6th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - RESULTS!

[wiNteR]

My thoughts on the list:

Guwange should have been lower and Mars Matrix should have been higher. I pretty much agree with the rest of the list (atleast the games I have played). Gradius V is a good choice for number one but I think the other three games below it are more deserving. I would be more willing to give GV the first spot if it allowed restart from a higher loop. Not having this really kills the replayability.

[Fenrir]

if it allowed restart from a higher loop. Not having this really kills the replayability.

It's not like it's a short game to 1cc anyway. The single loop of GV probably overtimes the sum of the other three under it. To think of the legendary, awesomely challenging bits it has (the spider in the well, the backward bit, the meteorite storm, the wobbling acid corridors...) makes me really think that at least once, the 1st place is deserved.

Oh and gg for Guwange. I'm happy to see it rocking again. That game rules.

[professor ganson]

One serious problem with the list: it fails as a well-rounded guide to the genre. Consider:

-DDP and DOJ both in top five
-TF III and IV both in top 25
-Gradius V and Gaiden both in top 25
-way too many Cave and Treasure titles in top 10

Anyone creating a *thoughtful* top 25 would avoid these problems and offer a more varied list. The problem here is a straightforward consequence of mass voting and would be difficult to avoid in this context.

[Turrican]

One serious problem with the list: it fails as a well-rounded guide to the genre.

I agree, but it can't be helped. Maybe we should just put a disclaimer on it: "Warning, it isn't meant to be a guide for people who want to approach shmups".

Each one of us can carefully craft a balanced list, but we can't demand that the outcome will be as balanced as ours. Doesn't work that way.

[jpj]

indeed

don't take the list so seriously. it's more like a snapshot in time of what people are enjoying the most at this moment.

[innerpattern]

indeed

don't take the list so seriously. it's more like a snapshot in time of what people are enjoying the most at this moment.

That's how I see this list. It's unrealistic to expect some kind of "guide to shmups" list from a large group of voters, voting for any random games they want.

That kind of list would be more like an editorial piece from one person who has been playing shmups forever and lived through the progression of the genre.

[professor ganson]

Yeah, I wonder whose list in the voting thread would fit the bill. Some lists are very smart but a bit idiosyncratic.

[Ed Oscuro]

Hey Mr. Schatten,

There seems to be a minor problem with Undead Line (X68000)'s entry, it's listed as "Undead Lines," close to right but with a -s at the end.

Damocles: Next year hopefully I'll have some experience with Undead Line, and so I'll likely bump that into my top25 and we can work on rallying votes to it then.

The good: I'm glad we have R-Type and
Strikers 1945 II back in the top 25 and Soldier Blade back in the HM. It's also a good thing that Under Defeat left the top 25.

Agreed completely, and it gives me a good feeling to note that Strikers '45 II and Soldier Blade were both in my list

also, lol:

Major Stryker : 0.085949 1.000000 0.009346
[...]
Undead Lines (X68000) : 0.082177 1.000000 0.006154
Vapor Trail : 0.082177 1.000000 0.006154
Star Soldier (Gamecube/PS2 version) : 0.081191 1.000000 0.005319
Hybris : 0.081191 1.000000 0.005319
Lethal Xcess : 0.080814 1.000000 0.005000
Jets 'n' Guns : 0.080814 1.000000 0.005000
Steel Saviour : 0.080814 1.000000 0.005000
Philosoma : 0.080814 1.000000 0.005000
Xenon : 0.080814 1.000000 0.005000
Andro Dunos : 0.080755 1.000000 0.004950
Borderline : 0.080428 1.000000 0.004673
Project X : 0.079203 1.000000 0.003636
Gorf : 0.078967 1.000000 0.003436
Ether Vapor : 0.078542 1.000000 0.003077
Radical Radial : 0.078542 1.000000 0.003077
Anaza Kaleidoscope Special : 0.078542 1.000000 0.003077

Crazyness, Major Stryker rated above Undead Line and Borderline just below Xenon (non-megablast ver.) and Anthro Dunces.

[nimitz]

Theres one thing i really don't understand about the list.

Gradius V and Border Down are pretty similar games expecially in the eye of people who have less experience with the genre and for the hardcore players Border down features a much deeper scoring system.

They both are hori with beautiful 3d visuals, high quality music, a relatively old-school "feel" and they were released only one year appart.

So why Border down (12th) didn't rate higher or Gradius V (1st) rate lower?

Would you say it's only because of the "Gradius" name, the Western release and the fact Gradius V was on PS2 and not on the Dreamcast?

-Gradius V and Gaiden both in top 25

I don't see that as a problem at all. They are very different games by different developpers. Pretty much the only things they share is the "name", the main ship and the power up system.


Also, I feel the bottom part of the complete list much more interesting than the top 50.

[Rob]

Each one of us can carefully craft a balanced list, but we can't demand that the outcome will be as balanced as ours. Doesn't work that way.

Here's where I refer back to the voting suggestions I made in the discussion thread, but people are afraid of the results not looking like the shmups version of a famitsu best games of all time list (consisting entirely of Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy).

[Rob]

Would you say it's only because of the "Gradius" name, the Western release and the fact Gradius V was on PS2 and not on the Dreamcast?

No way. I think 12th is much higher than the game deserves to place. It has two good ideas and both modified from the Darius series. One of those ideas was already done more impressively in G.Darius (laser usage). Second, like Darius, the stages end up feeling a little thin. Ditching the pyramid was a good idea, but I still think they overextended themselves. I played the game a lot and can't recall much of the stages. What I can recall isn't special. So this is an easy one:

The game isn't nearly as polished. The stages aren't as memorable. I think GV's ship types are a much better way of adding variety to stages than creating slightly different versions.

To see its full potential you have to play for score, the lower rank makes the opening stages too tame. I never could get into the scoring system, so the game ends up feeling only half there and the stages are already almost Darius thin. This is the risk of relying so heavily on score. Gradius V is all about surviving. Anyone can enjoy that without having to put a lot of time into it and anyone playing through it experiences basically the same thing.

[Herr Schatten]

There seems to be a minor problem with Undead Line (X68000)'s entry, it's listed as "Undead Lines," close to right but with a -s at the end.

Fixed. Thanks for the heads up.

[Herr Schatten]

I think we can all agree that Apidya is the best home computer shooter ever made, since it's the first home-computer only shmup appearing in descending order.

Last year it missed making the HM list just barely. This year it slid down a few places due to the larger number of voters involved.

[RGC]

don't take the list so seriously. it's more like a snapshot in time of what people are enjoying the most at this moment.

That's not entirely how I voted. Some games on my list I haven't played for years. Still, any shootemup that impactive on my childhood definitely deserves a mention (e.g. Elemental Master), since these games are the reason I love the genre. My top 25 reveals me as 'Nostalgic Fanboy'.

Cheers to everyone who organised this.

[Shatterhand]

I think we can all agree that Apidya is the best home computer shooter ever made, since it's the first home-computer only shmup appearing in descending order.

Last year it missed making the HM list just barely. This year it slid down a few places due to the larger number of voters involved.

And like I always say, if it was released on a console or arcade and it was made by a japanese devteam, it would easily be on the top 25. Like probably Ketsui would be if it had a home-port or something. How many Cave games on the top 25 did not get a home port or aren't playable on MAME? This list has always been about the best games that are acessible to most people. I doubt most people here would bother enough to setup Winuae (not that simple) when they could be spending the time trying to get that extra hit on their combo of stage 2 of DDP-DOJ which is something they know it's good because, after all, it's from Cave, right?

What scares me is that I know like 90% of the shmups from the full list... maybe more than 90%. And I have to say, Final Justice above Hype? That's a huge blasphemy. And how the heck a masterpiece like Space Manbow is below Shienryu? And it's kinda hilarious to see Anaza Kaleidoscope Special on last place, below.. RADICAL RADIAL? Who the HECK voted for RADICAL RADIAL? Also LOL for Hybris, Lethal Xcess and Jets 'n' Guns getting the exact same score, those damn euro-shmups... they also got the same score of Philosoma, the most euroshmup ever made in Japan.

and the correct name of "Seek & Destroy - Demoliton Gunner Remix" should be "Demolition Gunner In:Seek & Destroy" . Remix is one of the game modes added on the "Seek & Destory" edition.



EDIT: Also that's the first time Gunbird 2 doesn't make in the top 25. And how Thunder Force III dropped from 2nd place on the first year to 25th now? In 5 years it won't be even on the HM list anymore.

[louisg]

One of those ideas was already done more impressively in G.Darius (laser usage).

It was actually first seen in Metal Black. Border Down is, largely, an homage to that game.

Gradius V is all about surviving. Anyone can enjoy that without having to put a lot of time into it

Unless they fall asleep first! I'd say the bosses in Border Down are more engaging than those in GV, though I agree that a couple of the levels could have been more interesting-- though, I wouldn't say unmemorable. I think Border Down, if nothing else, is more concentrated.

[Turrican]

Well, I am one of the guys responsible for Raiden DX's lacking performance I'm afraid.

The reason is... Well, I really despise how one of the most influential companies out there didn't get any attention, so I voted for Twin Cobra, a game Raiden owes a lot to.

[Ed Oscuro]

The reason is... Well, I really despise how one of the most influential companies out there didn't get any attention, so I voted for Twin Cobra, a game Raiden owes a lot to.

Twin Cobra/KT was the second lowest-ranking game with 17 votes - people like it, but don't give it the points probably on account of its being primitive.

Also, I noticed that people voted for Dogyuun and other of its lesser-known shooters. Not too terrible when all's said.

[maxi]

Well, I am one of the guys responsible for Raiden DX's lacking performance I'm afraid.

The reason is... Well, I really despise how one of the most influential companies out there didn't get any attention, so I voted for Twin Cobra, a game Raiden owes a lot to.

My vote for Twin Cobra is also for the same reason.

[spadgy]

I think we can all agree that Apidya is the best home computer shooter ever made, since it's the first home-computer only shmup appearing in descending order.

One of the games that got me into shooters that! Shame it doesn’t get an HM. Maybe if it were on more formats... What with the Amiga being a pain in the cock for emulation.

Well, I love Gradius V, but for some reason I’m surprised to see it top the chart. While creating this list is a praiseworthy effort (thank you Herr, thank you Zach!), I guess you’re never going to satisfy everybody...

Sad not to see more Psyvariar love in there, but glad to see Progear climbing so high amoungst the big names...

[jonny5]

seriously.....gradius V??

that was not at all what i expected to see.....hmmmm.....

[CIT]

Well, I am one of the guys responsible for Raiden DX's lacking performance I'm afraid.

The reason is... Well, I really despise how one of the most influential companies out there didn't get any attention, so I voted for Twin Cobra, a game Raiden owes a lot to.

But every shooter in the Ranking owes a lot to Space Invaders, so why didn't you vote for that?

And besides, Raiden DX is an infinitely better game than Twin Cobra.

[Turrican]

Well, I am one of the guys responsible for Raiden DX's lacking performance I'm afraid.

The reason is... Well, I really despise how one of the most influential companies out there didn't get any attention, so I voted for Twin Cobra, a game Raiden owes a lot to.

But every shooter in the Ranking owes a lot to Space Invaders, so why didn't you vote for that?

And besides, Raiden DX is an infinitely better game than Twin Cobra.

The first question isn't serious, right? There are debts and debts. Every game owes something to Space invaders, but the Raiden series has an HUGE debt with KT.

As for Raiden DX being infinitely better... Yes, I would agree. BUT. Uemura's music is just too fantastic.

AND.

I've come to sorta loathe the "glittering medal" system with years.

[Ed Oscuro]

BUT. Uemura's music is just too fantastic.

It's in Raiden games anyway ;)

I voted for KT/TC and not DX because I like playing KT more.

[Turrican]

It's in Raiden games anyway

I don't detect your sarcasm... Raidens are by the Sato composers, Akira and Go...

[Rob]

Border Down is, largely, an homage to [Metal Black]

There's a shorter answer to why it's not as good as GV.

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't detect your sarcasm...

That's good, because there wasn't any!

I goofed though: Gallantry (from Raiden) is a cover of Flying Shark's second song, "Against the Attack."

Incidentally, Randorama's Raiden DX ST is the only place on the 'net I've found that information.

nZero notes that "Lightning War" also seems to have parts of the first stage music of Truxton and Hellfire as well.

[Turrican]

I don't detect your sarcasm...

That's good, because there wasn't any!

I goofed though: Gallantry (from Raiden) is a cover of Flying Shark's second song, "Against the Attack."

Cool. You mean this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXJNFqREeMc

The similarity is staggering, although I'm not sure Gallantry can be defined a "cover" of it... It's just the nth proof of the heavy influence Toaplan had on Seibu guys.

[Ed Oscuro]

You mean this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXJNFqREeMc

What is that? I can't hear it over Egypt from Hellfire playing in BridgeM1

fake edit: Over 10 minutes on this track in BridgeM1's play counter, whee

[it290]

That Egypt track is probably the most rocking video game tune ever.