Is playing for fun != playing for score?

[BulletMagnet]

It probably is. Mainly because whenever anyone raises the Garegga issue on the board, it's almost certainly related to the rank system, and involves the comment "I hate Garegga because I don't understand the rank system!"

If someone decides to hate something because he doesn't understand it, then a semi-tactful "wise up" might be in order, but when someone isn't bashing the game and just wants something clarified, I don't think that type of reaction (or, as has most frequently been the case around here, an even harsher one) is fair...it's not like it's that hard to tell the difference between the two, right? In any case, I can only hope that semantic garbage like this won't keep popping up, and that the forum at large feels at ease to express itself within reason, without fear of unduly offending someone's sensibilities...or do you think it's more likely that I'll obtain the new Garegga world record?

In any case, I offer you my thanks for compiling the ST info and for answering my questions patiently. Simple stuff like this, after all, is a big part of why I (and others, I'm sure) come here.

[Nemo]

The inherent goal of any shmup is to clear it, that goes without saying. Even if you're playing for score, the best score can be obtained by completing the entire game. So everyone that plays the game with any sense is going for an ALL.

Well, not necessarily. The way I play is that I work to improve my score in all stages: an ALL is a nice end product, but not always what I achieve. In Espgaluda for example, a lot of players competing in the highscore thread have already posted ALLs, yet I myself have not managed to clear the game once, no word of a lie.

My personal record is 42mil though. When I eventually ALL (whenever that is) it'll probably be a high scoring one.

The way I play and learn a game is always centered around achieving the best possible score in all stages through refinement, therefore it takes me fucking forever to clear a game, as I'm trying to put together the best possible run, bit by bit. My methodology when it comes to learning a game is a slow, painstaking one, centered around high scoring, learning systems and tricks to maipulate them. Other players probably just go for an ALL first, then refine later.

That's fine if you play like that, but that still doesn't change the fact that clearing the game is an innate goal in shmups and something every shmup player is trying for. If you get 42 mil. in Galuda w/o beating the game, you're score would be higher by doing what you did in that run and clearing the game. The bottom line is that anyone playing for score is playing to clear the game, but everyone playing to clear the game isn't necessarily playing for score.

Plus, why would someone play one way initially, get good at it, then throw it out the window and do something completely different later.

Actually, it was Clover-TAC that stated that he always played credits in different ways when he was learning a game. By doing that, you pick up on tricks, new strategies and routes that you can later bring together into an optimal strategy.

Different methodology works for different types of players, depending on how you like to learn new information (experimentation, repetition, refinement, or a combination of all of these).

People do learn games different ways and that's great. In Garegga, however, playing the game while ignoring rank really offers no substantial benefit. Anything positive you can learn from playing without rank manipulation can be learned while playing with rank manipulation, and since rank manipulation is the way to success, why even spend any amount of time ignoring it if you know about its existence. So no matter how you look at it, if you're aware of how important rank is in Garegga and you actually want to complete the game, it's way more benfitial to learn to play while manipulating it from the beginning.

[Icarus]

People do learn games different ways and that's great. In Garegga, however, playing the game while ignoring rank really offers no substantial benefit. Anything positive you can learn from playing without rank manipulation can be learned while playing with rank manipulation, and since rank manipulation is the way to success, why even spend any amount of time ignoring it if you know about its existence. So no matter how you look at it, if you're aware of how important rank is in Garegga and you actually want to complete the game, it's way more benfitial to learn to play while manipulating it from the beginning.

Well actually, playing Garegga and ignoring rank does offer a benefit in that, if you're observant enough, you can see what rank affects in the game. From there, you can apply the knowledge of rank control to improve your own overall strategies, and from there, you can see what rank control methods actively change in-game. Attempting to utilise advanced rank control methods without actually experiencing the full effects of the game's difficulty firsthand and beforehand is where most players start to fail at this game, given the game's variable nature.

Yes, "advanced" is overhighlighted, because the techniques and skills required to implement them do require a good level of control, observation and strategy.

The one failing I see with players starting out or learning Garegga is that they dive into the game with rank control methods without really knowing just how rank control can affect the game. It's the fault of all other game genres that gives gamers the idea that you can complete ANYTHING by reading a guide. All a guide gives you is the knowledge, you have to apply that knowledge yourself. To apply that knowledge, you have to have the experience and the observation to back it up.

Garegga is far too random in nature to follow bit-by-bit a "go here, miss this item, blow yourself up here" guide. So, if anything, it's better to learn to play the game without before you learn to play the game with.

[Lyle]

I've always considered scoring in shmups as some sort of add-on that I do after completing the game. Perhaps because I discovered the genre at a time when it was all about not being shot. It took me some time to realise how deep modern shmups tend to be. But even now, I keep on playing DDP, Cyvern or Battle Garegga as if they were old-school games, which is a bit of a waste, I admit it.

Part of the misunderstanding may come from the fact that as they are roughly speaking two generations of shmups, there may be two generations of shmup players. If you went into shmups in the 80s, I think you're more likely to see the genre as it was at that time. Same thing for the post mid-90s era.

[sethsez]

I think part of the divide here comes from how you view scores.

Personally, I've always seen scores as a sort of final tally to show how you did. I don't play for the score, the score just exists to show how I'm playing. This is why I'm not a big fan of overly complex or obtuse scoring systems, because it feels like the game is designed around the score, which feels like putting the cart before the horse to me.

It's like school in a way. Do you study to get good grades, or are grades just a measure of what you've learned? It's all in how you view the purpose.

[incognoscente]

...if you're aware of how important rank is in Garegga and you actually want to complete the game...

Why you think my initial post was anything other than a way to demonstrate to a player how important rank is in Garegga, I'm not sure I'll ever know.


Rest assured, I had a much longer response than this, but I have decided, at least for now, not to post it.

[Randorama]

pathetic attempt of trolling from someone who doesn't have a clue

yes Shatterhand, continue being a like you are, thanks for your trolling

[Randorama]

I was not saying that "longevity" raises rank, just gaining extends without dying. Obviously, it´s possible to survive for quite a while without gaining extends.
I haven´t achieved the phenomenon of gaining several extends in quick succession by myself, only seen it on video. But while we´re on the subject of "everything else is wrong"... may I ask how you found these things by yourself? Did you analyze the ASM code on the Garegga board? Measure bullet speeds, divided by number of shots fired in a large spreadsheet?

Gaining extends is a the consequence of getting points, and all the actions involved in getting points increase rank (yes, you need to shoot in order to get points). Unless you aim for a 0 score play, everything you do (like explained in the ST) will increase rank. Virtually, if you don't shoot and just dodge ( i don't think it's possible, would be fun to try), given the bosses to time out, it would be possible to complete the game at the lowest rank level. Also, for raw numbers, the ST should have them (like, options shots give you two points once, etc). If you make a a few counts, you will get a rough idea on how much you're increasing rank by the second or minute (again, ST). If you're asking me to do the math for you, no, sorry, i don't get paid for this. If the ST is missing these values, i'll kill Icarus quickly
then...

atop Mount Olympus, a jerk is a jerk.

Youa re the one sitting of Mount Olympus, students arts kid.You don't understand what has been throughoutly explain and you spend your time trolling on this board because you don't understand. Scores matter, as you are not getting anything. end of the discourse.

I made an honest inquiry about a game (which you claim I refuse to try to unserstand),

You don't understand it, else you would get better scores. If you want to ignore this basic fact you're trolling.

and as a reward for that I end up being beaten over the head with accusations (of all things) of arrogance, and "blaming other people" (for what, I have no idea), and having my original question largely ignored.

You ignore the replies because they don't fit to your false visions of facts, liar.

Score as high as you please; however many games you've mastered, you're simply one of the most incredibly unpleasant people I've ever encountered.

You're not even a person, and beside that, you're the only one treated in this way. A point for meditation, students arts kid.

Most people wouldn't yell at a dog in the same way you've ranted at me time and time again, all over questions about a video game. And quite frankly, any dog you'd treat like this would have gone for your throat by now.

Stop whining, thanks: your behaviour is to be classified as trolling and acting like a victim doesn't work. Also, you say lies and etc etc etc.Also, what other people do is uninfluential, as no one authorizes you to break any rules by general consensus. Are you serious, students arts kid?

I've already gotten an answer (roundabout as it is) to my inquiry, I'm done here. But don't think for a second that once I encounter any other "issues" or whatnot with Garegga or whatever other "pet games" there are on this forum, I'm not going to voice them and try to find an explanation for them, the same as I've done here and elsewhere; when I've done nothing wrong or offensive, I'm not going to change my behavior on account of someone like yourself.

You had to write: " I will stop trolling and provoking people by proposing lies as truth because i can't stand anymore the attitude who can't stand my nonsense".

If my posting stuff like this bothers you so much and you believe that there is absolutely no hope of my ever "getting it,"

There's always hope! Who knows that one day you will finally start understanding what to do in games and stop being yourself?

then avoid the topic next time. I'm sure you've got better things to do than waste time with me; perhaps you need to "get it" and let someone else address my silly questions. Methinks it would make things around here much more pleasant for everyone...if you care in the least about that sort of thing.

No, i don't seriously care about making things pleasant for pathological passive-aggressive persons like you.As long as moderators will not stop continuous reitarations of the same false things in the name of a given principle, i will abuse the same given principle to brilliantly point out how much of a liar you are.

[snap monkey]

You're not even a person

Do you read what you write?

[Randorama]

You're not even a person

Do you read what you write?

Yes, so?

[Icarus]

If the ST is missing these values, i'll kill Icarus quickly

Hey hey hey! No need for violence!
All the numbers are safely stored in the ST, right here.

Yes, everything increases rank in Garegga. In that respect, the previous comments about longevity increasing rank - or surviving on one life for as long as possible - are also pretty correct, considering the only proper way to knock a chunk off the current rank counters is to die. If you haven't died for a long time, but are racking up points and lives, then obviously the game is going to go apeshit. The same holds true if you have lasted a long time on the current life, but are scoring very badly.

Missing maximum value Medals does take a bit off the rank, but not as much as dying does.

Players using ships with an area bomb Weapon - Gain and Bornnam primarily, Chitta and Silver Sword maybe - can purposefully hoard lives and utilise maximum rank to gain millions and millions of points from exploitation of stage 7's midboss Black Heart Mk2, and more specifically, the rain of destroyable bombs it spews out.

...

Oh, and regarding the 0pt play, I had a go trying one a long time ago, when 0pt plays were being discussed. IIRC, if it wasn't for the kamikaze enemies flying around in stage 1, it might be possible. (It's very easy to time out the first boss on a 0pt play, but getting to the boss itself is a bit trickier).

[system11]

I'm amazed you all managed to argue about Garegga (again) without even one person mentioning that no matter how broken and fascist the ranking may or may not be, no matter how nonsensical or logical killing yourself may be, there's one flaw that spoils the game far more.

Invisible bullet syndrome. And yes, I know the Saturn one has an option to turn them into things you can actually see. Let's all reflect for a moment on why they added that hidden option at all

[Dylan1CC]

Admin thought it would be a good idea to ask all involved to please calm down and try to enjoy the thread, assuming you still want it open and it attracts any new posts.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

As my scores are basically the best ones around, in the games i play and played...

I don't care if you have the highest score on the Garegga machine atop Mount Olympus, a jerk is a jerk. I made an honest inquiry about a game (which you claim I refuse to try to unserstand), and as a reward for that I end up being beaten over the head with accusations (of all things) of arrogance, and "blaming other people" (for what, I have no idea), and having my original question largely ignored. Score as high as you please; however many games you've mastered, you're simply one of the most incredibly unpleasant people I've ever encountered. Most people wouldn't yell at a dog in the same way you've ranted at me time and time again, all over questions about a video game. And quite frankly, any dog you'd treat like this would have gone for your throat by now.

I've already gotten an answer (roundabout as it is) to my inquiry, I'm done here. But don't think for a second that once I encounter any other "issues" or whatnot with Garegga or whatever other "pet games" there are on this forum, I'm not going to voice them and try to find an explanation for them, the same as I've done here and elsewhere; when I've done nothing wrong or offensive, I'm not going to change my behavior on account of someone like yourself.

If my posting stuff like this bothers you so much and you believe that there is absolutely no hope of my ever "getting it," then avoid the topic next time. I'm sure you've got better things to do than waste time with me; perhaps you need to "get it" and let someone else address my silly questions. Methinks it would make things around here much more pleasant for everyone...if you care in the least about that sort of thing.

To Randorama...
Dude, seriously, the only thing "higher" and "bigger" than your scores in games... is your ego!
Try and keep it "down to earth" a little.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Playing for score is always fun and cool, but, personally I really don't care...as my main goal is to 1CC any game.

Maybe after I'm consistantly 1CC/completing the game, then I'll focus more on score. Still, I would feel better about myself for getting farther in a game, than getting a high score only halfway through it.
However, when I play for score, I usually always make stupid mistakes as most games require more than enough concentration just for survival alone.

Rank doesn't really bother me much at all, the game is either easy or hard to begin with.

[icepick]

I think part of the divide here comes from how you view scores.

Those are some good points! The thing is, some of these games (or many of them) are designed around scoring--It's an addition to the features which causes a game to stand out from others, and what adds sort of a third (or fourth) dimension to the shooting and dodging (and whatever unique characteristic is present). Not to mention, when properly implemented it will be a very tangible indication of how well a player has played, as you brought up.

I admit to not really focusing on score until recently, especially when considering games like Sonic the Hedgehog. I don't think that game's designed around the score, and it seems obvious because when I try to imagine going through for highest score, it really doesn't seem interesting at all. Shooting games are different, though, because scoring can be synonymous with how the designers wanted players to play the game, although I'm pretty sure that designers like to be surprised by how players use the elements which are presented to them, of course.

The difference between school and these games, though, is that in certain schooling, one can get good grades without actually learning. On the other hand, a similarity is that one can do very well in either, but if they're not measured by their particular qualities and strengths, they'll appear to turn up short at first glance from most of the world. So, playing in a way that a game can measure your performance by will show that you've learned to play the game the way that it might've been meant to be played, but as yet, there's no way for the game to measure exactly how much fun you're having.

Maybe playing for fun is not equal to playing for score because the two are different... You're not having fun because you're scoring well, you're having fun because you're playing well. With scoring comes satisfaction, as opposed to fun. So, playing for fun is not equal to playing for score, but playing for score is equal to playing for satisfaction, though playing for fun can result in satisfaction. It's like the distinction between sensation and perception.



I was thinking that games like Dodonpachi are sounding to me like one has to follow a preset route to make it through the game properly, and that this was starting to turn me off to the idea of someday getting and playing the game... But, really--Isn't this what we do, anyway? We find our own preferred routes through games, hopefully discovering the "right" one, and if we don't, then our score and longevity may suffer a bit, but we still have fun.

I was also thinking previously that I'd perhaps like to put Battle Garegga on my list of "future games to get," but I'm not so sure, now.

... Invisible what?!

[raiden]

Battle Garegga has no invisible bullets. I´m especially surprised reading this from a person of your experience, Bloodflower. Invisible bullets are present in Battle Bakraid, where some of the bullets will disappear for a few moments when there are very many of them on screen, and you can still get hit by those invisible bullets and die. Even that is not as much a problem as it may sound like, if you get used to the game you know where the bullets are, also when they´re invisible, and so you can learn dodge invisible bullets. That´s right.

What Battle Garegga has are bullets of little contrast to the background. It´s a game full of grey-brown backgrounds with grey-brown bullets in it. But they are not invisible, they have a clearly discernable shape and don´t disappear. However, if you
- are sitting away from the screen
- play in yoko mode
- use a substandard picture signal like FBAS
- or are simply a little tired and can´t concentrate very well
you may find that even though you can see all the bullets while the game is paused, playing it you don´t recognize them quickly enough to dodge them, so they might seem invisible to you, while technically, they are not.

[icepick]

Playing for score is always fun and cool, but, personally I really don't care...as my main goal is to 1CC any game.

Or to 1CC all of it except for one level.

I'm kidding, I'm kidding! I jest because I care! You may hit me.

Maybe after I'm consistantly 1CC/completing the game, then I'll focus more on score. Still, I would feel better about myself for getting farther in a game, than getting a high score only halfway through it.

Oh, interesting point! Psyvariar, where getting to the point of playing for score is mostly what motivates players to learn more about the game's feature mechanic, at which point the scoring can become unassuming again, since the player can now play for fun with the newly-learned method of play, and scoring higher than before is only a byproduct. In this scenario, playing for score can result in playing for fun, but not necessarily vice-versa.

"What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?"
"No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to."

(That reference was meant for Psyvariar, as opposed to Bakraid. The whole "dodging invisible bullets" thing totally shames the quote, though.)

Whoever controls the neutrino, controls the universe. I mean the spice. I mean...

What Battle Garegga has are bullets of little contrast to the background. It´s a game full of grey-brown backgrounds with grey-brown bullets in it. But they are not invisible, they have a clearly discernable shape and don´t disappear.

Well, that's good to hear (to me). Actually, when I first started playing Giga Wing, I was having trouble picking the bullets out, but it took only a short while to adjust from what I had been playing previously (Psyvariar 2, Shikigami no Shiro II).

PS- Hi admin!

[Icarus]

I find the argument about the so-called "invisible bullets" in Garegga just as ignorant as the argument about rank, if not more ignorant. Yes, granted, Garegga does have small, thin, very difficult to see bullets, but with a bit of training, you can learn to see these bullets. Either that, or you need a bigger TV. Or need to turn up the brightness on your screen. Or sit closer to the TV. Or turn on the Red Ball option.

Or need to wear glasses

There's really not that many flying around until stage 6 and 7. If Garegga was a bullet swarm shmup like Cave or Takumi's offerings, but still had the realistic bullets, then your argument would probably be more understandable.

Personally, I find it far harder to play Cave games where I need to concentrate on using my small hit center to navigate through bullet clouds, than playing Garegga with the original shape bullets and stacks of shrap flying around.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

I find the argument about the so-called "invisible bullets" in Garegga just as ignorant as the argument about rank, if not more ignorant. Yes, granted, Garegga does have small, thin, very difficult to see bullets, but with a bit of training, you can learn to see these bullets. Either that, or you need a bigger TV. Or need to turn up the brightness on your screen. Or sit closer to the TV. Or turn on the Red Ball option.

Or need to wear glasses

There's really not that many flying around until stage 6 and 7. If Garegga was a bullet swarm shmup like Cave or Takumi's offerings, but still had the realistic bullets, then your argument would probably be more understandable.

Personally, I find it far harder to play Cave games where I need to concentrate on using my small hit center to navigate through bullet clouds, than playing Garegga with the original shape bullets and stacks of shrap flying around.

The bullets in Garrega are hard to see because they blend in with all the shrapnel flinging around.
I have the Saturn version, and even tough the Saturn has a very clear resolution, I choose to turn the red ball option "on".
Maybe if one is playing the PCB with a real nice monitor, the bullets might be easier to distinguish.

[system11]

What Battle Garegga has are bullets of little contrast to the background. It´s a game full of grey-brown backgrounds with grey-brown bullets in it. But they are not invisible, they have a clearly discernable shape and don´t disappear. However, if you
- are sitting away from the screen
- play in yoko mode
- use a substandard picture signal like FBAS
- or are simply a little tired and can´t concentrate very well
you may find that even though you can see all the bullets while the game is paused, playing it you don´t recognize them quickly enough to dodge them, so they might seem invisible to you, while technically, they are not.

This is exactly what I meant - I'm far from the only person to make the complaint too. I've played Garegga on the Saturn - I liked it enough that I bought the PCB and ran it on a decent 25" screen. I still -always- had problems with those brown bullets - so much so that I'd actually jump in surprise when being killed by them.

[system11]

I find the argument about the so-called "invisible bullets" in Garegga just as ignorant as the argument about rank, if not more ignorant. Yes, granted, Garegga does have small, thin, very difficult to see bullets, but with a bit of training, you can learn to see these bullets. Either that, or you need a bigger TV. Or need to turn up the brightness on your screen. Or sit closer to the TV. Or turn on the Red Ball option.

Or need to wear glasses

In shock news, it has been discovered that while some people are taller or shorter than other people, some peoples eyes also pick out some details better than others. Only an ignoramus would fail to consider this. There's a reason so many people have mentioned it in the past, and I suspect that same reason was behind the hidden option in the Saturn port.

[sethsez]

I find the argument about the so-called "invisible bullets" in Garegga just as ignorant as the argument about rank, if not more ignorant. Yes, granted, Garegga does have small, thin, very difficult to see bullets, but with a bit of training, you can learn to see these bullets.

This is a fault in the game's design, not a fault of the player, and it's why the red ball option was added for the Saturn port. Having bullets that blend in with the background and look almost exactly like shrapnel (which there's a ton of) is an extremely basic game design faux pas, especially when said game has one hit kills.

It's possible to overlook or get used to, but people shouldn't have to.

[Shatterhand]

pathetic attempt of trolling from someone who doesn't have a clue

yes Shatterhand, continue being a like you are, thanks for your trolling

Ya know, anyone would just need to read the post you made exactly after this one....

and then read something like this:

Haha, that is Rando on a good day Frequent this place a bit longer, and get to know him, and you'll understand why he's like that

And then it becomes clear who really is the "troll"...

If my "trolling" was written in a serious way (Which obviously wasn't the intention), it would be just SO MUCH like your last post, that's not even funny.

I always ignored the way you treat people here because it had never been into my direction. But I think you really got too far here...

I don't give a damn if you write the greatest STs ever, or if you have the greatest scores around. BM said it all: A jerk is still a jerk, and you are pretty good in that too.

I really think you should take twitchdoctor advice:

Dude, seriously, the only thing "higher" and "bigger" than your scores in games... is your ego!
Try and keep it "down to earth" a little.

639582*1
Or maybe just leave, and stay where the true gods of enlightment, those who can see beyond the brown bullets of Garegga , and leave us, poor mortals who can't even be considered HUMAN PERSONS, unworthy people who can't even 1CC Sokyugurentai, alone.

[Randorama]

YOU know, anyone would just need to read the post you made exactly after this one....

did you post anything useful or showing any rationality since you're here? No.Any other comments?

and then read something like this:

Haha, that is Rando on a good day Frequent this place a bit longer, and get to know him, and you'll understand why he's like that

And then it becomes clear who really is the "troll"...

Please, get serious for 1 second and...

If my "trolling" was written in a serious way (Which obviously wasn't the intention), it would be just SO MUCH like your last post, that's not even funny.

There's one problem, you lack the aformentioned rationality to write a serious post. Not only that, you'v taken the side of a user who spends its time yelling at "rank", without showing any understanding of the issue or any progress (nor any will to progress, as clearly explained in one of its posts).

I always ignored the way you treat people here because it had never been into my direction. But I think you really got too far here...

Whereas you and your friend can post the same pointless and unfounded comments over and over again and be right. Smart!

I don't give a damn if you write the greatest STs ever, or if you have the greatest scores around. BM said it all: A jerk is still a jerk, and you are pretty good in that too.

Yes, you and your friend. How can you pretend to make such comments, when you still are at zero comprehension of issues and you take the wrong side every single time? Are you insane?

Or maybe just leave, and stay where the true gods of enlightment, those who can see beyond the brown bullets of Garegga , and leave us, poor mortals who can't even be considered HUMAN PERSONS, unworthy people who can't even 1CC Sokyugurentai, alone.

No, you are the ones who have to go, as it is clear that insisinting on the same issues, disregarding facts and how things work is uneducated, childish and even pretty insane (ah, and against the rules).I'm tired of you drones that inflate threads with your angst at what you don't understand (which alone, defines bigots, the ones going around witch-hunting the "warlocks"). I am tired of reading threads that aren't related to shmups in the main chat, i'm tired of fanboys who rant about consoles and idiots who feel proud in being obssessed by resolution and 2d graphics.

Shmups are videoGAMES. Games have RULES, as you can spend your whole life dissing how a game works and it will still work in that way. The only thing that can get you anywhere is thinking, understanding, and see if what you think is valid and works. Rest is bullshit, of the worst kind: trying to hoard people against phantasms (the evil rank, the damn witches, etc) is completely irrational and typical of the worst forms of populistic propaganda.


There's one comment that actually shows what really is the fun behind understanding games (and, in some cases, this means playing them for score):

It depends on the game. Experimentation is key. As I get closer to 1 crediting Batsugun I'm amazed I am not as sick of the game considering it's the only shooter I've been playing for a month. It has actually gotten progressively more enjoyable as I have played it and sharpened my tactics.

Again, i repeat, knowledge is love...and given your comments, ignorance is hate.

And for this comment alone, i win the shmups prize in "New Age phrase of the year"

[raiden]

Shmups are videoGAMES. Games have RULES, as you can spend your whole life dissing how a game works and it will still work in that way. The only thing that can get you anywhere is thinking, understanding, and see if what you think is valid and works. Rest is bullshit, of the worst kind: trying to hoard people against phantasms (the evil rank, the damn witches, etc) is completely irrational and typical of the worst forms of populistic propaganda.

that´s one way of viewing things: games as eternal works of art and people destined to follow their rules. But another way of viewing things is that rules evolve around the people playing the game, and if a majority of people voices their opinion of certain rules being a bad idea, the rules can change in future games. Battle Garegga will stay the same game it is now, but that doesn´t imply criticism is meaningless. So there is reason to argue, and if you can´t convince BulletMagnet or others that rank is indeed a good idea, don´t blame it on them: it´s your own fault.
That´s the way communication works - if people don´t understand you, proceeding to call them all stupid is the way to insanity.

[Randorama]

[

that´s one way of viewing things: games as eternal works of art and people destined to follow their rules.

Are you sure that a thing like destiny exist?No one forces to survive when playing a game, eh!

But another way of viewing things is that rules evolve around the people playing the game, and if a majority of people voices their opinion of certain rules being a bad idea, the rules can change in future games.

How old are you, 5?

If japanese pleayers don't play a a game because they don't like how it works, programmers will take note as they need to eat. Westerners dumb people don't count, simple as that!

Battle Garegga will stay the same game it is now, but that doesn´t imply criticism is meaningless.

Ahahahah! Are you serious? Do you really think that making up things on an english-made forum will influence anything? "Let's repeat, making up things".How can you compare the "opinion" of someone who gets the scores and thus knows the rules with someone who doesn't get anything?

So there is reason to argue, and if you can´t convince BulletMagnet or others that rank is indeed a good idea, don´t blame it on them: it´s your own fault.

Please. shut up. If i explain how a thing works and people refuse to understand, it's their fault. Try to develop some I.Q. and stop insulting yourself with pure relativistic exercises, please.

That´s the way communication works - if people don´t understand you, proceeding to call them all stupid is the way to insanity.

Communication works in this way, if you ask for explanations and then you ignore them because they don't fit your narrowminded view of the world, you're insane, like in your and other people's case, it seems. You're very funny in your surreal pretense to show some basic knowledge of thinking, but do you really want to explain me my work?
Now, there's some arrogance!

Ah, i forgot, "everything is relative", like every "party-going philosopher" says

[Zach Keene]

All right, I think we've let this flamewar continue long enough. Thread locked.