R-Type Final really sucks

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esreveR
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by esreveR »

raigon50 wrote:Maybe an R-Type LEO remake?
I am all for this.

Oh and Gunforce 2.
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JGcontraman
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by JGcontraman »

Eh, I dislike R-Type in general. Especially Super R-Type and R-Type 3. Just really meh...
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by stryc9 »

Why do they even keep this R-Type bashing thread open? obviously it boils down to personal taste in the end, but realise that R-Type spawned a sub-genre within STG - corridor lurkers, commonly using a variant of the positionable Force Pod (Last Resort, Pulstar, Last Hope etc.) and I get the feeling alot of the members of this forum just don't get it. It's a different style of play and and I can appreciate it equally as much as the latest Cave shit.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by JGcontraman »

What do you mean? its just a standard hori shmup, but yes the pod is just an add-on tbh.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by stryc9 »

I don't agree. A lot of other horis (Thunderforce immediately springs to mind) have more twitch based gameplay. What would you call a non-standard hori? As for the slow pace, if R-Type moved as quick as other shooters it would be ALOT more difficult. And it's not like it's a cakewalk as it is.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by stryc9 »

yes the pod is just an add-on tbh.[/quote]

Yeah, an add on that completely changes the way the game is played. Ever tried a run without utilising the Force Pod? It's 'non-standard' because of this very idea....
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by JGcontraman »

Why would I try a run without something very meaningful to the game to begin with? Not that I don't doubt I won't be able to do it but I see myself being tempted to use something such as the pod if I can easily get my hands on it.

Besides certain shmups having faster shot rates, etc, I don't really find a huge difference. Unless you recall games like Steel Empire where you actually get a health bar.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by NzzpNzzp »

JGcontraman wrote:Why would I try a run without something very meaningful to the game to begin with?
I think the idea is you play without it so you can see exactly how much of a difference it makes. Seriously, trying to say the force is just an add on? It's like saying rank in Garegga doesn't matter, or the polarity in Ikaruga is just fluff, or something. You don't have to like the game, but saying shit like that is just wrong.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by Kobayashi »

Final is mediocre indeed, but Delta is superb.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by JGcontraman »

Well the polarity in Ikaruga is definitly needed at times. I just don't feel the same about the force pod in R-Type, just saying. But the fact that its there only makes you want to use it. Now in a game like Gaiares, the force pod is necessary, but that doesn't change the gameplay in relation to that of a regular shmup, or at least not very much if you take into consideration to what you can do with the pod itself.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by BIL »

Try getting the podless run note (or "achievement") in R-Type Delta. You won't have the same opinion afterwards.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by near_miss »

Compared to Delta, most shooters pale imo.

R-type final is one of my favorite games-- it was the first of the series I played, so I couldn't be disappointed. Sure it's slow, but the game has personality; it's creepy, surreal, and it's operatic. Rare qualities in a shooter, even rarer when seen together.

If I want to test my raw twitch reflexes, there's tons of choices.

However, the patience and focus required to succeed at any r-type is something much different. There is a beauty in reading the best way through a level and executing it pixel perfectly; and the checkpoint restarts nullify credit feeding the bosses-- a rare challenge these days.

When I first played a level, I would struggle to get by on instinct alone-- soon I'd learn where to be on the screen, which mechanics to use-- again just to survive by a narrow margin-- but when strategy, skill and memory re-combine r-type reveals it's true identity.

Suddenly what once was impossible seems easy. You're the master of the environment and everything flows with intricate clockwork.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by JGcontraman »

BIL wrote:Try getting the podless run note (or "achievement") in R-Type Delta. You won't have the same opinion afterwards.
I wouldn't doubt that it would be more of a challenge, but the pod not being mandatory goes to show that it does not need to be used. The fact that its there not only makes the game easier, but also becomes a desired necessity for the player.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by BIL »

The pod not being mandatory shows that Delta is an exceptionally well-designed game. This is doubly true considering it's not an overly easy shooter even with it, where a lot of others would be completely broken by an indestructible shield powerup.

Quit shitposting away in this topic, get that note, preferably on "Bydo" difficulty, and try arguing the pod isn't an integral part of the game's design.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by NzzpNzzp »

JGcontraman wrote:I wouldn't doubt that it would be more of a challenge, but the pod not being mandatory goes to show that it does not need to be used.
Go finish stage 6 in Delta without it then, why doncha?

Shit, in fact, you don't even need to do that. All you need to do to see how much gameplay changes with the force is to use one. All this detaching and reattaching and dancing about getting it to ram into things alone is enough to drastically change the way the game is played, even if it's not necessary. And that's just with standard, once you start with ones like cyclone or trying to hit things with anchor's chain it gets more involved. S'like a very simplified version of a doubleplay, sort of.

Seriously, play without it and see how well it goes, go on.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by stryc9 »

You never know, he might start liking R-Type after this...not that he's gonna admit that here. I thought Near Miss comments were good- he describes the raw gameplay experience of R-Type, and these haters can read this, but they have to experience it first hand to actually 'get' it. It's the equal and opposite polar equivelent of the whole 'in the zone' mindset you get when playing serious bullet hell. It's just different, and the STG landscape is richer for it.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by JGcontraman »

I will try delta eventually then, since you guys are pushing on about the game itself. But the fact of the matter is its POSSIBLE to beat the game without the pod.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by BIL »

It's possible after completely rethinking your approach to sections where the pod is invaluable for blocking incoming shots / enemies, firing backwards, firing at separate targets simultaneously, clearing out enemies without sending in the ship itself and risking death, blocking off enemy entry points while busy killing other stuff, and sapping large enemies' / bosses' health while fending off other hazards with the ship. And sections where you do much of the above simultaneously. Not even considering charging up bombs here, since high-level play discourages them, but you'll need it for that too. Play without it and you're practically doing two players' work.

Besides bombing, this goes for the first two (arcade) games as well, the only others beside Delta I rate personally. I can't recall if they're completable without the Force, but they're balls-hard even with smart usage of the thing.

So yeah. It's not "just an add-on tbh" when playing without it requires a total rethink of your run. The fact it's even possible to finish Delta without the Force, provided you can go without it, is just good design. Irem could've easily made it completely impossible if they'd felt like it.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by Ghegs »

JGcontraman wrote:But the fact of the matter is its POSSIBLE to beat the game without the pod.
It's also possible to beat Ikaruga without ever firing a shot and the game even acknowledges this, but does this make the shooting an add-on element? 'course not. It's just a way of playing the game in a very different manner, and like others have said, it's a compliment to a game's design when such completely different approaches are still possible. Also, in Delta the Force ties to the scoring system which gives it that much more "validity".

I actually tried playing Delta without the Force, after I had got my 1LC on the game. After a bit of practice I managed to get to Stage 3, but there my brain just exploded. Even after many repeated attempts I just couldn't manage to destroy the boss...
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by bob »

-nevermind nothing to read here-
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by JGcontraman »

Alright, well said, I understand how much harder it can be from that point of view, I still don't see that big of a change in gameplay though besides just using the pod as a barrier. But as I mentioned earlier, the pod is completely mandatory in a game like Gaiares, the problem is, its not usable as abarrier, just to absorb enemy projectile attacks or fling as a boomerang.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by doctorx0079 »

JG, I'm just wondering, how far have you ever got in an R-Type game, approximately?
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by BIL »

JGcontraman wrote:I still don't see that big of a change in gameplay though besides just using the pod as a barrier.
It's effectively a second, remotely controlled ship that can also provide a shield and rear-firing capabilities. In the first two games and Delta it can provide cover fire for the R9 over a wide area. In Delta it'll also seek and destroy enemies independently (RX) or provide an anchored leeching attack + cordon between the ship and enemies (R13). This in addition to everything I mentioned in my last post and all the skills required to effectively swap in and out of different pod configurations on the fly, as NzzpNzzp mentioned, creates more than a small change in gameplay. Smart use of the pod can turn a would-be nightmare of bullets, enemies and claustrophobia into a neatly controlled operation.

I don't know why you're even bringing up Gaiares, other than to inadvertently point out how facile your appreciation of R-Type's pod mechanic is. Game mechanics aren't automatically qualified as deep or interesting by being mandatory, nor do they become fluff because the designers allowed players to devise ways around them.

I have to echo doctorx here... how much of this series have you played? You make it sound like going without a pod is a walk in the park, and maybe it is in the SNES games - I've never bothered with either. It's an absolute trial in I, II and Delta, and again I don't know if it's even possible in the first two. Well done to them if it is.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by JGcontraman »

I didn't say it was a walk in the park, from experiencing the game itself even though personally I take advantage of the pod, I'm just assuming. And even from watching people do it on stream.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by BIL »

A bit pointless to have this discussion then, if it's all speculation on your part.

And I know you didn't literally say it would be a walk in the park - but you made it sound that way. It can be ridiculously complicated to do the simplest things in Delta without a Force equipped, and I imagine you'd need a master's experience to finish either I or II without one. That's why what you're saying is so jarring to those of us familiar with the games.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by renardqueenston »

E. Randy Dupre wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:I mean, for those who like it, does it's "sparse-ness" not bother you any? I think it's a bit inexcusable. In a shump especially.
Honestly? No, not really. The entire thing's like that and I just find it fitting - it's not a glorious explosion of light and sound in honour of the passing of a legendary series, it's a funeral dirge. Okay, that doesn't make for a great shmup, but it does make for a great game. As long as you're prepared to accept that atmosphere can sometimes be as important to the enjoyment of a game as anything else.
a bit late here, but this is how i always perceived Final. it's insanely atmospheric, and if you're somebody that can get lost in beautiful concepts and ominous atmosphere, then it's a really wonderful experience. you kind of have to think outside the shmup box for Final, and i appreciate it for that.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by Darkseed »

I never understood the massive hate this game gets. I mean, some people really go out of their way to diss it hard.

I like it.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by PainAmplifier »

Darkseed wrote:I never understood the massive hate this game gets. I mean, some people really go out of their way to diss it hard.

I like it.
Because it was a shift (slower) than previous games.
Because it was different. (It wasn't bullet hell style, or as bullet filled as previous games in the series...)
Because the pacing wasn't constant. (Some sections felt empty based on ship/difficulty combos, killing things very fast)
Because the coding had a few spots of slowdown. (The battleship on L3 for the main complaint.)
Because they didn't like the last boss. (Once you know what to do it's extremely simple, and it wasn't that complex to begin with.)
Because it wasn't 'hard' enough. (Seriously, not all of us can 1CC the TLB of a Cave game. Please stop hating games/gamers that can't do the same...)
*Because they LIKED earlier games in the series more.

Pick any combination of the above. They cover most of the reasons for the 'hate'.


It's not that different from music. Take Metallica for example. Even though the Black album was pretty good in and of itself, the change/direction taken from Master Of Puppets/And Justice for All was not liked by a significant fraction of people who *already where* fans of the band. Sometimes this is just preference, and sometimes it has a basis in other facts. Like how just about every one agrees that St Anger just sucked (technically/writing/style) and had little to do with previous efforts.

And that I think is the main point. Most of the 'haters' just liked the earlier games, and didn't like Final, therefore they vocalised their unhappiness more and emphasized it. (Relatively.)


I know I've done the same with other games/genre's. Although I do try to be a bit subjective and make a distinction between what is just my preference and what I consider pure technical/design failings.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by ZacharyB »

Retconned or not, the story in R-Type is one of the best in video games. Pure science-fiction. This carried the release game for me; the extra ships and development histories for each one just sealed the deal (I'm a sucker for that kind of diversity and depth).

I think it's just too poetic to be like other shmups. I definitely can't see playing it for score... especially since getting the highest score in a stage seems to require replaying checkpoints.
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Re: R-Type Final really sucks

Post by Emig5m »

Hey guys, old thread, I know... but I found this thread through Google and I'm the worlds #1 fan of R-Type. I actually own the original R-Type Nintendo arcade cabinet. Someone like me who grew up with the original in the arcades will always hold the 1rst one to the highest regards because at the time of its release it had the best graphics, power up systems, gameplay mechanics, music, level and boss designs and the perfect level of difficulty while remaining fun and having a high replay value. I beat R-Type Leo on my very first play-through and I still haven't beat the original! (I said I was the #1 fan, not the best at it, hehe). Thing I hate about most games like this and even the newer R-Types is that they can sometimes try too hard to be overly flashy but end up looking very generic at the same time!? A game like Gradious V sure it looks flashy, but it isn't fun at all to me. And then R-Type Leo....LOL...it's just horrible on every level - everything that makes R-Type 1 a masterpiece is totally the opposite in Leo. It's hard to explain, but the original R-Type just got everything right from powerups/gameplay mechanics, to the music, the artistic style, and level design. Hell, if you want to get down to the nitty gritty, even the arcade machines artwork is bad-ass! It would be awesome if Irem could do more R-Type games but return back to the basic roots of the originals style and gameplay.
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