shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:29 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 156 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Your definition of a shoot-em-up
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:14 am 



Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 163
Location: Bournemouth
I've always gone for the standard spaceship/vehicle mowing down waves of enemies. But if that's the example of a true shmup where do the following fit in...

Robotron: 2084
Rez
Panzer Dragoon
Major Havok
Space War
Mercs
Forgotten Worlds


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:35 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 1680
Location: Utah *ugh*
Some consider them shoot'em ups, some don't, they all have sub-genres like "run 'n' gun" or whatnot, but the general consensus is that they're all "borderliners." Which is to say a shoot 'em up, but not quite =P

From our Glossary

Borderliner: Broad term used to describe “shooting” games that many, but not all, players do not consider to quite qualify technically as shmups. Examples include “Run n’ Gun” shooters (Contra, Metal Slug), “Rail” shooters (Panzer Dragoon, Star Fox), and “Tube” shooters (Gyruss). As with shmups themselves, there really is no hard-and-fast definition of what exactly constitutes a “borderliner,” and individual conceptions of it vary widely.
_________________
Image


Last edited by Arvandor on Tue May 29, 2007 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:36 am 


Banned User
User avatar

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: gobble gobble
1 of many criteria
You have to actually dodge stuff.

YAY
_________________
<Sidwell> TSS is manlier than a jet figher made of biceps.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:19 am 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 4355
Location: Berlin, Germany
Any game where you shoot something is a shoot 'em up afaiac.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your definition of a shoot-em-up
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:25 am 


User avatar

Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 1154
Location: Ecuador
Robotron: 2084 - arena shooter
Rez - on-rails shooter a la Star Fox
Panzer Dragoon - read above
Major Havok - never played
Space War - read above
Mercs - does not autoscroll, so no
Forgotten Worlds - the only shmup on this list


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:32 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 7932
Any game made by Takumi in 1999 and 2000 that isn't Medal Panic.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Your definition of a shoot-em-up
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:16 am 



Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 31
Location: San Antonio, Texas
shinsage wrote:
Mercs - does not autoscroll, so no


Which would sink Twinkle Tale on the MD (which some consider to be a shmup...I don't), but not games like Undead Line and Elemental Master, also on the MD...games with a forced scroll. However, then you get into a problem area with games like Granada on MD and Metal Stoker on PCE...tank shooting games without a forced scroll and games generally considered to be shmups. On a basic level, there is really no difference between games like this and Twinkle Tale...except you are a tank instead of a person. There is a lot of gray area here. Also, non-scrolling games like Space Invaders and the many knock-offs it spawned are considered to be shmups...but some people consider Space Raiders on GC/PS2 to be an action/shooting game. However, with the exception of being a person, this game plays exactly like Space Invaders. Those "on-rail" shooters...eh...I just categorize them as "3D shooters" and leave it at that.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:16 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 1439
Location: Lurking at the end of the starfields!!
If it shoots, has them, and is up, then it's a shoot 'em up.
_________________
Trek trough the Galaxy on silver wings and play football online.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 18347
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs
Rob wrote:
Any game made by Takumi in 1999 and 2000 that isn't Medal Panic.

Most any game by Toaplan that isn't Get Star or, er, that goofy-ass breakout derivative.

:lol:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:37 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 3933
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Does anyone think In The Hunt is not a shmup because it doesn't have forced scroll?

DazTM, you got yourself in dangerous territory with this question. There will be hundreds of replies and not a definitive answer, I guess :)

Rez, Panzer Dragoon and Mercs definitively are not shmups. Rez also is the MOST OVERRATED GAME EVER ...

I wouldn't classify either Robotron or Space War as shmups, but Forgotten Worlds qualify.

So.. erm... I agree with shinsage.

A shmup requires that you control something that shoots at enemies (Every Extend is out?), and those enemies shoot back at you. The action must happen ONLY in 2 axis. The point of view doesn't matter, as long as the main action only happens in 2 axis. Scroll must be forced (Leaving In The Hunt out?). Your character also can't "jump" (like Sonic jumps), unless this jump exists only to make you avoid incoming dangers (Like Undeadline, Aleste Gaiden, Last Duel) . You also should not have complete freedom to change the direction of your shots, but if you can change it through a gimmick that shortens your freedom, its ok (Side Arms, Forgotten Worlds, Gunsmoke... wait, all Capcom games? :D), and you should have direct control of the movement of your "avatar", unlike games like Asteroids, where you "rotate and acellerate".

Reading all this... I think I don't agree with the "forced scroll" bit, as this leaves In The Hunt and lots of "protoshmups" out.
_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:27 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 3725
Location: Almere, Netherlands
Shatterhand wrote:
I think I don't agree with the "forced scroll" bit, as this leaves In The Hunt and lots of "protoshmups" out.
Look, we the shmups community have to draw the line somewhere. No fixed scrolling can never be a shmup. As far as In the Hunt goes, it is not a shmup, by these rules. Although it looks like a shmup that they just took the fixed scrolling out of. Perhaps it had too much slow down and in a last second attempt they removed the fixed scrolling. So there, In the Hunt is not a shmup, because it plays very differently. I would consider In the hunt a game just like Galaxy Zone and those games where you can go left and right, not a shmup. Because there is emphasis on where you're going/speed means less manic gameplay. That's why this community says automate the scrolling, we'll do the blasting/dodging. Are you guys with me on this? :lol:
Seen alot of these threads lately surely this is stated in a sticky somewhere. Or on wikipedia? An idea?
_________________
Pixel_Outlaw wrote:
Good, hopefully it will return us to the dark ages of gaming where multiple people could play on one television and you actually had to have real friends.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:50 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 408
It would be interesting to also know:

1) Your 1st shmup
2) When you 1st played it
3) Your age

... for a 'correlation' on 'responses' in this thread to the OP.

I'll probably post something later...
_________________
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:51 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 3933
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
I really don't care too much :D Notice that I made the description based in what the community believes and said forced scroll is needed, THEN I added a personal view.

Galaxy Force has 3 axis of action, that's why it doesn't qualify as a shmups. Much like Zaxxon.

Is Moon Patrol a shmup? :D
_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:04 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 2833
I just looked at the obi strip on my copy of Katei Daisensou. It says "ボーダーライナー"
_________________
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:11 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 3692
Location: Europe
j^aws wrote:
I'll probably post something later...


Please don't.
_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:24 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 408
Ceph wrote:
j^aws wrote:
I'll probably post something later...


Please don't.


Don't like my opinions? Don't read them.
_________________
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:24 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 671
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Shoot 'Em Up: It has to be vertical :P


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 2833
Score counter must be 7 digits long (more is considered nü shmup.)
_________________
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:41 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 1425
Location: Chi-town, IL
Nuke wrote:
If it shoots, has them, and is up, then it's a shoot 'em up.


Correct.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:11 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 7280
Location: England
j^aws wrote:
It would be interesting to also know:

1) Your 1st shmup
2) When you 1st played it
3) Your age

... for a 'correlation' on 'responses' in this thread to the OP.

I'll probably post something later...


If this and the OP's question were RPG monsters, they'd be the really annoying, constantly respawning, randomly-attacking-when-you're-ten-steps-away-from-the-nearest-savepoint, Firaga-fodder monsters.

Been there, done that. Lots of past threads on the matter.

And answering them for the billionth time:
1) First shmup? - Stargate, Atari 2600
2) When you first played it? - six years old, nearly 20 years ago
3) Your age? - 25yrs and 10mths
4) What is a shmup? - a miserable little pile of bullets.
_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:13 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 408
Icarus wrote:
j^aws wrote:
It would be interesting to also know:

1) Your 1st shmup
2) When you 1st played it
3) Your age

... for a 'correlation' on 'responses' in this thread to the OP.

I'll probably post something later...


If this and the OP's question were RPG monsters, they'd be the really annoying, constantly respawning, randomly-attacking-when-you're-ten-steps-away-from-the-nearest-savepoint, Firaga-fodder monsters.


Interesting. Yet no one forces you to play them?

Icarus wrote:
Been there, done that. Lots of past threads on the matter.


Yeah, I've skimmed a few of those: Posted plenty of my opinions in the last 2006 Top 25 discussion thread too... (Drama!)

Are you inferring why the thread is still open? There's a MOD in this thread (Shatterhand) and its been left open... Why am I suddenly detecting 'angst' in this thread?... I blame my avatar! :) ... "It's an Alien! Shoot it!"

Icarus wrote:
And answering them for the billionth time:
1) First shmup? - Stargate, Atari 2600
2) When you first played it? - six years old, nearly 20 years ago
3) Your age? - 25yrs and 10mths
4) What is a shmup? - a miserable little pile of bullets.


Nice. You still play Stargate?... I loved the Arcade version... couldn't get into any other versions due to significant control/ gameplay changes, though the MAT and MAME versions are pretty close...

Outside forums: I've never cared much myself of the "definition"... I vaguely remember reading some stuff in magazines during the 80's but didn't pay much attention...

Eligibility for the Annual Top 25 and being 'on-topic' seems to spark the debate on the matter: Understandable because those lists can be very 'personal'...
_________________
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:24 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 408
Shatterhand wrote:
...
Is Moon Patrol a shmup? :D


How can you answer that without 'defining' what a shmup is? :)
_________________
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:11 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 5074
Location: OHIO
The following definition of a shmup is sufficient for most purposes: a 2D shooter with character movement up, down, left, and right and forced scrolling, games like Gradius, R-Type, and DDP. There is a point to having a category of this sort because so many games are modelled after Gradius, R-Type, and the like, and are quite different from other 2D shooters like Contra/Metal Slug and Robotron/Geometry Wars and...

This definition will not suit all needs, of course.
_________________
my research


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:50 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 7932
While autoscroll is common it isn't a necessary element. Ex. A: Fantasy Zone. There's no way Fantasy Zone is anything but a 2D space shooter.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:54 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 3933
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
I think in Fantasy Zone the screen keeps scrolling all the time, even if in a very slow speed. Or am I wrong? (Guess when you are on ground, it will eventually stop scrolling if you don't keep moving with it)

Defender in the other side doesn't keep scrolling.
_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:02 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 408
Shatterhand wrote:
...
Defender in the other side doesn't keep scrolling.


... And Space Invaders doesn't scroll at all! :)

Defender has a 2-way stick like SI... just moving up/ down and using 'reverse' is like 2 SI games being played simultaneously, although horizontally!
_________________
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:56 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 5074
Location: OHIO
Space Invaders and Defender are (strictly speaking) proto-shmups. (Just as some animals might be said to have "proto-beliefs", psychological states that are very much belief-like, but not strictly speaking beliefs.)
_________________
my research


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:17 am 


User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 2833
Why use the Japanese system when we can invent rigid elite fake-scientific cerebral masturbation criteria? Here it is in case you're wondering just how bad it is.

Shooting (Galaga, Gradius, Fantasy Zone, Katei Daisensou)
Action Shooting (Twinkle Tale, Metal Slug)
3D Shooting (Afterburner, Zaxxon, Doom)

Fucking stone-age. :x
_________________
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 3:44 am 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 250
JoshF wrote:
Why use the Japanese system when we can invent rigid elite fake-scientific cerebral masturbation criteria? Here it is in case you're wondering just how bad it is.

Shooting (Galaga, Gradius, Fantasy Zone, Katei Daisensou)
Action Shooting (Twinkle Tale, Metal Slug)
3D Shooting (Afterburner, Zaxxon, Doom)

Fucking stone-age. :x

Back in the day, all of those were called "shooters" - a game who's scoring system is based on shooting things. Back then, if someone were to mention "run-n-gun", we wouldn't know what you were talking about. So, I agree with Malc's original opinion to include Contra HC in the Xenocide Files. All of these "sub-genre's" are only serving to dilute an already small gaming category.

Exclude "In The Hunt"? <shakes head> At this rate you guys are going to want to exclude Guwange, because it has people running around on the ground.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 4:01 am 


User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 2833
Fascism. Shooting games are diverse, what you call a shmup is really a sub-category. Focusing on them is a misrepresentation of the genre.
_________________
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 156 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group