Whatever happened to the Ketsui Dump?

[emphatic]

its nothing to do with him at all .

He's an emulator dev. That's how he "fits" in this puzzle.

It's a MAME Dev not a FBA Dev

I know he's not an FBA dev. My point is, he feels that ALL emulator devs can get caught in the shit storm of legal action against ANY emulator team.

[Evrain]

@Veran: I know of a partial dump (which if I'm not mistaken was of Black Label) and of course Guru's dump

The bullshit part IMHO was they said the ARM7 dump was required which is not the case as iq has prooved. With this info at hand I'd recon Bee Storm could get further now too, though I suspect MAMEdev knew that all along and did nothing to try and keep the illusion up that it was impossible.

The ARM7 dump IS required, blackboxing can do only that much after all, and we've seen in pretty clearly - KoV (pre-2001) got cracked and took ElSemi quite some time, Ketsui is a whole different matter and the dump is needed after all, I think.
However, having DDP2's ARM7 contents would have helped quite a bit.

Note to Cave: now that you've been scared to death by emulation, how about releasing Ketsui in good old Europe, too?

[emphatic]

Someone should ask Haze why Guwange and the 'Pachis are still in MAME (I'm too lazy to register at yet another forum just for this). After all, Guwange is soon on XBLA, while DonPachi and Do-Donpachi are available in the Japanese PS3 online marketplace thingie, right? And now CAVE has "announced" work is being done on ESP Ra.De. as well. I mean, why is Ketsui at all dangerous to include at this point? ARIKA sent that legal note to the MAME team years ago, but do they still have claims?

[clp]

Its so true , mame is literally the reason that a massive percentage of western cave fans even exists .

[Domino]

emphatic I semi-posted on your behalf if you don't mind. Even I think Haze is acting idiotic.

[clp]

Haze posted we look like a bunch of babies? yeh good one Haze now go look at the ketsui score thread to see how many people here have forked out a shit ton of money to cave for pcbs and japanese 360s just to play it .

[Domino]

From Haze:

To warn them of the potential trouble they could get in, for which I'm sure they're grateful of.

Stop screaming like a kid here and on the Shmups forums just because you might not be able to play Ketsui for free, you look like a bunch of crybabies in that thread.

[austere]

There's no reasoning with Haze on this issue. I've already raised Guwange as an example and he chose to ignore it without disclosing further information about this elusive threat from Cave. Remember that the thread you are posting on is about iq_132's WIP so we've all already overstayed our welcome (and so has Haze to a great extent).

Let us leave it at that.

[NzzpNzzp]

Someone should ask Haze why Guwange and the 'Pachis are still in MAME (I'm too lazy to register at yet another forum just for this).

There's gonna need to be some time travel involved if they want people to stop emulating those games in MAME.

[supergoose]

Note to Cave: now that you've been scared to death by emulation, how about releasing Ketsui in good old Europe, too?

this. on anything but the 360, if somehow possible. please.

[emphatic]

Someone should ask Haze why Guwange and the 'Pachis are still in MAME (I'm too lazy to register at yet another forum just for this).

There's gonna need to be some time travel involved if they want people to stop emulating those games in MAME.

What? They can just remove these from the current releases. It would make sense and a SHOW OF RESPECT towards the gaming industry. "Look, we're emulation people and we can play nicely". Sure, all of the MAME releases before the current one are impossible to stop as they're kinda out of their hands and all over the Internet, but removing the CAVE sources from current versions is pretty easy to do. If it's so important not to step on the toes of the gaming industry that is. It's like selling some drug that's currently legal, and then keep selling it "while stocks last" even though it's deemed illegal the next day.

Haze,

I respect you and all but your logic on Ketsui is idiotic at best.

If you believe Cave's logic to be 'idiotic' and irrational, please email them and tell them, don't shoot the messenger etc.

See what he did there?

[austere]

The point you should focus on is that if Cave thought emulation of their games was such a disaster for their potential publishers, they would not have even bothered with the development of a Guwange port. It is so simple to understand this, (though not too difficult to argue against, if one was good with rhetoric) that it must be ignored by someone who is busy moralising.

[Veran]

From Haze:

To warn them of the potential trouble they could get in, for which I'm sure they're grateful of.

Stop screaming like a kid here and on the Shmups forums just because you might not be able to play Ketsui for free, you look like a bunch of crybabies in that thread.

Someone sounds like a moral-fag. I've payed to get other things for free before >_>

[THE]

The point you should focus on is that if Cave thought emulation of their games was such a disaster for their potential publishers, they would not have even bothered with the development of a Guwange port. It is so simple to understand this, (though not too difficult to argue against, if one was good with rhetoric) that it must be ignored by someone who is busy moralising.

Cave asked their fans which game they should port to XBLA and most fans wanted Guwange. That's why they developed it for XBLA. No publishers involved here.

Due to Mame emulation, no publisher ever in the west would probably touch any of those games anymore.
So yes emulation does harm Cave in some ways, but they are benefiting from it as well. All the Cave hype basically started with emulation and the PS2 ports, before that they where only some obscure ex Toaplan chaps...

[neorichieb1971]

Its not Caves fault they have not released games on your console/territory. Its the console company rules.

And now we have the MAME Devs who are also following the rules, seemingly.

[gameoverDude]

Haze posted we look like a bunch of babies? yeh good one Haze now go look at the ketsui score thread to see how many people here have forked out a shit ton of money to cave for pcbs and japanese 360s just to play it .

Whoa. Look at some of the people you just hit there, Haze.
I've paid for Ketsui- $600 shipped for a PCB back before the price hit four figures, then $70 for Ketsui Extra. Oh yeah, $50 for KDL. $720. Haze can NOT say I want to play Ketsui for free. And for those outside Japan who have western 360 units: There's no way to play Ketsui without shelling out God knows how much for the PCB or getting a 360 (not everyone is aware of NCSX or similar sellers) from Japan.

If my Ketsui PCB dies, I wouldn't mind something to fall back on. I have the 360 port but what if I get RRODs (I've been lucky, my JPN X360 has been going strong for about 5 years)? Let's face it- one day DOJBLEX & KEX will be out of print like the original PCBs, if they aren't already. I can understand having a moratorium of 12-18 months on the Ketsui driver, but it shouldn't be bottled up forever.

I'll say it's too early for the CV1000 driver though. Maybe Luca Elia should have kept quiet about it for awhile longer- it's really pointless when the driver won't run at decent speeds. CV1000 is still going strong with Akai Katana, and Daifukkatsu is imminent for 360. WRT releasing the CV1000 driver: Luca should at least wait until the CV1000 board is retired, which has to happen sometime. CV1000 is good for maybe another 2 years IMO. By then, the latest PCs should be able to handle the driver.

OK, the Cave emulation is a double edged sword. But to compensate, Cave or other port developers should continue adding extra modes not found on the PCB. Cave adds remastered HD modes to their ports- which you're not getting if you emulate. Keep that up. This makes me wish Cave would develop an Xbox 360 based arcade PCB, so the original arcade versions could look as good as the ports.

[austere]

A good attempt, but not thorough enough.

Cave asked their fans which game they should port to XBLA and most fans wanted Guwange.

Cave is a publicly listed company, if they thought they would not be able to churn a profit from this port, they would not have went ahead with it. Pleasing their fans alone is not enough to please their shareholders. At the same time, the fact that most fans want an already-emulated game ported (assuming they would then purchase it) should indicate that the entire premise of the elusive letter argument is false.

To save you the time of typing up a counter-argument to this point, refer to the Dangun Feveron port.

That's why they developed it for XBLA. No publishers involved here.

According to a friend who develops for XBLA, when you intend to release something on that platform without a publisher of your own, Microsoft automatically becomes your "publisher". I assume this was the case with the Guwange port:

Microsoft, fans and Cave worked together to make it true. I am very pleased about that.

In other news, iq_132 had to split the thread due to the retardation piling on from all sides. Don't fall prey to petty instigation. Besides, there's really no point carrying on with this argument over there:

The second reason being that one of the members of the FBA team has a young family, while it wouldn't be a big deal for me to get sued (I'm childless and poor lol), I think even the possibility of legal action should be avoided to protect the wellbeing of that family.

I know it sucks and I would really rather make everything public (I'm a firm believer in open source, open ideas, open information, etc), this is just one of those times in which my feelings are not important.

I will keep working on this (and any other Cave/PGM game that is shared with me) and try to perfect the simulation/emulation so that when the driver can be made public, it will be worth the wait.

[THE]

A good attempt, but not thorough enough.

Cave asked their fans which game they should port to XBLA and most fans wanted Guwange.

Cave is a publicly listed company, if they thought they would not be able to churn a profit from this port, they would not have went ahead with it. Pleasing their fans alone is not enough to please their shareholders. At the same time, the fact that most fans want an already-emulated game ported (assuming they would then purchase it) should indicate that the entire premise of the elusive letter argument is false.

Of course Cave will churn a profit with those XBLA ports. After all it costs basically nothing to publish a game on XBLA. The port probably took them only a week or something to do. Maybe they even just used Mame code

But it's a given fact, that Cave would churn more profit without those games being available to Mame.
A second point is, that Mame isn't as popular/known in Japan as it is in the Warez-West™.

If you want to play Ketsui for free, just get a torrent for the x360 version or steal a PCB from a Japanese arcade.
*legal disclaimer* this is not an instigation *legal disclaimer* Do not do this kids!

[emphatic]

If you want to play Ketsui for free, just get a torrent for the x360 version or steal a PCB from a Japanese arcade.

*brb, jumping in my free jet plane to visit Tokyo*

I think that MAME is very popular amongst Arcade freaks in the east, in fact just as popular as it is in the west, although as us westerners *generally* have more space, we are more prone to build hideous MAME cabinets that attract people to MAME that would normally only be casual players as it's all of a sudden a "hobby thing".

[THE]

*brb, jumping in my free jet plane to visit Tokyo*
I think that MAME is very popular amongst Arcade freaks in the east, in fact just as popular as it is in the west, although as us westerners *generally* have more space, we are more prone to build hideous MAME cabinets that attract people to MAME that would normally only be casual players as it's all of a sudden a "hobby thing".

Possible...but all Japanese guys I know are crazy PCB collectors like my self
But from my feeling I would say, there a lot more Japanese that purchase those classic collection on consoles to play these games. While most westerners just stick to emulation...

[RetroRepair]

I think the thing people are forgetting is that Ketsui HAS been emulated, at least to a very promising point and it will be released eventually. Just give it time.

I'd say the project this thread is based on was a success and now we just play the waiting game.

[captpain]

I think the thing people are forgetting is that Ketsui HAS been emulated, at least to a very promising point and it will be released eventually. Just give it time.

I'd say the project this thread is based on was a success and now we just play the waiting game.

It's not at a playable state and I think one of the biggest things people are arguing about is the waiting part

[Zeron]

*brb, jumping in my free jet plane to visit Tokyo*
I think that MAME is very popular amongst Arcade freaks in the east, in fact just as popular as it is in the west, although as us westerners *generally* have more space, we are more prone to build hideous MAME cabinets that attract people to MAME that would normally only be casual players as it's all of a sudden a "hobby thing".

Possible...but all Japanese guys I know are crazy PCB collectors like my self
But from my feeling I would say, there a lot more Japanese that purchase those classic collection on consoles to play these games. While most westerners just stick to emulation...

I can't speak for all Japanese obviously but alot the streamers from what I have seen use MAME, even the world record holder Ket uses Gare MAME.

[austere]

This is becoming tedious and off-topic, I will only answer well thought-out/amusing replies from this point onwards.

Of course Cave will churn a profit with those XBLA ports. After all it costs basically nothing to publish a game on XBLA. The port probably took them only a week or something to do. Maybe they even just used Mame code

Not really, the localisation costs wouldn't be negligible and though the deal with Microsoft is unknown, they usually have some kind of minimum sale before a profit can be made. Furthermore, if a week of work (assuming it took that long) on something else would have netted them more money then it is a loss.

But it's a given fact, that Cave would churn more profit without those games being available to Mame.

Oh, dear! Now that it is a fact, not a supposition (without a basis and, really, a laughable premise), there's no way to argue against it. The actual "fact" is without the MAME emulation of this game hardly anyone in the west would have heard of Guwange. The Japanese buyers will get it for the leaderboards/extra modes since they've probably already played it to death at their local arcade.

A second point is, that Mame isn't as popular/known in Japan as it is in the Warez-West™.

Which follows directly from the observation that the PCs aren't as popular in Japan as in the so called "Warez-West". Even then, ZUN seems to be doing fine with his games being openly available on this "Warez" thing you speak of. It's really amusing that your second point also destroys the basis for opposing the emulation of Ketsui, given there is no plan announced for PAL/NTSC-US release.

If you want to play Ketsui for free, just get a torrent for the x360 version or steal a PCB from a Japanese arcade.

Ah, another pointless instigation -- because of course, if you're working towards getting Ketsui emulated, you obviously cannot afford (or aren't wiling to pay for) a copy/board of Ketsui. I guess I'm so poor/cheap that I'll have to buy a ticket to Japan (where they will happily fingerprint me as I cross their border) and steal a PCB, to make sure that the Japan hate us "Gaijin" just that little bit more. I don't like doing this, but it's time to bury the bullshit, so take a look at this picture:



There's all of Cave's games in there minus Deathsmiles II, along with some games from other Japanese STG developers. On the left is the still-boxed iPhone I had purchased (outright and with cash since contracts/debts are strictly for slaves) moments ago with the intent of downloading ESPGaluda II and DoDonPachi Resurrection in a few minutes. I don't even intend to play the latter until I've at least 1CC'ed DFK with my pre-ordered copy for the Xbox 360. I already own a copy of the ESPGaluda port and I'm buying it again -- just so that Cave gets a bit of my money. The Xbox 360, the iPhone and the games would not have been purchased if I did not encounter DoDonPachi in MAME, thanks to reading about Cave on insomnia.ac. When you guys decide to make a game of the same quality as those I have already purchased, it will also be added to the stack.

I'm not alone -- many people on this forum are of the same mindset/position and yet still want to see Ketsui emulated. If you don't understand why, well, perhaps that's a story for another day. Haze is an intelligent guy though, so I'm sure he of all people understands the reason -- his instigation is childish, or perhaps it was a purposeful instigation to demonstrate the low-credibility of this forum to the FBA team.

Anyway, in due time, none of this conversation will matter with regards to the topic of this discussion.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Instigation.

[clp]

So cave dont care about ddp2 being emulated? so whats the hold up on that one again?

[Sparda]

I wonder if Ketsui can run on Xbox if Final Burn Legends is updated with the last drivers when the work on Ketsui will be done.

[gray117]

Emulation is a very interesting form of preservation; and a remarkable homage to not only individual games but also the hardware. However, its legal standing is extremely quesiton-able in a world where autodesk can't even get America to decide whether a software and software license can be re-sold and China is almost at once persecuted and encouraged by the world markets to (re)produce everything from technology to clothing.

The point is that emulation in the past was a very small deal - reserved only to a select few... a bit like file sharing before dsl and mp3s before the ipod.

As soon as this changed, emulation came under more scrutiny.

These back catalogues, and future franchise investments became worth more. These were also franchises which the creators were legally bound to reasonably manage. In part, the value of a continuing market could be attributed to the market that emulation enabled/nurtured/informed. But if emulation can be credited with providing at least part of an audience, and even delivering it to a screen, it can not take credit for producing the original source materials.

I don't think games companies want to punish people who want to play their games, but they must protect their value. In this respect its now hard to take back the past, potentially, it is still not financially viable to initiate such a 'taking back', let alone continuously enforce it. In fact, Nintendo is the only company who has even attempted to do this.

However, it is much more reasonable for companies to want to 'manage' the future; in general they're not [yet] attempting to prevent future emulation and hobbyists, but they are at least attempting to manage them, and in that respect separate these individuals from the pirates...

... This is a very difficult path to tread, and an even more difficult message to communicate. I feel that the companies - the owners and creators of this content - are entirely justified in this respect.

Furthermore, I am somewhat disappointed by people's reactions to individuals such as Haze/Guru who - despite any of their personal strengths/faults - are working for nothing on something you are interested in, with material produced by another company...

[Ixmucane2]

Three revisions of Ketsui, DOJ, DOJ Black Label and EspGaluda have appeared in MAME 0.140u2 (marked as not working), with roms on the usual sites.
I don't know where these roms come from, but it seems a final answer to the thread title question.

[Evrain]

Three revisions of Ketsui, DOJ, DOJ Black Label and EspGaluda have appeared in MAME 0.140u2 (marked as not working), with roms on the usual sites.
I don't know where these roms come from, but it seems a final answer to the thread title question.

If that's true, epic lolling will take place(TM)