's not mainstream and not popular. The result is the same.

I have to agree with RHE here. Shmups can't possibly be mainstream if many people have never even heard of the classics.

Anyway, aside from looking graphically outdated in most people's eyes, another issue is that gamer demographics were much different when shmups were mainstream. I was pretty young, but IIRC most gamers were kids and/or nerds back in the late 80's and early 90's. Once the 3D era started a lot of big name titles were neither kiddy nor nerdy, and ever since then the market has shifted more towards guys in their 20's and 30's, nerdy or not. And now you have the Wii making the market bigger and broader yet. It was easier to be mainstream when the hobby as a whole was more niche; a lot of people who are gamers today probably wouldn't play video games if things had never evolved past the 16-bit era. I'd never expect people like that to like shmups, or even understand the appeal really.

[MachineAres 1CC]

Anyway to get back to my original point, shoot em up's have always been mainstream. It's just that they aren't as POPULAR as they were before. Simple as that really.

I don't get your point, man. Why doesn't mainstream equals popularity in your eyes? For me mainstream implies popularity. I mean something that's mainstream but not popular is the same that something that's not mainstream and not popular. The result is the same.

I have to agree with RHE here. Shmups can't possibly be mainstream if many people have never even heard of the classics.

Anyway, aside from looking graphically outdated in most people's eyes, another issue is that gamer demographics were much different when shmups were mainstream. I was pretty young, but IIRC most gamers were kids and/or nerds back in the late 80's and early 90's. Once the 3D era started a lot of big name titles were neither kiddy nor nerdy, and ever since then the market has shifted more towards guys in their 20's and 30's, nerdy or not. And now you have the Wii making the market bigger and broader yet. It was easier to be mainstream when the hobby as a whole was more niche; a lot of people who are gamers today probably wouldn't play video games if things had never evolved past the 16-bit era. I'd never expect people like that to like shmups, or even understand the appeal really.

I think you hit it very well on the head here, the shift in the way games were made and marketed that happened in the mid 90s with the advent of 3D console gaming really changed what games were for entirely. When they realized there was a different kind of audience that was willing to spend money on games, they started catering more to this. And this meant lazy, desensitized people who want as loud, obnoxious, and unchallenging of an experience out of everything as they can get. The shift went away from just playing games to have fun or challenge yourself and just turned into wanting something much more "auto-pilot" style if you will. They started to make games so they're more like blockbuster hollywood movies than they are interesting and challenging interactive entertainment media. There's so much I have to say about the subject, but I'd rather not type it all out again, therefore..

I actually wrote a pretty similar article about this entire thing. Its not specific to shmups, but games in general, and shmups are a large part of this. The article is here: http://hatebrigade.blogspot.com/2008/10 ... pened.html Its a little bit long, but its basically my thoughts on this very subject and I think some people may find it interesting. Especially someone like Exarion who actually seems to be researching the subject a little more fully. I partially did this when I was writing this article as well.

[BrightSuzaku]

In confirmation of the above, I asked them if they had heard of these series, and recorded the number who said yes:
gradius-0
R-type-0
donpachi-0
mushihimesama-0 (and some of them had even seen the video of the stage 5 boss, but didn't recognize the name)
touhou-1 (said person went to an anime convention this weekend, and showed me some pictures. There was 1 person there as a touhou character, and he could not identify her. She was dressed as Flandre Scarlet)
raiden- everybody (and they all said something about the toothpaste laser)

make of it what you will

... I usually mention Darius Twin. Apparently, I get hits when I mention that, funnily enough.

Ikaruga also usually gets a hit for me. But nobody knows about Gradius or R-type (which bugs me. A LOT.) and Mushihimesama only ever seems to get a hit if dare mention the "HARDEST BOSS EVER" Youtube video.

Speaking of older games in general, I once asked someone (around my age) "Remember when games where hard?" Because I remember, quite fondly, an age in which all games were pretty damn difficult. However, he said he didn't, and doesn't like hard games: "that's what cheat codes are for". I wanted to hit him in response.

People just don't like difficult games. I'm actually keeping a close eye on the non-shmup RPG Demon's Souls, which is reputed to be fiendishly hard (yaaaay~) and has garnered quite a lot of praise (and criticism) for its difficulty. I think that, while most people in the mainstream dislike hard games, I think the larger niche of gamers who enjoy them could be more receptive to shmups.

I mean, we may be posting a shmups forum, but we basically could agree on the same feelings as say, people who enjoy roguelikes. Which are basically old as dirt, difficult, and newb-unfriendly. Which is actually a shame (I speak of the "newb unfriendly" part, not the difficulty. XD).

I think what draws gamers into this specific niche crowd (and not the "supposedly-hardcore-games-for-8-hours-straight" crowd) is the fact that difficulty, and overcoming that difficulty, in a game is a wonderful feeling, and a thrill of its own. All difficult games, as I've noticed, share a tendency to have specific rules within their gameplay (such as, say, how NOT to die). An "how to play", on paper can be either difficult or easy to learn.

But no matter whether the tutorial is easy or difficult to wrap your brain around, difficulty in-game is still what turns many people in the mainstream off, and this is what bothers me about mainstream gaming. While I'm still a terrible shmupper (don't ask me about Futari on Novice mode. e_e), I'm willing to play difficult games because to me, a challenge is very fun and rewarding. And I think, until people see that there is a tangible thrill to a difficult game, they will avoid them.

Of course, not everyone thinks that way, so maybe that's just my two cents and nothing more. :/

[cul]

Anyway, aside from looking graphically outdated in most people's eyes, another issue is that gamer demographics were much different when shmups were mainstream. I was pretty young, but IIRC most gamers were kids and/or nerds back in the late 80's and early 90's. Once the 3D era started a lot of big name titles were neither kiddy nor nerdy, and ever since then the market has shifted more towards guys in their 20's and 30's, nerdy or not. And now you have the Wii making the market bigger and broader yet. It was easier to be mainstream when the hobby as a whole was more niche; a lot of people who are gamers today probably wouldn't play video games if things had never evolved past the 16-bit era. I'd never expect people like that to like shmups, or even understand the appeal really.

I really thing this is it. We must remember that many genre of video games completely disappeared during the second part of the 90ies : point'n'cliks, space simulations a la wing commander, complex military aircraft simulation (f22 lighting's, eurofighter, etc.), and every game that was using 2d graphics and was not a fighting game or a shmup.

The main link between all those genre is that they all were "hard" in their ways. Point'n'cliks took long trial and error game session to progress, space and aircrafts simulation were so complex it took day to be able to achieve the first missions, etc....
Since the early 2000ies, the whole gaming experience has been dumbed down even on genres that always remained mainstream. Compare the difficulty of a FPS back in 2000 to the last CoD, compare x-hawk to what was eurofighter or f22 lightning, we can go on and on. Sad but true, people today don't want challenge, they want cheap, easy rewarding entertainment. When my brother watched me ending mushi futari the other day, all he could say was "it's already the ending?". He never even eared the concept of scoring. Maybe that's why 2D fighters do better at selling copies and being known to a wider audience, most of people who touched a console probably eard at least once about game like King of Fighters or GGX, because there's not that whole scoring dimension and high dedication to beat the CPU, or because they like the characters.

The day videogames went mainstream, we switched from an audience who played games from gameplay, to an audience who plays games for aesthetics.

Now the only relevant question is: Is our audience large enough to keep the shmup genre profitable, and thus, keeping it alive?

[Castor Krieg]

People just don't like difficult games. I'm actually keeping a close eye on the non-shmup RPG Demon's Souls, which is reputed to be fiendishly hard (yaaaay) and has garnered quite a lot of praise (and criticism) for its difficulty. I think that, while most people in the mainstream dislike hard games, I think the larger niche of gamers who enjoy them could be more receptive to shmups.
(...)

I think what draws gamers into this specific niche crowd (and not the "supposedly-hardcore-games-for-8-hours-straight" crowd) is the fact that difficulty, and overcoming that difficulty, in a game is a wonderful feeling, and a thrill of its own. All difficult games, as I've noticed, share a tendency to have specific rules within their gameplay (such as, say, how NOT to die). An "how to play", on paper can be either difficult or easy to learn.

But no matter whether the tutorial is easy or difficult to wrap your brain around, difficulty in-game is still what turns many people in the mainstream off, and this is what bothers me about mainstream gaming. While I'm still a terrible shmupper (don't ask me about Futari on Novice mode. e_e), I'm willing to play difficult games because to me, a challenge is very fun and rewarding. And I think, until people see that there is a tangible thrill to a difficult game, they will avoid them.

I can comment on Demon's Souls - the game is difficult, but it isn't CHEAP. A lot of old games we find hard were hard because of imbalance between player character and the A.I. You couldn't do as much as computer could, his attacks were impossible to dodge, etc. In DS you can clear every boss without getting hit, some build even keep HP stat at its default level.

Another example is DMC3 as a Royal Guard - if you got the timing right you were tearing thorough enemies.

We know that good SHMUP is like good difficulty - there is ALWAYS a way to survive. You just need to position your ship in a specific place depending on what is going on on the screen. There are always gaps in the pattern.

However for each game like that there were 10 games which were simply unfair to the player. Anyone remember multitude of jRPGs where a boss could cast "Death" spell on the whole party? Or the whole Malboro Breath shit in FF games? As gaming became more mainstream people wanted to enjoy games, see the ending, have a great fun. Developers made the wrong design decision, because instead of making their games not-cheap they decided to just dumb them down.

Gamers are now a consumer product. It's the same with movies - some people enjoy deep, provocative movies (think SHMUP maniacs), while some just want to have fun for 2 hours (think mainstream). The movie "Avatar" is a recent example - Cameron stated from the beginning that the movie was supposed to be an entertainment. That's why I don't fault him for making super-generic and shallow sci-fi production.

The day videogames went mainstream, we switched from an audience who played games from gameplay, to an audience who plays games for aesthetics.

Now the only relevant question is: Is our audience large enough to keep the shmup genre profitable, and thus, keeping it alive?

I was born in 1984 and maybe because my first gaming hardware was ZX Spectrum I will take good 2D over good 3D anytime. When I see things like Muramasa or Mushi or Ikaruga HD I go

I think SHMUPs will survive due to their characteristic feature - we don't need 10 games per year. Really, for scorers or even people trying to 1CC 3-4 SHMUPS from Cave are more than enough. Then we also have horizontal-scrolling like Omega 5 (damn, even DS is horizontal). If you really need more games there are always shmup hybrids like Senko no Ronde.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Although there will always be gamers who like hard games the fact is that there are plenty of other gaming genres which other gamers can play to get their jollies like i wanna be the guy type platformers or cheap death hard jrpgs (just look at all those hardest video game boss vids and most of them are jrpgs)

Another major reason that Castor Krieg sorta touched on in the post b4, is that all shmups look alike they eather have generic looking ships or generic looking loli. The only real thing that seperates alot of shmups is the bullet patterns and scoring system, which the average joe blogs isnt gonna notice. Probably one of the reasons why most gamers think of Raiden.

I do think that when a shmup comes out that LOOKS totally different and new that casual gamers will play and buy it. Just look at geometry wars with its neon style graphics

[Obiwanshinobi]

Even for a "searching" gamer who hasn't been in touch with the old ways of gaming for quite a long time, a shmup - either modern bullet hell, or some old-fashioned horizontal scroller with a lot of furniture and big hitboxes - may be too humiliating to be fun at all. A lesson in humility is hardly something people wish to pay for these days. To get into the shmups you really need to want to have a BLAST. Maybe you have to be a little bit jaded and tired of everything else around. I suppose this is where perverted ideas like I Wanna Be The Guy keep coming from.