Your definition of a shoot-em-up

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Asherdude
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Post by Asherdude »

JoshF wrote:If Contra isn't a shooting game, then what is it, a platformer? "Platformer" is another one of those misused and invented terms that doesn't exist in Japanese and has little if any reference to a particular style of gameplay. ...
You know, you're right. I can't find the term "platformer" anywhere on the Nintendo home page. http://www.nintendo.com/home According the them, Donkey Kong, Super Mario Bros, Contra, and even Ikaruga are action games.
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Post by Rob »

Nintendo.com says: shmups don't exist, now known as action games. Also, Donkey Kong is in the same genre.
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Post by JoshF »

Metroid's elements are more akin to an adventure game (emphasis on exploration, stat-building, non-linear design with lack of scoring system.) Bubble Bobble is an action game with arcade-style design (time limits, score system, etc.) Most of the games I've seen called platformers here are really (2D scrolling) action games. Then again "platformer" doesn't really mean anything and is usually used to denote any game with something that jumps. I guess if I want an elitist definition of that word I'll have to go to Plorms.com.
Nintendo.com says: shmups don't exist, now known as action games. Also, Donkey Kong is in the same genre.
You made a mistake. Try nintendo.co.jp instead.
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Post by Icarus »

@JoshF:
So by your definition, shootemups include Grand Theft Auto, Tempest, Starfox 64, Space Harrier, Galaxy Force II, Resident Evil, Metal Slug, Arkanoid, Puzzle Bobble, Quake, F.E.A.R, Unreal Tournament, Contra, Metroid, Bubble Bobble, Time Crisis, Operation Wolf, Thunder Blade... and all because they all employ shooting aspects in their gameplay.

Good God.

There's a reason why people are trying to subcategorise different variants of games: so that it makes it easier to find games of a similar style of gameplay and design. The way you categorise, we might as well not have subcategories, and should call everything "games". Yeah, that'll make things really fucking easy to organise.
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Post by Asherdude »

Icarus wrote:@JoshF:
There's a reason why people are trying to subcategorise different variants of games: so that it makes it easier to find games of a similar style of gameplay and design. The way you categorise, we might as well not have subcategories, and should call everything "games". Yeah, that'll make things really fucking easy to organise.
This is my point exactly. We (the people who should know better) are labeling games like Contra as "platformers". Contra is so far away from Mario's gameplay style that my 4 year old nephew can tell the difference. But when he looks at Contra and then looks at Gradius, he sees the same type of game -- a shooter. Why is it so hard for our group to see that? I'm ok with the term "Run-n-gun." But I don't see why it can't fit in this list...

Current SHMUP types:
Fixed shooters
Arena shooters
Vertical scrolling shooters
Horizontal scrolling shooters
Manic shooters
(and any other that I might have missed.)

Just because the player is on the ground or just affected by gravity shouldn't exclude the game from the shoot-em-up category.
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Post by Icarus »

Asherdude wrote:This is my point exactly. We (the people who should know better) are labeling games like Contra as "platformers". Contra is so far away from Mario's gameplay style that my 4 year old nephew can tell the difference. But when he looks at Contra and then looks at Gradius, he sees the same type of game -- a shooter. Why is it so hard for our group to see that? I'm ok with the term "Run-n-gun." But I don't see why it can't fit in this list...

Current SHMUP types:
Fixed shooters
Arena shooters
Vertical scrolling shooters
Horizontal scrolling shooters
Manic shooters
(and any other that I might have missed.)

Just because the player is on the ground or just affected by gravity shouldn't exclude the game from the shoot-em-up category.
See my point above yours. Proper categorising should exclude "run-and-guns" like Contra and Metal Slug because they have gravity as an extra dynamic. The shootemups that are prevalent on this forum don't have that extra gameplay dynamic available. If anything, the addition of gravity forces the gameplay as far away from traditional shooting games and into the realm of on-rails shooters, because the gravity forces you along fixed paths in the game, while the likes of Dodonpachi, Raystorm, even scenery-based shooters like R-Type allow you access to at least 90% of the screen.

Yes, they might be classed as shooting games, but they're still very removed from the shooting games that are common around here, and warrant their own category of games.
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Post by JoshF »

So by your definition, shootemups include... Metroid, Bubble Bobble...
If you do a search for "metroid, bubble bobble" you should be able to find my thoughts on the matter. Or you could look at my last post in this topic. Nevermind, I'll save you the trouble.

Metroid and Bubble Bobble are not shooting games.
...and all because they all employ shooting aspects in their gameplay.
No. It depends upon how those shooting aspects are implemented.
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Post by Shatterhand »

Last time I checked, Adventures were games like The Secret of Monkey Island, Full Throttle, The Dig, Curse of Enchantia, King's Quest, Maniac Mansion, Day of the Tentacle and so on.
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Post by JoshF »

Those types of games evolved from interactive fiction like Zork, basically text adventures with a graphic front end, and yes they are adventure games.
(emphasis on exploration, stat-building, non-linear design with lack of scoring system.)
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Post by Icarus »

JoshF wrote:
So by your definition, shootemups include... Metroid, Bubble Bobble...
If you do a search for "metroid, bubble bobble" you should be able to find my thoughts on the matter. Or you could look at my last post in this topic. Nevermind, I'll save you the trouble.

Metroid and Bubble Bobble are not shooting games.
Oh really?
You "shoot" stuff in both games, does that not warrant inclusion in your definition of "shooting games"?
Why does Contra and Metal Slug get the benefit of your doubt, while Metroid and Bubble Bobble don't? They have similar gameplay aspects - gravity, platforms, shooting targets at range.
JoshF wrote:
...and all because they all employ shooting aspects in their gameplay.
No. It depends upon how those shooting aspects are implemented.
How so? You press Fire, you shoot.
Come on then, expand on your comment on "implementation". Enlighten us with your great wisdom.
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Post by JoshF »

You "shoot" stuff in both games, does that not warrant inclusion in your definition of "shooting games"?
This isn't fair. Just when I think I have you guys on the ropes and you cheat by bringing the discussion back to square one. The player projectiles in Bubble Bobble are only half of the formula and isn't tied to the scoring system. There are very few projectiles to dodge. You can play this game with a shooter mentality if you want, but pretty soon you'll find yourself fleeing from a Skel-Monster. I'd rather pop the enemies and move to the next stage.
Come on then, expand on your comment on "implementation". Enlighten us with your great wisdom.
Having to be intrinsically linked to a score system, and the main factor in it. I shouldn't have to expand it any more than that. Basic stuff, and I'm tired of parroting it. Maybe Asherdude's nephew can take it from here.
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Post by Icarus »

JoshF wrote:This isn't fair. Just when I think I have you guys on the ropes and you cheat by bringing the discussion back to square one.
The "wounded animal" card?
Quite sad to see.
JoshF wrote:
Come on then, expand on your comment on "implementation". Enlighten us with your great wisdom.
Having to be intrinsically linked to a score system, and the main factor in it. I shouldn't have to expand it any more than that. Basic stuff, and I'm tired of parroting it. Maybe Asherdude's nephew can take it from here.
That's a very broad definition, isn't it? By that definition the likes of Twisted Metal and Panzer Dragoon are shooting games as well. Hey, you shoot, and the shooting is tied to a score system, is it not?

Now, the problem with your ridiculously broad generalisation is that too many games fall under that category, including games that are not universally recognised as "shootemups". The reason why virtually every gamer on the planet over the mental age of 14 can recognise that Metal Slug and Gradius are games in two different categories is because in Metal Slug, the implementation of shooting is in the way you can shoot in many different directions, whereas in Gradius you can only shoot in one direction. It has nothing to do with being tied to a score system, it has more to do with how the shooting aspect is implemented in gameplay. Not only that, referring back to my other post, both have completely different gameplay mechanics, systems I might add are distinctive to their particular subcategory.

Heck, even going back to Japanese definition, ever wondered why Metal Slug is classed as an action game while Dodonpachi is an STG? Even the people who refined the art of videogames don't have as much difficulty distinguishing them as you do.
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Post by CMoon »

And it keeps going.

First off, is this a philosophical discussion or a discussion about what will be discussed in the main forum? If it is the latter, then I'd love to see this conversation end now because the main forum isn't going to change.

Secondly, I think everyone is pretty well in agreement here (except for a very small minority) that if the game involves gravity, it isn't a shmup. That includes Bangai-O. So it isn't really an issue about what genre all these other games should belong to. Call them whatever, I don't really care. Gravity = not a shmup.

3-D also equals not a shmup.

This leaves the arena shooters (not arena shmups, silly!), and my general feeling is that they are far enough from the general theme as to declare separate.

the problem remains what all the detractors here are getting at. If you mean the general evolution of shmups, I agree that the classification comes far after the fact. In the evolution of these games, lots of different shooting games existed without belonging to any specific genre. The classification is in hindsight. Thus, what is and what is not a shmup is completely an opinion...

An opinion decided a very long time ago by the people who founded this board. The opinion isn't really open to debate, and that's just the problem. There's nothing to win here. No real right or wrong. Just a forum that likes to discuss horizontal or vertical forced scrolling shooters in 2D without gravity where enemy shots must be dodged (and fire returned!)

So please go on, tell us your opinion for several more posts. It really isn't going to change a thing other than add post count.

Now a philosophical discussion about the origin of shooters, that's something different. It isn't like Taito had a particular thing in mind when they came up with Space Invaders...
Last edited by CMoon on Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Twiddle »

to be fair half-life/ unreal tournament are in the same genre as metal slug/contra and flight simulators are in the same genre as what we call shmups in japan so their genre distinction is less tight in one aspect where it's tighter in another
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Post by JoshF »

The "wounded animal" card? Quite sad to see.
What? I don't know what this, and if Google was any help neither does the internet. Who is the wounded animal here?
By that definition the likes of Twisted Metal and Panzer Dragoon are shooting games as well. Hey, you shoot, and the shooting is tied to a score system, is it not?
Twisted Metal had a scoring system? I'm not too familiar with this series you'll have to explain this. Panzer Dragoon is a shooting game (3Dシューティング.)
Heck, even going back to Japanese definition, ever wondered why Metal Slug is classed as an action game while Dodonpachi is an STG? Even the people who refined the art of videogames don't have as much difficulty distinguishing them as you do.
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Post by Veracity »

CMoon wrote:It isn't like Taito had a particular thing in mind when they came up with Space Invaders
It was a Breakout clone, at the time, wasn't it? Sort of.
DazTM wrote:Your definition of a shoot-em-up
Well, what's yours of 'genre'? Not an (entirely) facetious response, since I think most reasonable understandings of genre are quite resistant to definition except in the loosest sense. I don't share the ultra-curmudgeonly viewpoint that you should sod off and do your own research rather than pestering soi-disant experts on a forum, but this is one question that a search should both answer, to the extent possible, and make clear is a perennial summoner of shitstorms hereabouts.

Most developers (mercifully) make games first and exercises in genre adherence second - games can often easily be considered as belonging to more than one genre. Overzealous classification can culminate in all manner of strangeness - I don't know what the hell Space Harrier is if it's not a shoot-em-up, but the fact it's into-the-screen 3d disqualifies it as a 'shmup' for this forum's scope, which is fine by me (I guess it's a 'rail shooter', as long as that doesn't preclude dodging).

Why people get so grouchy about this I'm unclear, though it may be connected to considering membership of a favoured genre some kind of 'badge of honour' in some cases. For the purposes of what's 'On Topic' or eligible for the annual popularity contest, a clear, if somewhat arbitrary, definition is useful, and borderline cases can be decided individually by site executive fiat. Looking for a more authoritative or reliable definition can lead only to frustration, in my opinion.

Anyway, is Senko no Ronde a shmup? What about Shoot the Bullet? (/runs)
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Post by Rob »

Veracity wrote: Most developers (mercifully) make games first and exercises in genre adherence second
I don't know about that. It's rare to play any game that doesn't seem tied to expected genre rules. Seems like they decide on a game type first and then play within it.
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Post by Randorama »

This thread needs more lattice-like approach. I Should compile a proper concept hierarchy of this and see what seems to cause so many headaches. The reader is deferred to Gantner & Wille (1999) for an introduction to the topic. Post-modernists (i.e. anyone who failed the elementary school exam but nonetheless want to feel smart and intellectual) need not to apply. Anyone who wants to volunteer and is a decent CS/math student can help the masses by using these tools: awesome and win and good

Another triumph for rationality! (?)
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Post by shoe-sama »

shoe-sama wrote:1 of many criteria
You have to actually dodge stuff.

YAY
Yeah the main characteristic of a shmup is dodging imo.
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Post by Shatterhand »

This was taken from Shoot The Core site. I think it has some valid points to this topic:

First of all, lets dissect the basic format of any given shoot em up. You control a character, usually a ship or a flying person/mecha, with the overall goal of destroying some type of enemy. Sounds easy, right? Well, along the way, said enemy will try to stop you using their own creative means. This translates into dodging bullets. Lots and lots of bullets. The name of the game here is survival. Shmups are quests to overcome overwhelming odds, weaving your way in and out of projectile death, all the time with a smile on your face. In order to accomplish this, games offer direct control over the main character. Platform games offer horizontal movements with the ability to jump certain distances. Horror survival games allow you to "become" a character, but with the expense of having to translate turning to the left and right, and rotating cameras to look around. Not so in shmups. I push up on the joystick, the ship goes up for the duration. I perform a quick cut-back on the joystick, the ship avoids certain death. It's this direct "see it happen on the screen, filter it through the brain for processing, react to it with the joystick" formula that has classified shmups as "TWITCH GAMING" - the need for split second, almost involuntary decisions to stay alive. Twitch gaming appeals to a certain percentage of gamers, and those are the ones you will find piloting R-9 crafts across the galaxy.
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Post by SAM »

Any video games I would play. :lol:
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Post by angrycoder »

Asherdude wrote:
Icarus wrote:@JoshF:
There's a reason why people are trying to subcategorise different variants of games: so that it makes it easier to find games of a similar style of gameplay and design. The way you categorise, we might as well not have subcategories, and should call everything "games". Yeah, that'll make things really fucking easy to organise.
This is my point exactly. We (the people who should know better) are labeling games like Contra as "platformers".
Nobody is labeling Contra a platformer. Contra is a run and gun. So is metal Slug.

If someone tells you they really like Contra, you'd tell them to check out Metal Slug.

If someone tells you they really like Mario, you'd tell them to check out Sonic.

If someone tells you they really like Ikaruga, and you tell them to check out Contra, you are retarded and deserve a dick in your ass.
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Post by Asherdude »

angrycoder wrote: Nobody is labeling Contra a platformer. Contra is a run and gun. So is metal Slug.

If someone tells you they really like Contra, you'd tell them to check out Metal Slug.

If someone tells you they really like Mario, you'd tell them to check out Sonic.

If someone tells you they really like Ikaruga, and you tell them to check out Contra, you are retarded and deserve a dick in your ass.
Contra has been labeled a "platformer" more than once in this thread.

Ikaruga? Contra doesn't have polarity shields, chain combos, nor does it rely heavily on memorization. But if they liked R-Type, I'd tell 'em that they ought to give Contra a try.
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Post by Turrican »

SHMUPS:

1- must involve a visible avatar on screen;
2- your avatar moves on a two-dimension plane, either on one or two axes;
3- your avatar shoots;
4- your avatar, its bullets, and the enemies are all on the same plane;

5- forced scrolling is not always required (although it became a standard de facto for modern shmups);
6- the enemies come mainly from a direction, as opposed to arena shooters where the enemies surround your avatar (Robotron). Allowed in "shmups" are those arena shooters in which the scrolling is forced (Time Pilot, Thunderforce II overhead stages);
7- the emphasis of the game is on shooting and dodging - not jumping or dealing with platforms and gravity;
8- perspective is not an issue as long as the avatar is visible and the action takes place on the same plane (vertical, horizontal, tubular, isometric);


Contra, Metal Slug, Gunstar Heroes are not shmups (Run'n Gun type of platformers)

Robotron, Smash TV, Alien Breed are not shmups (arena shooters)

PDragoon, REZ, Space Harrier, Zaxxon are not shmups (3D shooting games / on-rail)

Asteroids is not a shmup (shooting game with simulation controls)

Bangaioh, Assault Suit Valken, Space Harrier, Panorama Cotton, Galaxy Force, Metal Slug, Turrican, Subterrania, Kikikaikai... All these games are borderliners, games that don't fit the shmup criteria but have heavy shooting elements in them. More often than not they belong to the great family of shooting games, yet they don't qualify to enter the subcategory of "shmups".
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Post by DazTM »

Turrican wrote:SHMUPS:

1- must involve a visible avatar on screen;
2- your avatar moves on a two-dimension plane, either on one or two axes;
3- your avatar shoots;
4- your avatar, its bullets, and the enemies are all on the same plane;

5- forced scrolling is not always required (although it became a standard de facto for modern shmups);
6- the enemies come mainly from a direction, as opposed to arena shooters where the enemies surround your avatar (Robotron). Allowed in "shmups" are those arena shooters in which the scrolling is forced (Time Pilot, Thunderforce II overhead stages);
7- the emphasis of the game is on shooting and dodging - not jumping or dealing with platforms and gravity;
8- perspective is not an issue as long as the avatar is visible and the action takes place on the same plane (vertical, horizontal, tubular, isometric);


Contra, Metal Slug, Gunstar Heroes are not shmups (Run'n Gun type of platformers)

Robotron, Smash TV, Alien Breed are not shmups (arena shooters)

PDragoon, REZ, Space Harrier, Zaxxon are not shmups (3D shooting games / on-rail)

Asteroids is not a shmup (shooting game with simulation controls)

Bangaioh, Assault Suit Valken, Space Harrier, Panorama Cotton, Galaxy Force, Metal Slug, Turrican, Subterrania, Kikikaikai... All these games are borderliners, games that don't fit the shmup criteria but have heavy shooting elements in them. More often than not they belong to the great family of shooting games, yet they don't qualify to enter the subcategory of "shmups".
Hmm, this seems a pretty good basis to start from.
I can then use a sub-genre catagory to cover the likes of Robotron, Rez, Panzer Dragoon, Star Fox etc.

Thanks for putting this together Turrican.
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Post by JoshF »

Every game you mentioned is a shooting game. I always thought "shmup" was short for "shoot 'em up," which is another word for a shooting game. I'm glad you at least called what you think is a shmup a subgenre, while everyone else here seems perfectly content on planting the branch and calling it the tree.

The problem lies in the connotation of the word. Someone needs to come up with a five-letter euphemism for "horizontal or vertical orientation with an avatar you can freely move in every direction on a 2d area that has auto scrolling and no gravity and you cant turn around" because clearly the existing term has outlived it's usefulness as an acronym (saturated with h4rdc0r3 to the point where it no longer represents it's actual meaning.)
If someone tells you they really like Ikaruga, and you tell them to check out Contra, you are retarded and deserve a dick in your ass.
You'd deserve an equally thick dick if you suggested Xevious or Gradius. I'm pretty sure this rationale was destroyed a page or so ago.
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Post by CMoon »

JoshF wrote:
If someone tells you they really like Ikaruga, and you tell them to check out Contra, you are retarded and deserve a dick in your ass.
You'd deserve an equally thick dick if you suggested Xevious or Gradius. I'm pretty sure this rationale was destroyed a page or so ago.
Of course forgetting that Gradius V is by Treasure, right?

Although I agree with Angry coder's sentiment and think a few of you are just being obstinate, the interesting question is whether the range of differences between the two most disparate shooters is more or less than the differences between any given shooter and any given borderliner.

The base assumption here (and the one I assume to be true) is that Ikaruga is closer to Xevious (or even proto-shmups like Space Invaders) than to Contra.
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Post by Turrican »

DazTM wrote:Hmm, this seems a pretty good basis to start from.
I can then use a sub-genre catagory to cover the likes of Robotron, Rez, Panzer Dragoon, Star Fox etc.

Thanks for putting this together Turrican.
You're welcome. Imho you should do an article on "Shooting Games", and then specify that they include several subgenres, shmups being one of them.

Seems a good time to show this again:

The Shooting Game Family:
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/389/caseapw2.jpg
Examples of shmups:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3396/ashmuprh5.jpg
Why Zaxxon is a 3D shooting game, not a shmup:
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3081 ... muppv8.jpg

@JoshF: I think we think roughly the same. It's just that "shmup" with years became a technical term to define a specific branch of shooting games. So even if they started as synonyms, Shooting Games and Shmups begun to mean slightly different things. I appreciate the current differentiation, because it underlines that a certain group of shooting games developed a set of "canon" features and established something that became a significant subgenre with its own rules.
CMoon wrote:The base assumption here (and the one I assume to be true) is that Ikaruga is closer to Xevious (or even proto-shmups like Space Invaders) than to Contra.
Of course I agree.
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Post by JoshF »

Of course forgetting that Gradius V is by Treasure, right?
Let's temporarily suspend the "Gradius V isn't a real Gradius game" sentiment around here for the sake of argument dogpiling. If you recommended Gradius V of course that would be acceptable.
@JoshF: I think we think roughly the same. It's just that "shmup" with years became a technical term to define a specific branch of shooting games. So even if they started as synonyms, Shooting Games and Shmups begun to mean slightly different things. I appreciate the current differentiation, because it underlines that a certain group of shooting games developed a set of "canon" features and established something that became a significant subgenre with its own rules.
Problem solved :D . Put this in a dictionary.
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Post by Randorama »

I find amazing how pointing out the method to the problem's solution has been dodged so far. Well not really, hilarious but not amazing.
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