7th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Results

[kengou]

That's not my point, my point is that better games should be ranked higher than older games that might be more historically significant. That's how I feel about the voting, anyway. I actually like Ibara (arrange only) and Soukyugurentai precisely because they are dissimilar to the standard Raizing formula as found in Garegga, Batrider, and Bakraid, and I don't really like that formula.

Here's a question, why do you throw Bakraid in with Garegga and Batrider? How is that game any part of a formula or 'standard' for that matter?

I can understand placing Garegga/Batrider/Ibara on some kind of continuum because scoring in each is based on rank management via suicide/life management, bombing scenery, medal chains and boss milking but Bakraid is totally different. Scoring is primarily based on enemy chaining, there's no scenery to bomb and suiciding is used in a completely different fashion. Outside of the use of suicide and the appearance of medals, how is it part of a formula?

I don't think Bakraid is totally different. There is still medal chaining. There is also the addition of other mechanics onto that formula, though. I understand it has a more complex scoring system, but the foundation of Bakraid's system is still very much like Garegga and Batrider's system.

If you don't agree that's fine, I'm no expert of raizing games. Whether or not Bakraid should be grouped in with Garegga and Batrider has no impact to the point I was trying to make though.

[Limbrooke]

It also seems outside DoDonPachi, Cave seems keen on using the same if not similar characters throughout their games

What the hell does this sentence even mean? Cave barely reuses characters at all between games. There's only even been one series with more than 2 games in it (DDP). This is also a pretty odd claim since, you know, SnS is up to its third game and reuses a fair number of characters between games.

Should I put it in the King's english for you or are you reading too fast? I'm talking about the type of characters not necessarily the same although Mushihimesama, Ibara, Espgaluda, and DeathSmiles all have sequels, .. [Edit: The removed was harsh and I happen to like both Espgaluda and Ibara (probably Pink Sweets too if given the chance to try) and I actually don't believe that statement, it's just annoying to have such useless refute on your behalf] I never said SnS doesn't play to certain character type either, I'm simply pointing out thanks in part to Cave's large library they like the sequel treatment. In fairness I don't really have beef with Cave other than I'm not fond of a chunk of the games scoring style and the fact some people (jonny5 and perhaps yourself and many others) like to jump on the big Cave bandwagon anytime someone tries to stick up for another company in defense.

and with the DeathSmiles series it's undoubtedly the reason why it's so damned popular. That's justification alone why it got a release sooner than Mushihimesama Futari on 360 and it's the newer game. It's not about substance it's about style in that case and that's not what makes a good shooter nor a good incentive to make a game.

Deathsmiles is popular partly because of the characters yes. Characters frequently do sell games, and it's not like SnS itself doesn't play on that fact. Deathsmiles also is popular for OTHER reasons like being fun to play and being able to support a wide range of skill levels, among other things.

Your argument here is literally that, because Cave uses characters to help sell a game, that they are 'style over substance'. Great logic.

I mearly make a point that substance plays a very large in Cave's games and again nowhere do I say SnS does not do this to an extent. The fact SnS is being deemed as a 'doujin' looking game and that Alfa System essentially suck without any reason other than 'opinion' pissed me off and that a very vague and uninsightful post I originally quoted could go on for so long praising Cave and downplaying everything else.

Didn't take Cave long to make DeathSmiles 2 either eh, big surprise there.

That damn Cave, making a sequel to a game that was really popular while the buzz was still going for it. What a bunch of sellouts.

Good, and here I almost thought you didn't understand english at all.

[jonny5]

It also seems outside DoDonPachi, Cave seems keen on using the same if not similar characters throughout their games

What the hell does this sentence even mean? Cave barely reuses characters at all between games. There's only even been one series with more than 2 games in it (DDP). This is also a pretty odd claim since, you know, SnS is up to its third game and reuses a fair number of characters between games.

Should I put it in the King's english for you or are you reading too fast? I'm talking about the type of characters not necessarily the same although Mushihimesama, Ibara, Espgaluda, and DeathSmiles all have sequels, .. [Edit: The removed was harsh and I happen to like both Espgaluda and Ibara (probably Pink Sweets too if given the chance to try) and I actually don't believe that statement, it's just annoying to have such useless refute on your behalf] I never said SnS doesn't play to certain character type either, I'm simply pointing out thanks in part to Cave's large library they like the sequel treatment. In fairness I don't really have beef with Cave other than I'm not fond of a chunk of the games scoring style and the fact some people (jonny4&1/2 and perhaps yourself and many others) like to jump on the big Cave bandwagon anytime someone tries to stick up for another company in defense.

and with the DeathSmiles series it's undoubtedly the reason why it's so damned popular. That's justification alone why it got a release sooner than Mushihimesama Futari on 360 and it's the newer game. It's not about substance it's about style in that case and that's not what makes a good shooter nor a good incentive to make a game.

Deathsmiles is popular partly because of the characters yes. Characters frequently do sell games, and it's not like SnS itself doesn't play on that fact. Deathsmiles also is popular for OTHER reasons like being fun to play and being able to support a wide range of skill levels, among other things.

Your argument here is literally that, because Cave uses characters to help sell a game, that they are 'style over substance'. Great logic.

I mearly make a point that substance plays a very large in Cave's games and again nowhere do I say SnS does not do this to an extent. The fact SnS is being deemed as a 'doujin' looking game and that Alfa System essentially suck without any reason other than 'opinion' pissed me off and that a very vague and uninsightful post I originally quoted could go on for so long praising Cave and downplaying everything else.

Didn't take Cave long to make DeathSmiles 2 either eh, big surprise there.

That damn Cave, making a sequel to a game that was really popular while the buzz was still going for it. What a bunch of sellouts.

Good, and here I almost thought you didn't understand english at all.

what are you on about?

....i made a comment about cave as a developer.....then i was asked to directly compare it to shiki 3.....so i did

i voiced an opinion about the game cuz its all ive got on it.....i didnt like it....i think it feels like doujin.....i am entitled to this opinion

cave games are popular....the 'bandwagon' is so big because a lot of people like their games....it is certainly not just a few of us singing there praise

and then you proceed to go on about cave making sequels.....mean while alfa systems has only really made 3 shmups(that most have heard of) and its one game and 2 subsequent sequels.....

its just odd that most of what you seem to have a problem with in cave games is even more apparent from alfa systems.....

and why do you feel the need to make fun of my name?

all i did was make a comment.....its not even like what i said is controversial.....people like cave....cave makes good games.....most agree on this.....

im not jumping on any bandwagon....i like cave games......simple......

i had nothing to say about any other developer until i was asked.....i could have ignored the question, but i respect prof g's opinions and felt i owed him an answer.....and i answered honestly.....it has nothing to do with me liking cave.....

im not one to go out of my way to talk about games i dislike, but if asked i will share my opinion.....

thats why these arguments are pointless, cuz it all comes down to opinion and personal preference.....

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

Should I put it in the King's english for you or are you reading too fast? I'm talking about the type of characters not necessarily the same although Mushihimesama, Ibara, Espgaluda, and DeathSmiles all have sequels, unlike the bullshit you claim in italics.

I don't really see how Cave recycles character archetypes frequently either. Reco and Palm aren't anything like the characters from Galuda, neither of those are anything like the the characters from Ibara or Pork or Deathsmiles either. If you see some sort of pattern in the 'type' of characters that I don't, feel free to point them out.

Also, nice edits. Let's talk about who is reading too fast

I never said SnS doesn't play to certain character type either, I'm simply pointing out thanks in part to Cave's large library they like the sequel treatment.

Which I don't really see as being a negative at all? There isn't anything wrong with sequels, and Cave does a pretty good job of making their sequels play different and have new characters and all that.

In fairness I don't really have beef with Cave other than I'm not fond of a chunk of the games scoring style and the fact some people (jonny4&1/2 and perhaps yourself and many others) like to jump on the big Cave bandwagon anytime someone tries to stick up for another company in defense.

I think that's perfectly fair and I'm wasn't attacking you based on your preference for games.

Good, and here I almost thought you didn't understand english at all.

Making a sequel to a game that's popular while it's still a big thing isn't 'selling out', it's a just a good idea all around. If you want to bitch about Cave selling out, you are welcome to bitch about how they are just pandering with their character designs these days (which I would definitely agree with).

[Limbrooke]

what are you on about?

....[lots of grammatically incorrect ellipses].....

Your opinion on SnS3/CS3 again is pretty useless and uncalled for. Comparing a commercial game which has seen ports to several (more than 2) systems and even got localized to a 'doujin' is bullshit and what SnS3/CS3 has done in terms of transistion from arcade to home is more than any Cave game can claim to have done. I like Cave but that information about SnS3/CS3 is either batshit insanity or with good reason and I happen to side with the latter. If you don't feel as though SnS3/CS3 is your type of game, that's fine, but if you don't feel there's a reason to put time into to actually form a better opinion then you're way off base in making a statement in the first place. That's not opinion, it's fact.

My feeling is that you like Cave because it's Cave and that's my opinion and honestly I don't really see any merit in that nor do I see because you bought a couple Cave games that you're somehow more justified in this respect.

I don't understand your re-evaluation of the bandwagon concept however, yes, it's a bandwagon because lots of people like Cave so I hope that's clear now. Welcome aboard.

The controversy is non-existant, I am simply very annoyed with your comment on how SnS3/CS3 is described to look amateur and crummy while Cave canst do any wrong. You want to speak about the fallacies the SnS series has, go right ahead, I couldn't care less but the game is far from 'doujin' and is flaws aside a game which Alfa System have made much improved over the earlier titles.

There is no argument either unless you want there to be one but I think you should have better choice of words or spend more time in said game to actually legitimize your voice on it. I suggest you read Icarus' brief review of SnS3, perhaps you'll learn something. As for this discussion I'm done.

I don't really see how Cave recycles character archetypes frequently either. Reco and Palm aren't anything like the characters from Galuda, neither of those are anything like the the characters from Ibara or Pork or Deathsmiles either. If you see some sort of pattern in the 'type' of characters that I don't, feel free to point them out.

Also, nice edits. Let's talk about who is reading too fast

You sonofabitch, I had a feeling this was coming. Anyway, I just mean they play on the use of human-like characters... a lot. I'm in the camp of industrial wasteland/military-ho shooting games so Cave's work in the DonPachi franchise, Dangun, and Ketsui I really appreciate. Not to say the others are lacking due to "the people" but it somewhat detracts. I don't like the characters or the talking in SnS/CS either, it sucks.

Good, and here I almost thought you didn't understand english at all.

Making a sequel to a game that's popular while it's still a big thing isn't 'selling out', it's a just a good idea all around. If you want to bitch about Cave selling out, you are welcome to bitch about how they are just pandering with their character designs these days (which I would definitely agree with).

I guess we agree to disagree. I don't see any reason other than ¥ signs to make DS2 as fast as it was. All the same, I'm glad we cleared that up.

[jpj]

i only played the first stage demo of shiki 3, but it looked quite bland and uninspired on first viewing. qualities that can be associated with doujin games. i think that's the point johnny5 was making. am i allowed to use those words....?

and i don't have any beef with alfa systems. when they finally release shiki 4, i bet it's gonna make shiki 3 look like shiki 2

[moozooh]

Shiki 3 does look rather bland to me as well, although admittedly better than about 90% of doujins I have played.

[Icarus]

i only played the first stage demo of shiki 3, but it looked quite bland and uninspired on first viewing. qualities that can be associated with doujin games.

And yet it still looks - and probably plays - a thousand times better than Deathsmiles 2.

[jonny5]

what are you on about?

....[lots of grammatically incorrect ellipses].....

Your opinion on SnS3/CS3 again is pretty useless and uncalled for. Comparing a commercial game which has seen ports to several (more than 2) systems and even got localized to a 'doujin' is bullshit and what SnS3/CS3 has done in terms of transistion from arcade to home is more than any Cave game can claim to have done. I like Cave but that information about SnS3/CS3 is either batshit insanity or with good reason and I happen to side with the latter. If you don't feel as though SnS3/CS3 is your type of game, that's fine, but if you don't feel there's a reason to put time into to actually form a better opinion then you're way off base in making a statement in the first place. That's not opinion, it's fact.

My feeling is that you like Cave because it's Cave and that's my opinion and honestly I don't really see any merit in that nor do I see because you bought a couple Cave games that you're somehow more justified in this respect.

I don't understand your re-evaluation of the bandwagon concept however, yes, it's a bandwagon because lots of people like Cave so I hope that's clear now. Welcome aboard.

The controversy is non-existant, I am simply very annoyed with your comment on how SnS3/CS3 is described to look amateur and crummy while Cave canst do any wrong. You want to speak about the fallacies the SnS series has, go right ahead, I couldn't care less but the game is far from 'doujin' and is flaws aside a game which Alfa System have made much improved over the earlier titles.

There is no argument either unless you want there to be one but I think you should have better choice of words or spend more time in said game to actually legitimize your voice on it. I suggest you read Icarus' brief review of SnS3, perhaps you'll learn something. As for this discussion I'm done.

I don't really see how Cave recycles character archetypes frequently either. Reco and Palm aren't anything like the characters from Galuda, neither of those are anything like the the characters from Ibara or Pork or Deathsmiles either. If you see some sort of pattern in the 'type' of characters that I don't, feel free to point them out.

Also, nice edits. Let's talk about who is reading too fast

You sonofabitch, I had a feeling this was coming. Anyway, I just mean they play on the use of human-like characters... a lot. I'm in the camp of industrial wasteland/military-ho shooting games so Cave's work in the DonPachi franchise, Dangun, and Ketsui I really appreciate. Not to say the others are lacking due to "the people" but it somewhat detracts. I don't like the characters or the talking in SnS/CS either, it sucks.

Good, and here I almost thought you didn't understand english at all.

Making a sequel to a game that's popular while it's still a big thing isn't 'selling out', it's a just a good idea all around. If you want to bitch about Cave selling out, you are welcome to bitch about how they are just pandering with their character designs these days (which I would definitely agree with).

I guess we agree to disagree. I don't see any reason other than ¥ signs to make DS2 as fast as it was. All the same, I'm glad we cleared that up.

k....for starters my opinion was called for...i was directly asked about it....i did not ever say it was crummy or amateur...i said it felt like doujin....which it does.....again, opinion......apparently you feel doujin is crummy/amateur.....opinion

if i had just made a post saying shiki 3 sucked without playing it very much then you would have a point to make, but as it is i simply shared my opinion based on my experiences with the game when asked.....

and you have seen through me, that is exactly why i like cave games....they are cave games....glad you caught that....but how exactly is liking games made by a particular developer bad? i would like them if they were made by somebody else too.....i like the games.....cave just happens to make them.....i prefer danmaku, and at this point cave does it best....if some other developer comes along and starts making awesome danmaku games, i will be all over that shit too


and i have never, ever said cave can do no wrong and i dont love every cave game.....i did not like ibara(and as such i can assume i wouldnt like pink sweets either), but aside from the yagawa stuff i have no complaints really....well other than the loli-fication.....and based on the info around for DS 2 i definitely would not say cave can do no wrong....

im also not a big fan of dodonpachi......

you may not like how i feel about shiki 3(or the series in general) but its just my opinion, and i never claimed it to be anything else.....what i think of a game doesnt matter to anybody but me.....

although your assumptions on why i like games is amusing

you should come for a meet sometime and perhaps you can show me what im missing with shiki 3.....seriously.....you obviously are passionate about it so it must have something there im missing.....or maybe we just like different games

and you can see how much fun i have playing cave games and you will understand why i like them

[Ed Oscuro]

2009

daioh defense force

watch out kdf

If I can be convinced that disappearing bullets are a MAME artifact, MAYBE.

Ketsui at #4 must feel bittersweet when DDP is at #2.

Eh, anyway, there's lots of games in the list I would never vote for (waaay too much love for ugly Saturn / DC era 3D shmups in the Honourable Mentions, when awesome things like Mahou Daisakusen and borderliners aren't even on the damn list), but I'm not worried.

I'm kinda shocked that RFJ is so low on the list, but I'm not terribly worried about it.

[third_strike]

shiki 3 is nothing new....if you played shiki 2 you can pickup shiki 3 and play it

Nothing is like this after one hard job day!
The problem with shiki is it have not one Type A and one Type B and it fells like one new game for each character. I guess cave never will do one character too complex like Hyuga in fist Shikigami. Well at least the newest cave games have glowing hitbox.

Only for note:
Shikigami no Shiro = the war against the time (the bit hunter).
Shikigami no Shiro 2 = only TBS.
Shikigami no Shiro 3 = Killing fest.

Cool!

[Gwyrgyn Blood]

I guess we agree to disagree. I don't see any reason other than ¥ signs to make DS2 as fast as it was. All the same, I'm glad we cleared that up.

Well I don't disagree that DS2 is pretty much just a cash grab title. I think my original point on this note was that Cave wanting to push for sequels isn't necessarily just a cash grab with no merit or substance to it. I think EOJ or GaijinPunch had made this point, but DS2's success will pretty much prove if Cave is still popular these days based on their games having good gameplay/style or if it's just purely fan pandering now.

As to your other point, it is really sad that every game they do now has to have girl characters in your face or shoehorned in some how, to the point where the games come complete with built in panty shots for clearing levels now.

I also don't get the complaints about SnS looking like a doujin game in comparison to Cave games. Cave has had that awful 'Kong-Country' style art for their sprites for a long time. For some games it works fine (Ketsui, Galuda 2, Ibara), but others often have some embarrassingly bad looking enemies/boss. SnS doesn't look all that bad at all really, and definitely way better than Touhou or anything x.x has done.

[Rob]

i only played the first stage demo of shiki 3, but it looked quite bland and uninspired on first viewing.

The whole first stage, you say! There is more to shooter games than grafix, jpj.

.cave games (aside from the loli-aspects) are new and different with each release......alfa systems keeps re-hashing the same game....

Almost every game I've played of theirs is a mix-and-match of basic instructions: how (hold or tap fire), when (chain), where (proximity) to shoot enemies. What you are supposed to do at any moment is constricted by these rules. Given the rigidity of the level designs to match the rules, character or ship selection is equally limited. I think Dangun is their best for ship selection since you get customizable speed. This is all bland and uninspired, but very technical. Something you can get from many other games. If you just want a technical challenge, they offer some of the greatest, but creative they aren't. Which is why 11 games in the top 25 looks retarded. New and different are not things they (or many "hit" factories) like to do. The bg gfx always looks different, though, yet somehow the same. Maybe cuz it doesn't matter what you are moving over. Even Alfa has tried scenery you can interact with.

Alfa has one minor hit and they stick to it. This makes them not so different. What's different is the less constricting scoring system. It's a bullet grazing game and there are lots of bullets! There are lots of characters, too, and each has a very different style of play. The drawback is that, to accommodate the versatility, the level designs are generic. And the games are fugly.

[BulletMagnet]

And yet it still looks - and probably plays - a thousand times better than Deathsmiles 2.

Right for the big, glowing weak spot, eh?

Anyways, I rather like both Cave and Alfa's stuff...guess that makes me a kinky freak or something.

[louisg]

If I can be convinced that disappearing bullets are a MAME artifact, MAYBE.

Nope, everything starts flickering in Daioh when the shrapnel starts flying.

I'm shocked to see BG take the top spot. Isn't that one pretty ranksploitationy? I like the variety in the list, even though every other game seems to be by Cave (?). It's too bad the Thunderforces got bumped off!

[emphatic]

I prefer CAVE games before SnS and other more complex games, because to me that's what arcade gaming is about. Too many options in an arcade game feels like a console game and kinda stresses me out.

"-Oh my god, which of these fifteen characters do I choose? Oh, no, I have to choose more stuff! Let me waste my time on dodging friggin' bullets instead of "create" the character first, for the love of god!"

This is also why I never play Batrider. And it's a shame, because it looks like a lot of fun, once you get past all the selection "action".

[professor ganson]

Anyways, I rather like both Cave and Alfa's stuff...guess that makes me a kinky freak or something.

Don't get me wrong: I like both as well. My point was just that jonny5 was too quick to insist that Cave is currently king, especially if that's supposed to mean that they make the best recent shooters.

I think we need another shmup-fight thread: Shiki 2 (2003) vs. Mushi (2004). Or maybe Shiki 3 (2005) vs. Futari (2006). Something like that.

[BulletMagnet]

I dunno, do we really need a fight at all? Different people are always going to like one or the other and that's that...what's it gonna prove to anyone? As far as I'm concerned it's just one more thing I need to watch for flames.

[Rob]

I'm shocked to see BG take the top spot. Isn't that one pretty ranksploitationy?

It's the perfect pick, really. I think it's become clear that Garegga is the ultimate cult classic around here. It sustains long-term interest, while I don't see that in a single Cave game. People will play hard for a while, get sick of it and sell all of their junk to next victim. Garegga fans don't get sick of it for some reason. ┐('～`；)┌

[professor ganson]

I dunno, do we really need a fight at all? Different people are always going to like one or the other and that's that...what's it gonna prove to anyone? As far as I'm concerned it's just one more thing I need to watch for flames.

Yeah, you're right, and anyway "fight" is not the word I want. I just enjoy the giving and taking of reasons-- especially when the topic involves my favorite shooters.

[jpj]

i'm not enough of a dork to do the whole multi-quote thing, so bear with me...

i only played the first stage demo of shiki 3, but it looked quite bland and uninspired on first viewing.

The whole first stage, you say! There is more to shooter games than grafix, jpj.

.cave games (aside from the loli-aspects) are new and different with each release......alfa systems keeps re-hashing the same game....

Almost every game I've played of theirs is a mix-and-match of basic instructions: how (hold or tap fire), when (chain), where (proximity) to shoot enemies. What you are supposed to do at any moment is constricted by these rules. Given the rigidity of the level designs to match the rules, character or ship selection is equally limited. I think Dangun is their best for ship selection since you get customizable speed. This is all bland and uninspired, but very technical. Something you can get from many other games. If you just want a technical challenge, they offer some of the greatest, but creative they aren't.

yeah, the demo ends after the first stage, so that's where i played up to. i think i did say it was a "first impression". and maybe i misled you a bit here. i didn't say the grafix were bland, i said "it", ie the game experience, or the "gameplay" if you prefer. i just had a quick razz on it cos it's still on my desktop, and the graphics are a bit mundane. the soundtrack was completely forgettable. and the bullets seemed to be travelling so slow. obviously first levels kinda ease you in, but the demo wasn't doing a great of selling it to me

and yeah dangun's pretty cool. think i've voted for it for the last 3 years. but you're really under-selling cave here by saying they have no creativity, but again it's because your focus is set firmly (and solely) on the scoring system, whilst ignoring everything else. you can call those things superficial if you like, but they are still part of the design elements that make up a game. does guwange really feel like the same game to you as ddp? does esprade feel the same to you as espgaluda? does progear feel like dangun? does pink sweets play like ibara? does futari play like mushi? does daifukkatsu play like muchi pork?

shiki 3 does look better than DS 2 (although i've only seen that one AOU vid). but 1000 times better? there's a lot of gross exageration going on in this thread

[Ed Oscuro]

"-Oh my god, which of these fifteen characters do I choose? Oh, no, I have to choose more stuff! Let me waste my time on dodging friggin' bullets instead of "create" the character first, for the love of god!"

If I had to stick with the same game for years, I would like to have a say in how I play it. APB may or may not have the "perfect ship" for you, but if you mess with the settings a little you can get a team of three clones.

Once you have your setting down pat, you can get into the game quite quickly.

[jonny5]

shiki 2 vs mushi would be an interesting one....id be interested to hear views on both sides of that one.....

shiki 3 vs futari

i dunno...i am biased as only one of them is made by cave but seriously.....im not saying shiki 3 is bad, i should have worded my earlier statements less harshly perhaps, but futari is really good.....

can anybody else with experience with both games chime in on this?

am i way off?

i think i am gonna have to dig out shiki 3 and have a go this weekend.....people seem to really like it, but i didnt see anything special when i played it....hmmmmm.....now im curious

[unsane]

Good job on the quick results compilation!

I'm very happy with this year's list, thanks to #16-17. DF & RFJ are two of my 3 favorite shmups that i've been exposed to so far and they finally made the Top 25.

What joined the Top 25:

Code: Select all

04  Ketsui
15  Raiden DX
16  Dangun Feveron
17  Raiden Fighters Jet
25  Mushihimesama Futari

What got bumped:

Code: Select all

14  Gradius Gaiden
19  Soukyugurentai
22  Shikigami no Shiro 2
23  Thunderforce IV
25  Thunderforce III

Has anyone thought about crunching the numbers from previous years to produce a cumulative top 25 list?

I think i'm going to do it. I'll pm the mods to find out if the data for the first 2 years are available. Nullstar's posts (yr1, yr2) only list the Top 25 + Honorable Mentions, not the individual score values nor the full lists.

I actually really like the medal-collection and upgrading system in Raizing games. I'm just really annoyed by the overall mechanics of the game that pretty much necessitate shit like suiciding in order to progress. I'm surprised so many people like that, but apparently they do.

It's possible some people highly enjoy Raizing, but ignore suiciding (or whatever mechanic they don't like). I'm not all that obsessed with scoring or 1CCs, my first priority is having fun, therefore Raizing would rate very highly on my Top 25 even though i've never tried suiciding.

"-Oh my god, which of these fifteen characters do I choose? Oh, no, I have to choose more stuff! Let me waste my time on dodging friggin' bullets instead of "create" the character first, for the love of god!"

I can empathize with that - i hate having to read shmup strategy guides, selection guides, etc. If you want no fuss in APB, just choose one of the 3 default "triple-ship" choices.

[emphatic]

Once you have your setting down pat, you can get into the game quite quickly.

I totally understand this idea. Though it's not one for me. Configuration is very non sexy IMHO.

[Rob]

but again it's because your focus is set firmly (and solely) on the scoring system, whilst ignoring everything else.

I like good soundtracks and graphics (see Lost/Forgotten Worlds - I think this is much more atmospheric than any game Cave has or will ever make). That's why I wouldn't rank Shiki 2 in the top 25. Lack of polish with its presentation and I don't like Japanese cartoons. It's still a fun and noteworthy series. Never played 3, but some comments last page got me interested again.

[Twiddle]

I'm shocked to see BG take the top spot. Isn't that one pretty ranksploitationy?

It's the perfect pick, really. I think it's become clear that Garegga is the ultimate cult classic around here. It sustains long-term interest, while I don't see that in a single Cave game. People will play hard for a while, get sick of it and sell all of their junk to next victim. Garegga fans don't get sick of it for some reason. ┐('～`；)┌

Even if you stop playing it for a while it's easy to pick back up. Cave games not so much.

[emphatic]

Even if you stop playing it for a while it's easy to pick back up. Cave games not so much.

Very true for ESPGALUDA, for Ketsui, not so much.

[jpj]

i liked the bit in shiki 2 where the level became like tetris style

and yeah, i think we're all curious to how good shiki 3 actually is and wanna see for ourselves now. hopefully this open-mindedness will be reciprocated. but for real, those fucking anime things before every other boss ....

ketsui has an excellent stage 1, by the way

i find cave games easier to get back into because they're pattern based (ie muscle-memory), where raizing is more memory tests and cerebral (how many options am i supposed to drop? do i shoot it with my options, or do i use my bomb?). bit sad to sell my garegga board but it was quite literally an offer i couldn't refuse

unless i was misunderstanding you rob, you seemed to be implying that people had voted for 11 of the same game essentially. but the only one for me that could be an issue on that list would be ddp and doj (as doj is basically the same game but better ).

[Chi_Ryu]

It's the perfect pick, really. I think it's become clear that Garegga is the ultimate cult classic around here. It sustains long-term interest, while I don't see that in a single Cave game. People will play hard for a while, get sick of it and sell all of their junk to next victim. Garegga fans don't get sick of it for some reason. ┐('~`;)┌

Meh. I like Raizing/8ing stuff, and have owned Garegga, Bakraid and Batrider. The only one I've kept of the three is Batrider. If I want to play a Garegga-style game I'd always fire up Batrider or Ibara instead of Garegga.

I think Dangun is their best for ship selection since you get customizable speed.

Except if you play as Uo Poko, natch Also, Pink Sweets allows you to change speed mid-game, regardless of character choice.

I like good soundtracks and graphics

Ibara has an absolutely cracking soundtrack, IMO. I rather like the visual style as well, but it seems to put a lot of people off (and the pastel bullets, too - people seem to either love these or hate them). The babes-in-panties I just ignore (after all, they make jack shit difference to the game, it's the inbetween levels that they pop up on the whole).

Espgaluda II looks delightful, too. DeathSmiles 2 looks like arse, though - I don't think even the most diehard of Cave apologists would try to argue otherwise.