5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Results

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Michaelm
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Post by Michaelm »

Turrican wrote:
Ceph wrote:The voting-system needs to be fixed!
I don't think the actual system is that bad, once you understand it. It basically gives you the opportunity to really push forward one or a few games you want, at the expense of the other games you just want to "mention". Basically your own list already has "real votes" and "honorable mentions". If I had known the results, I would have gladly put all my voting weight on Gradius V.
I don't like the weight thing either. There are far too few voters for such a system to bring any good if you ask me.
I think it would be better to just throw in 25 shmup games in your list without any points and then the top25 will be calculated from that. So the game that gets voted by most voters will be #1 and so on.
I think this would be a more accurate representation of us few voters.

Personally I had a hard time giving points to individual games so I ended up giving most games the same amount of points.
All errors are intentional but mistakes could have been made.
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Danny
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Post by Danny »

Can't we just keep things simple and just vote for a maxium 25 games with predefined points depending on position?

I can understand some people may of not played 25 shmups (eh?) but it apears to be the easist and fairest way of doing this.
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Twiddle
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Post by Twiddle »

this is the lamest fucking #1 ever

though to be fair it deserves it for this thread
so long and tanks for all the spacefish
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Ceph
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Post by Ceph »

Alright, here it is, the non-scaled, non-bullshit Top 25 of 2006. 1 point per game, only 25 games per voter. If there were more than 25 games on a list, then only the 25 highest-rated were counted (happened only two cases so it doesn't matter much). Several games share an equal score.

Score in brackets.

Code: Select all

01. (41) Gradius V
02. (40) DoDonpachi
03. (36) Battle Garegga
04. (33) Ikaruga
05. (32) Armed Police Batrider
06. (29) Shikigami no Shiro II / Castle Shikigami 2
07. (28) ESP Ra.De. , ESPGaluda, Dodonpachi Daioujou, Radiant Silvergun, Rayforce
08. (27) Border Down
09. (26) Mars Matrix, Raiden DX
10. (25) Soukyugurentai
11. (24) R-Type Delta, Strikers 1945 II, R-Type, Mushihime-Sama
12. (23) Einhänder, Guwange, Gradius Gaiden
13. (22) Thunder Force III, Gunbird 2 
14. (21) Under Defeat, G-Darius, Thunder Force IV, Giga Wing
15. (20) Darius Gaiden, Progear no Arashi
16. (19) Donpachi
17. (17) Blazing Star, Battle Bakraid, Thunder Force V, Dragon Blaze
18. (16) Dangun Feveron, Sexy Parodius
19. (15) Ibara
20. (14) Batsugun, Salamander (FC) / Life Force (NES), Musha Aleste, Pulstar
21. (13) Zero Gunner 2 
22. (12) Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger 
23. (11) 19XX, Lords of Thunder / Winds of Thunder, Raiden II, Giga Wing 2
24. (10) Twinkle Star Sprites, Axelay, Ketsui, R-Type III, Psyvariar 2, Strikers 1945, Viewpoint, Soldier Blade, Zanac Neo
25. (09) Fire Shark / Same! Same! Same!, Raiden, Recca, Gradius II, Hyper Duel 
The re-counting took several hours. Enjoy!
Last edited by Ceph on Wed May 09, 2007 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Michaelm
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Post by Michaelm »

Nice list Ceph, Thanks !
All errors are intentional but mistakes could have been made.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Ceph wrote:Several games share an equal score.
Problem with the 1 point idea.

Mars Matrix closer to where it belongs, at least.
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Ceph
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Post by Ceph »

An idea for the next Top 25 could be to make it mandatory to list 25 games and rank them from 1-25. Very unlikely that any two games would end up with the same score that way. And anyone who doesn't know 25 shoot 'em ups really shouldn't be voting in the first place.
Michaelm wrote: Nice list Ceph, Thanks !
You are welcome.
Last edited by Ceph on Wed May 09, 2007 9:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Danny
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Post by Danny »

Ceph wrote:

Code: Select all

01. (41) Gradius V
02. (40) DoDonpachi
03. (36) Battle Garegga
04. (33) Ikaruga
05. (32) Armed Police Batrider
06. (29) Shikigami no Shiro II / Castle Shikigami 2
07. (28) ESP Ra.De. , ESPGaluda, Dodonpachi Daioujou, Radiant Silvergun, Rayforce
08. (27) Border Down
09. (26) Mars Matrix, Raiden DX
10. (25) Soukyugurentai
11. (24) R-Type Delta, Strikers 1945 II, R-Type, Mushihime-Sama
12. (23) Einhänder, Guwange, Gradius Gaiden
13. (22) Thunder Force III, Gunbird 2 
14. (21) Under Defeat, G-Darius, Thunder Force IV, Giga Wing
15. (20) Darius Gaiden, Progear no Arashi
16. (19) Donpachi
17. (17) Blazing Star, Battle Bakraid, Thunder Force V, Dragon Blaze
18. (16) Dangun Feveron, Sexy Parodius
19. (15) Ibara
20. (14) Batsugun, Salamander (FC) / Life Force (NES), Musha Aleste, Pulstar
21. (13) Zero Gunner 2 
22. (12) Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger 
23. (11) 19XX, Lords of Thunder / Winds of Thunder, Raiden II, Giga Wing 2
24. (10) Twinkle Star Sprites, Axelay, Ketsui, R-Type III, Psyvariar 2, Strikers 1945, Viewpoint, Soldier Blade, Zanac Neo
25. (09) Fire Shark / Same! Same! Same!, Raiden, Recca, Gradius II, Hyper Duel 
WOW dude that's awesome. Seriously this is very intresting stuff. Much more broader range of games and a lot of old classics make a welcome return to the table. :D
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Post by MX7 »

If you rank a game 1st, it should get more weighting than if you rank a game second and so on. I don't see what's wrong with this. Cry harder.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Danny wrote: WOW dude that's awesome. Seriously this is very intresting stuff. Much more broader range of games and a lot of old classics make a welcome return to the table. :D
That's 'cause there's much more than 25 games listed there. If you count the first 25 it ends the same, at Under Defeat (and the 3 others it's tied with).
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Michaelm
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Post by Michaelm »

I don't see what is so wrong with having more games share an equal place ?

I find it very difficult to rank 25 games by points.
All errors are intentional but mistakes could have been made.
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Ceph
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Post by Ceph »

Rob wrote:
Danny wrote: WOW dude that's awesome. Seriously this is very intresting stuff. Much more broader range of games and a lot of old classics make a welcome return to the table. :D
That's 'cause there's much more than 25 games listed there. If you count the first 25 it ends the same, at Under Defeat (and the 3 others it's tied with).
Yeah, but now games like Strikers 1945 II are on the list, games that wouldn't be there if allowing votes like

1000000000000000000000000000000 Game A
1 Game B
1 Game C
1 Game D
1 Game E


I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be done like that next time
An idea for the next Top 25 could be to make it mandatory to list 25 games and rank them from 1-25. Very unlikely that any two games would end up with the same score that way. And anyone who doesn't know 25 shoot 'em ups really shouldn't be voting in the first place.
Your first game gets 25 points, your second one 24, etc ..., your last one gets 1. That should be quite enough to show which you prefer.
Last edited by Ceph on Wed May 09, 2007 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Michaelm
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Post by Michaelm »

Well putting them in order line by line is the same as giving a game a point between 25 and 1 :?
The first few lines would be relatively easy but then it starts breaking my head :cry:
All errors are intentional but mistakes could have been made.
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MA7
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Post by MA7 »

Wow I'm really suprised by the results. I thought Guwange would receive FAR more lovin' than it did, and certainly hit the top 25.

As a frequent visitor on the boards I felt it was a duty to vote in the poll, and I'm disappointed that so few users voted. >2500 registered users but less than 100 voters? Come on gang, let's get a decent turn out next time!

Regardless, it's been fun watching the discussions and voting going on, and the final list ( + Ceph's 'recount') is an interesting read, so loads of thanks to all involved. :D
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Turrican
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Post by Turrican »

Ceph wrote:Alright, here it is, the non-scaled, non-bullshit Top 25 of 2006. 1 point per game, only 25 games per voter. If there were more than 25 games on a list, then only the 25 highest-rated were counted (happened only two cases so it doesn't matter much). Several games share an equal score.

Score in brackets.

Code: Select all

01. (41) Gradius V
02. (40) DoDonpachi
03. (36) Battle Garegga
04. (33) Ikaruga
05. (32) Armed Police Batrider
06. (29) Shikigami no Shiro II / Castle Shikigami 2
07. (28) ESP Ra.De. , ESPGaluda, Dodonpachi Daioujou, Radiant Silvergun, Rayforce
08. (27) Border Down
09. (26) Mars Matrix, Raiden DX
10. (25) Soukyugurentai
11. (24) R-Type Delta, Strikers 1945 II, R-Type, Mushihime-Sama
12. (23) Einhänder, Guwange, Gradius Gaiden
13. (22) Thunder Force III, Gunbird 2 
14. (21) Under Defeat, G-Darius, Thunder Force IV, Giga Wing
15. (20) Darius Gaiden, Progear no Arashi
16. (19) Donpachi
17. (17) Blazing Star, Battle Bakraid, Thunder Force V, Dragon Blaze
18. (16) Dangun Feveron, Sexy Parodius
19. (15) Ibara
20. (14) Batsugun, Salamander (FC) / Life Force (NES), Musha Aleste, Pulstar
21. (13) Zero Gunner 2 
22. (12) Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger 
23. (11) 19XX, Lords of Thunder / Winds of Thunder, Raiden II, Giga Wing 2
24. (10) Twinkle Star Sprites, Axelay, Ketsui, R-Type III, Psyvariar 2, Strikers 1945, Viewpoint, Soldier Blade, Zanac Neo
25. (09) Fire Shark / Same! Same! Same!, Raiden, Recca, Gradius II, Hyper Duel 
The re-counting took several hours. Enjoy!
Very interesting. It goes without saying that these results please me. I hope you take some hours more and post a similar recount for 2004 and 2005.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=584 (3rd annual)
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=7506 (4th annual)

Also awesome is the amount of Dariuses and Toaplans that get on the list with this method... Not to mention Salamander. :)

P.S. seems to me that this list should end at Gunbird 2, though. It's clearly obvious that a top 25 should be made with no more than 25 games, therefore:


01.Gradius V
02.DoDonpachi
03.Battle Garegga
04.Ikaruga
05.Armed Police Batrider
06.Shikigami no Shiro II
07.ESP Ra.De.
ESPGaluda
Dodonpachi Daioujou
Radiant Silvergun
Rayforce
08.Border Down
09.Mars Matrix
Raiden DX
10.Soukyugurentai
11.R-Type Delta
Strikers 1945 II
R-Type
Mushihime-Sama
12.Einhänder
Guwange
Gradius Gaiden
13.Thunder Force III
Gunbird 2


...as Rob said above.
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Michaelm
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Post by Michaelm »

Turrican wrote:It's clearly obvious that a top 25 should be made with no more than 25 games
No it isn't !
The obvious part is that games will be placed on a spot ranging from number 1 to 25.
If multiple games get the same amount of points they should share the same spot.
It's not the WC soccer we're doing here.
All errors are intentional but mistakes could have been made.
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Post by j^aws »

IMHO, the current voting system is simple; yet sophisticated (read the rules carefully). It's *your* vote, and use it how you see fit.

The 1st Annual Event was a 'seed' for the community...
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous
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Post by Ayanami »

I can't believe Castle of Shikigami 2 made it on the top 25.
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Post by MX7 »

Ceph wrote:
01.Gradius V
02.DoDonpachi
03.Battle Garegga
04.Ikaruga
05.Armed Police Batrider
06.Shikigami no Shiro II
07.ESP Ra.De.
ESPGaluda
Dodonpachi Daioujou
Radiant Silvergun
Rayforce
12.Border Down
13.Mars Matrix
Raiden DX
15.Soukyugurentai
16.R-Type Delta
Strikers 1945 II
R-Type
Mushihime-Sama
20.Einhänder
Guwange
Gradius Gaiden
23.Thunder Force III
24.Gunbird 2
25:Under Defeat
fixed
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Post by doctorx0079 »

Danny wrote:
Ceph wrote:

Code: Select all

01. (41) Gradius V
02. (40) DoDonpachi
03. (36) Battle Garegga
04. (33) Ikaruga
05. (32) Armed Police Batrider
06. (29) Shikigami no Shiro II / Castle Shikigami 2
07. (28) ESP Ra.De. , ESPGaluda, Dodonpachi Daioujou, Radiant Silvergun, Rayforce
08. (27) Border Down
09. (26) Mars Matrix, Raiden DX
10. (25) Soukyugurentai
11. (24) R-Type Delta, Strikers 1945 II, R-Type, Mushihime-Sama
12. (23) Einhänder, Guwange, Gradius Gaiden
13. (22) Thunder Force III, Gunbird 2 
14. (21) Under Defeat, G-Darius, Thunder Force IV, Giga Wing
15. (20) Darius Gaiden, Progear no Arashi
16. (19) Donpachi
17. (17) Blazing Star, Battle Bakraid, Thunder Force V, Dragon Blaze
18. (16) Dangun Feveron, Sexy Parodius
19. (15) Ibara
20. (14) Batsugun, Salamander (FC) / Life Force (NES), Musha Aleste, Pulstar
21. (13) Zero Gunner 2 
22. (12) Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger 
23. (11) 19XX, Lords of Thunder / Winds of Thunder, Raiden II, Giga Wing 2
24. (10) Twinkle Star Sprites, Axelay, Ketsui, R-Type III, Psyvariar 2, Strikers 1945, Viewpoint, Soldier Blade, Zanac Neo
25. (09) Fire Shark / Same! Same! Same!, Raiden, Recca, Gradius II, Hyper Duel 
WOW dude that's awesome. Seriously this is very intresting stuff. Much more broader range of games and a lot of old classics make a welcome return to the table. :D
Now what will really bake your noodle is, if the poll was really scored like this, people would vote differently. How differently would they vote? Some would probably stay the same while other would be rather different. Perhaps the rules should be different next year just to see what happens.
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Post by RotateMe »

Wouldn't it help to give people a set number of points that they can distribute among 25 games? These points don`t have to be distributed but 25 games is a must.
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Post by Rob »

RotateMe wrote:Wouldn't it help to give people a set number of points that they can distribute among 25 games? These points don`t have to be distributed but 25 games is a must.
Too complicated for people who can't read the rules (30-40%).
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Post by j^aws »

RotateMe wrote:Wouldn't it help to give people a set number of points that they can distribute among 25 games? These points don`t have to be distributed but 25 games is a must.
Voting for 25 shmups gets you a 'set' number of 'points' or weighting so to speak.

i.e. 100 % of your 'points' = Sum of your integer score.

I don't really see a problem here... trying to 'reverse' engineer the final list to something more to your 'taste', will just have 'others' moaning at the final list instead...
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous
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Post by God »

the only other system I can think of is the plain each game = 1
I can think of a few:

-Everyone puts all the games they know in a ranked list. This way more weight can be giving to voters who know many games ("My favorite game is X" has more meaning when you know hundreds of games instead of just a handful.) but I don't know exactly how the numbers would get crunched. Maybe a game gets 1 point for every other game its ranked above? This would let less experienced users participate (sitting out is a drag), but we'd have to watch out for users inflating their lists with junk games.

-Everyone gives as many games as they feel like a rating from 0 to 10 (or whatever). Add the ratings up to find the most popular or average them to find out how well liked it is by the people who have played it. In the second case the problem would be obscure games with only one voter giving them a perfect average, so there'd need to be a minimum number of ratings for a game to be eligible. This system is from boardgamegeek.com and what's neat about them is they keep track of correlations in the ratings, so when you go to a game's page the site will basically say "80% of the people who like the game you're looking at also like games A, B and C." Maybe a Hidden Gems List made up of games with high ratings but only a few people rating them.

-IMHO, what the existing system needs is a cap on how much weight you can put behind one game relative to the others. Nobody really likes his favorite few games several times as much as the others ...or if he does that seems basically the same as only being able to come up with a couple games to vote for.
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Post by j^aws »

God wrote: -IMHO, what the existing system needs is a cap on how much weight you can put behind one game relative to the others.
- You already define your own 'relative' weighting by your arbitrary integer choices.

- You already have a 'cap' on your weighting upto 25 shmups, relative to other voters.

God wrote: Nobody really likes his favorite few games several times as much as the others ...or if he does that seems basically the same as only being able to come up with a couple games to vote for.
Is that what you think the relative integer numbers represent? ...How much one likes his favourites over the others?... Perhaps others chose their arbitrary integer numbers like that... I chose mine to influence the final list; because I strongly believe Stargate deserves a higher position than 'obscurity'...

So, what's still the problem with the current "rules", when the final list is still 'fine', IMO?
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous
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Post by jp »

I like Ceph's idea of giving points based on where its ranked, as opposed to the bizarre system we have now (no offense to whoever thought that up).

Like, number 1 spot = 25 points, number 2 spot = 24, and so on.

I dunno, it just seems like that would work out better, and would lay the rabid "Z0MG MY ENTIRE PIE TO DDP!!!!" thing to rest. Whereas I imagine a lot of us (myself included) are just like, "Ahhh... gotta make this point thing work with 25 games, lets see here..." without evening thinking about how to "play the system" and "affect the final list".

But thats just me. I do think results would be a bit more interesting then though.
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Post by cigsthecat »

I think next year we should be allowed negative votes. Then we can finish off DDP.
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Post by jp »

cigsthecat wrote:I think next year we should be allowed negative votes. Then we can finish off DDP.

NegaLists!!!!! That would be awesome.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

[-25] [Mushihimesama]
[-24] [Under Defeat]
[-23] [ESP RADE]
[-22] [ESP Galuda]
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Post by j^aws »

jp wrote: NegaLists!!!!!
ThatsRacist.gif

EDIT:

DDP could've been finished if more were aware of their voting powers...
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous
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