7th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Results

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Danbo
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Post by Danbo »

Remove the Treasure games and thats a dang good list. Garegga #1!
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sikraiken
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Post by sikraiken »

jonny5 wrote: and i dont see how this list can be considered a joke....it was voted on by the members of this site...it represents the overall opinion of the voters...
Just because it represents the population here doesn't mean it's necessarily a good/great/whatever list.

Thanks incognoscente for putting this all together though, I know it takes time, even if I do bash it.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Super Laydock wrote:says a Mars Matrix lover.... :roll: ;)
It's fine art compared to Border Down. That game looks like diseases.
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professor ganson
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Post by professor ganson »

jonny5 wrote: and i dont see how this list can be considered a joke....it was voted on by the members of this site...it represents the overall opinion of the voters....

the fact that older games have been overshadowed by newer and better releases is natural....such is progression

there are shmups, and then there is cave.....
It's a fucking joke. I really can't say anything good about the list with the exception that it's nice to see Garegga at the top. Just a fucking joke.
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Super Laydock
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Post by Super Laydock »

Rob wrote:
Super Laydock wrote:says a Mars Matrix lover.... :roll: ;)
It's fine art compared to Border Down. That game looks like diseases.
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jpj
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Post by jpj »

i think what they did with sheffield was quite amazing actually :lol: but there's more to being a good game than having a nice colour pallette

i voted when the polls were on their first page, and i think i matched all the top 10, and got something like 15 of the top 25. so i guess i'm quite "in tune" with the forum, for want of a better term. although i find it weird when people compare their own opinions to the majority, and if they're not in agreement, it's always the majority that is wrong ... :lol: you can't be an esoteric nerd one minute, and then complain when you're not populist the next

i'm shocked ketsui did so well. this officially means we're cooler than germany and sweden... :wink: and dangun, garegga, and ibara going strong as well :) i think there's some kinda nerd backlash going on against ddp which is making it easier for other games to get the #1 recently, what with the vote weighting as well.

wake me up in 12 months time and we'll do a MMP campaign :)
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Ruldra
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Post by Ruldra »

Garegga at #1? Holy crap!
And Ketsui did FAR better than I'd expect.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

jpj wrote:i think there's some kinda nerd backlash going on against ddp which is making it easier for other games to get the #1 recently, what with the vote weighting as well.
#2. A backlash could only occur with negative voting. I'd be too busy down-voting ESPs and Mushi to care. At least DDP was the first game that really feels like a Cave game instead of Tooplain.
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kengou
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Post by kengou »

In general this is one of the better lists I've seen here... except for Garegga at #1. wtf?! Wayyyyy too high, I don't personally even think it should be on this list because of the ridiculous mechanics, but I guess a lot of people like suiciding intentionally due to a brutally stupid rank system.
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jpj
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Post by jpj »

sorry, what i meant is that 6.42 seems like quite a low score. i had a quick look at the other years and i think it's the lowest scoring #1 so far. but the same titles (ddp) are still in the same sort of position. did ddp get less actual votes, or is it just getting less "weight" per vote?

kengou: i've got no problem with garegga being up at #1. it took me a long time to get into it, but it is good fun (with the right ship) and it's got an awesome soundtrack. only thing is that a lot of yagawa games follow a similar formula and garegga, at least visually, is looking pretty dated. but it makes me think to my dilemna in the ikaruga/silvergun thread.. i think batrider and definitely ibara are better games (and MMP actually), but do you vote for the game that massively improved and refinined the formula? or the one where it began? without one you couldn't have the other... and i know a lot of people try to focus on "classics" or titles that made a big impact on the genre as a whole; and truthfully, i don't think raizing were ever as popular after garegga..
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Garegga has the best gfx/ost combo on the list (maybe Rayforce). Just look at Gun Frontier. That's a dated abomination. The dark and detailed look of Garegga is perfect for it. If it was remade by Cave today it'd probably look like an Easter decoration. Then you'd have to listen to squealing and shit. I hate Ibara.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Still no Vasara or Cotton...all of you will pay for this!

Thanks to incog for all the hard work, and the coming bellyaching which will inexplicably somehow all be aimed at you. ;)
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Post by innerpattern »

professor ganson wrote:Esprade, Guwange, Dangun Feveron, Espgaluda, Mushi...? Utter silliness. I think this list is a complete joke.
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Post by Kollision »

This Cave adoration is beyond my comprehension, FFS !!!
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kengou
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Post by kengou »

jpj wrote:do you vote for the game that massively improved and refinined the formula? or the one where it began? without one you couldn't have the other... and i know a lot of people try to focus on "classics" or titles that made a big impact on the genre as a whole; and truthfully, i don't think raizing were ever as popular after garegga..
To me, "top 25 shmups of all time" means best games, period. So if Ibara or Soukyugurentai is better than Garegga (which imo they are), then they should be ranked higher, regardless if Garegga began the Raizing formula. But, of course, we all have differing opinions about what "top 25 shmups of all time" means, and we're all allowed to have those different opinions and vote for whatever we want.
"I think Ikaruga is pretty tough. It is like a modern version of Galaga that some Japanese company made."
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professor ganson
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Post by professor ganson »

Why I think the list matters: When I first came to this site, I looked to the top 25 as containing the stuff that, as a beginner, I needed to get to know. After all, this is the list of shmup experts and extreme fans. To this day I think of the top 25 as serving as a face to the outside world: here's what shmupping at its best looks like. Yeah, we look good. Or, maybe not so good after all...

Where I think the list goes wrong: It's natural to want the list to look more like yours, perhaps. In my case, though, I want the list to look more expert than mine. I want it to correct for all the mistakes on my list. and to remove the idiosyncracies. But rather than individual mistakes getting corrected, they seem to get compounded. The most important sort of mistake I have in mind is failure to make a thoughtful all-things-considered judgment. In my opinion, each person's list is supposed to capture an all-things-considered judgment about which shmups are best. So you don't just list what you've been enjoying most lately or what packs the most thrills. You answer the question with a view to your life of playing as a whole, with a view to the history of the genre as a whole, with a view to greatest graphics, greatest scoring, greatest soundtrack, sound effects... You have to weigh all of that in. Further, you really ought to have played well over 100 shmups with some interest and dedication. You do all of this with some degree of seriousness and thoughtfulness.

At the end of this do you have just one game (R-Type) from the period when shmups actually mattered to the gaming community at large? Do you really have nearly 50% of the games from one developer? Do you really include Mushi? For some people the answer to these is yes. Fine. And some people still would vote for Bush if they had it all to do over again. My point is just that I don't think people take their voting responsibility very seriously. And perhaps they shouldn't because it doesn't matter all that much. It only matters to fools like me who want the list to be useful for newcommers and to be impressive for those who will take the time to work through it.
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Aquas
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Post by Aquas »

That's a lot of Cave...

Official interpretation of this year's result http://2dgaming.site90.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=587
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ncp
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Post by ncp »

Garegga deserves number 1. I like the list for the most part. People are complaining about too much Cave, looks like a case of POPULAR=BAD mentality (Edit: I'm going to get flamed for this, I'm sure, especially with a DDP picture as my forum avatar :roll: . I just don't understand why people think it's so bad that a list can have so many games from one company. It's not like there's 11 of the same game but with different version numbers on the list. They're all different games, they just happen to be made by the same company, they don't even all have the same staff...). People are complaining about too many new games, not enough old-school, when really this is a "top 25 of all-time", you have to accept the fact that some people will vote for "top 25 favorites" while others will vote for "top 25 best-games-for-their-time". Technological advances in hardware as well as being able to draw influences from older games (and improve upon them) will inevitably result in more popularity among recent games. Just because the earlier Gradius games pioneered the options doesn't mean that I don't like Gradius 5 more, due to its new take on the much older options system, along with its updated graphics and more refined gameplay. Okay, I'm ranting. I'm done I guess. I didn't even vote. :lol:

2nd edit: Also, games with ports will invariably score higher because more people have played them (with the exception of Ketsui but we all know what happened there). It's a flaw, but hey, what can you do about it? Nothin'.
Last edited by ncp on Tue May 26, 2009 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Limbrooke »

The overall opinion prefers Guwange over Strikers 1945 2. Eh, not like this list means a whole lot anyway, I cast my vote and if people have enough sense, so be it, otherwise par for the course in not agreeing at all with all the games I don't like that somehow define the popular demographic.
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jonny5
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Post by jonny5 »

professor ganson wrote:Why I think the list matters: When I first came to this site, I looked to the top 25 as containing the stuff that, as a beginner, I needed to get to know. After all, this is the list of shmup experts and extreme fans. To this day I think of the top 25 as serving as a face to the outside world: here's what shmupping at its best looks like. Yeah, we look good. Or, maybe not so good after all...

Where I think the list goes wrong: It's natural to want the list to look more like yours, perhaps. In my case, though, I want the list to look more expert than mine. I want it to correct for all the mistakes on my list. and to remove the idiosyncracies. But rather than individual mistakes getting corrected, they seem to get compounded. The most important sort of mistake I have in mind is failure to make a thoughtful all-things-considered judgment. In my opinion, each person's list is supposed to capture an all-things-considered judgment about which shmups are best. So you don't just list what you've been enjoying most lately or what packs the most thrills. You answer the question with a view to your life of playing as a whole, with a view to the history of the genre as a whole, with a view to greatest graphics, greatest scoring, greatest soundtrack, sound effects... You have to weigh all of that in. Further, you really ought to have played well over 100 shmups with some interest and dedication. You do all of this with some degree of seriousness and thoughtfulness.

At the end of this do you have just one game (R-Type) from the period when shmups actually mattered to the gaming community at large? Do you really have nearly 50% of the games from one developer? Do you really include Mushi? For some people the answer to these is yes. Fine. And some people still would vote for Bush if they had it all to do over again. My point is just that I don't think people take their voting responsibility very seriously. And perhaps they shouldn't because it doesn't matter all that much. It only matters to fools like me who want the list to be useful for newcommers and to be impressive for those who will take the time to work through it.
everything you say makes sense...im just not sure you are taking into account that cave is what is drawing new people to this genre....
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

jonny5 wrote:cave is what is drawing new people to this genre....
Dozens, at the very least.
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nimitz
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Post by nimitz »

to professor ganson,
What you are asking for is judge/panel based top 25.

This top 25 is obviously based on popularity and it wont include many "classics".

That being said, popularity does say something about these games, all the games in the top 25 list have some obvious qualities and are "good" shmups. Even if I don't agree with all of them, I do understand why people voted for them.



I think it would be interesting to see such a top 25 list made by a handful of people that would be debated to form something that would represent the evolution and the genre as a whole.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

professor ganson wrote:But rather than individual mistakes getting corrected, they seem to get compounded.
Then maybe they're not actually mistakes?

And comparing a top 25 submission to a Bush vote? That's way harsh - at least Garegga et al didn't "earn" their spots due to a recount being warranted but not allowed. :P

Seriously, though, I think this list gives newcomers a decent place to begin - and trust me, there are plenty of people around here who want to make sure that games which don't make the list get noticed too, so if anyone sticks around for a little bit they'll get a sense of what's out there, and be able to try them out and decide their preferences for themselves.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

nimitz wrote:I think it would be interesting to see such a top 25 list made by a handful of people that would be debated to form something that would represent the evolution and the genre as a whole.
Me too, and I want a part in the process that determines this pompous canon. Silent film = single screen.
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nimitz
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Post by nimitz »

Rob wrote:
nimitz wrote:I think it would be interesting to see such a top 25 list made by a handful of people that would be debated to form something that would represent the evolution and the genre as a whole.
Me too, and I want a part in the process that determines this pompous canon. Silent film = single screen.
I think the judges should be people with more than 3000 posts.

not because they are "right". but because it would make for an "interesting" list.
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Post by Twiddle »

post count != game experience

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Post by Danbo »

Aquas wrote:That's a lot of Cave...

Official interpretation of this year's result http://2dgaming.site90.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=587
raizing game #1 FUCKING CAVE FANBOYS
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Post by dpful »

How has everyone played ketsui? it costs a thousand dollars? I don't have an xbox, did it come out?
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Post by Jockel »

sven666 wrote:gotta say, for the first time ever in this lists history, pretty damn good result! :)
Hurts to see Futari so low, though :/
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Post by The Coop »

I can not take a list, that doesn't have Thunder Force IV in the top 25, seriously.

I'm going to go sulk now.
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