5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Results
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Zach Keene
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These lists are always the best around even if there are a few dents in the armor this time.jpj wrote:i'm only kidding. but it's funny to see all these "zomg lol look at this shmup list on such and such website - n00bz!!!" threads in the chat section. and our lists are just as bad...
Heh, no. Games like R-Type Final definitely would.If EVERY SHMUPPER IN THE WORLD had registered to the forum and voted, we'd be seeing a much better spread of votes, and stuff like Ketsui might be in the top 10.
Check the "sc votes" column. It's about equal to everything around it. Then look at Stargate or Ketsui.A handful of games got this kind of boost: Gunbird 2,
Wow, a great piece of worthless comment. Zach works to this poll for two months, and then what he should've done? Post the results and lock the thread immediately after because no discussion is allowed/leads anywhere? What's the point of doing it if you cannot comment on it once it's out?Icarus wrote:Gotta love the whining in this thread. People, this list is subjective, it is an percentage of opinion poll, not a list that represents the whole of the shmupping community across the world. Just because X game didnt make the list, is ranked lower or higher than expected, and/or the list differs from what you expect the list to look like, doesn't invalidate the list, it just means that opinion on particular games has shifted and/or more/less people voted this time around. If EVERY SHMUPPER IN THE WORLD had registered to the forum and voted, we'd be seeing a much better spread of votes, and stuff like Ketsui might be in the top 10.
Quit bitching.
Thanks Zach for doing this again. You must get a chuckle out of the following "discussion" every year, right? ^_-
These forums are for discussion, and it's perfectly fine if someone just want to rant about how it ended, close or not to their expectations. The whole internet works this way: there are people who discuss, and then there are who tell them to quit bitching, because they are clearly superior to this stuff. As futile as they both may be, I prefer the former.
I read well enough to see that everyone threw its humble two cents about what they liked/disliked, then you showed up making fun of everyone else, and without one single word to the charts.Icarus wrote:Good, smart discussion and debate is fine, and I prefer that.
Pages of "OH MY GOD this year's list sucks cock" is not worthy discussion.
Learn to read, dumbass.
You want to know what I think? I think the list is fine. It is a perfectly representative account of the past year of shmups.com opinion. The lack of classics such as R-Type, Defender and Xevious does not surprise me considering the lack of exposure they get among the community. But you know what, even if retro games aren't in the top 25, they'd still be timeless classics that will be fondly remembered even when the current trends diminish. Batrider gained a lot of exposure through STGT which seems to be continuing given the slow but steady movement in the highscore thread. Whether or not it continues to gain popularity remains to be seen. I would definitely expect this years STGT to provide more exposure to the selected games, which in turn may give them a chance to make it into next year's top 25.
Given that every year <100 people vote means that many particulars will not make the big chart. Considering that ~100 voters on a Western shootemup forum is a tiny fraction of the actual registered userbase here, which in itself is a small percentage of the possible total of Western players, which in itself is an even smaller percentage of worldwide shmuppers means that the poll itself is not going to be totally accurate in representing the true top 25 shootemups. Maybe if by some miracle we get 500 votes next year from all active shmups.com members, we might see a more representative chart.
My only gripe is the scoring of the polls. People throwing massive amounts behind their votes will unbalance the poll a bit and particular games that get this push will be ranked a little higher than they should be, while other games will suffer in ranking as a result. Perhaps if scoring votes were done in a more orderly fashion - like 1st gets 25pts, 2nd gets 24pts and so on - then the ranking of games would be better as they'd be rated on their average position in the top 25, and not on how many points one particular person threw behind their vote for that game.
But hey, that's how things have been done in the past, so meh. Whatever.
tl:dr. Three-and-a-bit paragraphs to repeat what I said in my first post.
I want those ten minutes of my life back, twat.
Given that every year <100 people vote means that many particulars will not make the big chart. Considering that ~100 voters on a Western shootemup forum is a tiny fraction of the actual registered userbase here, which in itself is a small percentage of the possible total of Western players, which in itself is an even smaller percentage of worldwide shmuppers means that the poll itself is not going to be totally accurate in representing the true top 25 shootemups. Maybe if by some miracle we get 500 votes next year from all active shmups.com members, we might see a more representative chart.
My only gripe is the scoring of the polls. People throwing massive amounts behind their votes will unbalance the poll a bit and particular games that get this push will be ranked a little higher than they should be, while other games will suffer in ranking as a result. Perhaps if scoring votes were done in a more orderly fashion - like 1st gets 25pts, 2nd gets 24pts and so on - then the ranking of games would be better as they'd be rated on their average position in the top 25, and not on how many points one particular person threw behind their vote for that game.
But hey, that's how things have been done in the past, so meh. Whatever.
tl:dr. Three-and-a-bit paragraphs to repeat what I said in my first post.
I want those ten minutes of my life back, twat.
This part didn't make much sense before nor does it now. These things can never be "accurate". How many voters are involved has hardly any impact: even if you had all the western players to vote, everyone votes according to his own parameters. You couldn't really say what makes a game worthy of "top 25", nor anyone could... In short, I don't think such a thing like "the true top 25" exists.Icarus wrote:Given that every year <100 people vote means that many particulars will not make the big chart. Considering that ~100 voters on a Western shootemup forum is a tiny fraction of the actual registered userbase here, which in itself is a small percentage of the possible total of Western players, which in itself is an even smaller percentage of worldwide shmuppers means that the poll itself is not going to be totally accurate in representing the true top 25 shootemups. Maybe if by some miracle we get 500 votes next year from all active shmups.com members, we might see a more representative chart.
Many thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to read: your impressions, on which I incidentally agree (mostly). I also think that the STGT will have an impact on the following polls, and for the better.Icarus wrote:You want to know what I think? I think the list is fine. It is a perfectly representative account of the past year of shmups.com opinion. The lack of classics such as R-Type, Defender and Xevious does not surprise me considering the lack of exposure they get among the community. But you know what, even if retro games aren't in the top 25, they'd still be timeless classics that will be fondly remembered even when the current trends diminish. Batrider gained a lot of exposure through STGT which seems to be continuing given the slow but steady movement in the highscore thread. Whether or not it continues to gain popularity remains to be seen. I would definitely expect this years STGT to provide more exposure to the selected games, which in turn may give them a chance to make it into next year's top 25.
P.S. to insult people on boards is quite childish, I expected better from you.
Why don't you see GV fit for #1, Rob?Rob wrote: 6.815 . . . .
6.812
That's about as close as it gets. If I voted honestly (for shame) Gradius V would be #1 this year. Would it deserve it, though?? I like it a lot, but it doesn't seem right at the top and I didn't think Gradius V needed any extra votes (clearly didn't).
What was it someone said earlier in this thread? Maybe if all 40+ Ketsui players voted, it might have got into the top 25?Turrican wrote:This part didn't make much sense before nor does it now. These things can never be "accurate". How many voters are involved has hardly any impact: even if you had all the western players to vote, everyone votes according to his own parameters. You couldn't really say what makes a game worthy of "top 25", nor anyone could... In short, I don't think such a thing like "the true top 25" exists.
And that's my point. A tiny fraction of an already tiny community putting together a "top 25" will never be able to come up with a truly accurate representation of opinion. And as stated, maybe if the amount of votes somehow increased 5x-10x next year, then we might see a more accurate list. Maybe that combined with a more refined vote scoring system (not this "lets throw 666999pts behind Stargate LOL" system).
Until that happens though, the amount of complaining about this year's list being shit will continue to baffle.
You thought that was insulting?Turrican wrote:P.S. to insult people on boards is quite childish, I expected better from you.
Pfft.
I think the other way - as many already noticed in the discussion thread, there were some rules about knowing the stuff you're voting for, and they were basically avoided, as there's no way to check the voter's good intention. I cannot see how a 5x-10x increase would make things any more "accurate". And about the voters being a tiny fraction of shmups.com, it can't be helped, but it's not that tiny - it represents the active posters during these months.Icarus wrote:What was it someone said earlier in this thread? Maybe if all 40+ Ketsui players voted, it might have got into the top 25?
And that's my point. A tiny fraction of an already tiny community putting together a "top 25" will never be able to come up with a truly accurate representation of opinion. And as stated, maybe if the amount of votes somehow increased 5x-10x next year, then we might see a more accurate list. Maybe that combined with a more refined vote scoring system (not this "lets throw 666999pts behind Stargate LOL" system).
Not a fraction of how baffling is to hear complaining about complaining about this year's list.Icarus wrote:Until that happens though, the amount of complaining about this year's list being shit will continue to baffle.
Yes, quite. I guess we were raised with a different value of politeness. I hope you'll refrain from now on.Icarus wrote:You thought that was insulting?
Last edited by Turrican on Tue May 08, 2007 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A larger vote count would contribute to a better spread of averages. 3 out of 80 votes (one massively weighted) gives one game a boost to the Honorable Mentions group. 3 out of 500 votes (one massively weighted) means that game still won't make it into the top 50, since its average is lower. More votes means that games that get voted more will have a better chance of getting into the top 25, and would (hopefully) be less influenced by vote weighting. Better averages leads to a more accurate representation of community opinion.Turrican wrote:I cannot see how a 5x-10x increase would make things any more "accurate". And about the voters being a tiny fraction of shmups.com, it can't be helped, but it's not that tiny - it represents the active posters during these months.
That should be plainly obvious.
Nevertheless, it's still pretty pointless: I can't see why laugh and dismiss a chart made by 100 voters and hope for one made by 500... By any standard it would be still a small number, and again the voting rules were stating something about actually get to know these games before casting a vote mindlessly. So I'd say don't complain with the actual numbers, because it's unrealistic we'll gather much more.Icarus wrote:A larger vote count would contribute to a better spread of averages. 3 out of 80 votes (one massively weighted) gives one game a boost to the Honorable Mentions group. 3 out of 500 votes (one massively weighted) means that game still won't make it into the top 50, since its average is lower. More votes means that games that get voted more will have a better chance of getting into the top 25, and would (hopefully) be less influenced by vote weighting. Better averages leads to a more accurate representation of community opinion.
I don't think the quantity of electors has anything to do with you complaining about people's reactions - I bet you would've posted something in the lines of "quit bitching" anyway (even with 10,000 votes, the post-results debate wouldn't necessarily be any smarter). Be honest.
holshit 42 peopleNTSC-J wrote:Judging by the high score thread, 42 people apparently have. That's over half of the number of people that voted so Ketsui easily could have ranked.Dandy J wrote:NO ONE CAN PLAY ITNTSC-J wrote:Looks like Ketsui got shafted yet again. Shameful.
how many people have played dodonpachi i wonder
What the hell?Turrican wrote:Nevertheless, it's still pretty pointless: I can't see why laugh and dismiss a chart made by 100 voters and hope for one made by 500...
When did I dismiss this current poll results?
Did I mistype something or did you just completely misread my posts?
I assume that that particular rule was put in to stop people voting for games they've never played before? I would have thought that kind of practice would be avoided without having to enforce it via rules.Turrican wrote:By any standard it would be still a small number, and again the voting rules were stating something about actually get to know these games before casting a vote mindlessly.
Well, duh.Turrican wrote:I don't think the quantity of electors has anything to do with you complaining about people's reactions - I bet you would've posted something in the lines of "quit bitching" anyway. Be honest.
The difference between heated discussion and bitching is the amount of sentences you type.
LOL.Dandy J wrote:holshit 42 people
how many people have played dodonpachi i wonder
Icarus wrote:What the hell?Turrican wrote:Nevertheless, it's still pretty pointless: I can't see why laugh and dismiss a chart made by 100 voters and hope for one made by 500...
When did I dismiss this current poll results?
Did I mistype something or did you just completely misread my posts?
That's how I interpreted it - that until we get more voters, we can stop debating because apparently we're nowhere near accuracy right now. I only suggested that you would be baffled regardless of the number of voters...Icarus wrote:maybe if the amount of votes somehow increased 5x-10x next year, then we might see a more accurate list. [...] Until that happens though, the amount of complaining about this year's list being shit will continue to baffle.
The difference between this page and the previous two is that at least before people were talking about games.The difference between heated discussion and bitching is the amount of sentences you type.
Scaled votes, I think. My guess is everyone who votes for a game counts as 1 if they vote for 25 games, less than 1 if fewer.God wrote:I have no idea what those columns mean...is there an explanation somewhere?Rob wrote:Check the "sc votes" column. It's about equal to everything around it. Then look at Stargate or Ketsui.
DDP has more good shooter qualities, even if it's not the best at any of them (like scoring system, at least it has something there). Also, I think most people here like verts the best, so only fitting to see one on top. This is one reason G5 is so high, little competition for side-scrollers.Turrican wrote: Why don't you see GV fit for #1, Rob?
Sheesh, you're right: with both R-Type and Thunderforce III dropping from the top ten, this year was harsh for hories. GV is all alone up there, kinda like TFIII in 2002.Rob wrote:DDP has more good shooter qualities, even if it's not the best at any of them (like scoring system, at least it has something there). Also, I think most people here like verts the best, so only fitting to see one on top. This is one reason G5 is so high, little competition for side-scrollers.
Way to completely miss the following part of the sentence and take the comment out of context.Turrican wrote:That's how I interpreted it - that until we get more voters, we can stop debating because apparently we're nowhere near accuracy right now. I only suggested that you would be baffled regardless of the number of voters...Icarus wrote:maybe if the amount of votes somehow increased 5x-10x next year, then we might see a more accurate list. [...] Until that happens though, the amount of complaining about this year's list being shit will continue to baffle.
And referring back.Icarus wrote:maybe if the amount of votes somehow increased 5x-10x next year, then we might see a more accurate list. [...]Until that happens though, the amount of complaining about this year's list being shit will continue to baffle.
When did I say we should stop debating? Debating is fine, reading opinions on why X game is higher than Y game, or why certain games didn't get into the list is interesting. Posting the equivalent of "LOL shit sux ROFL" isn't exactly helping anyone.Icarus wrote:You want to know what I think? I think the list is fine. It is a perfectly representative account of the past year of shmups.com opinion.
Don't put words in my mouth.
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Sweet mother of God!Turrican wrote:The difference between this page and the previous two is that at least before people were talking about games.
We're talking about the poll itself now, how it is calculated, potential problems and possible solutions should the need arise. Not exactly off-topic material, is it? -_-;;
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Accessibility and replayability play a lot into it as well. While both are great games, I find that Dodonpachi keeps a player's attention a lot more than Gradius 5 simply because you can pick it up and play it over and over again, it is instant fun, with great depth. The problem with Gradius 5 is that it takes a long time to wind up, and spending an hour at a time per run to get to the fun bits gets boring after a while, and there's not much to get you coming back for more (I personally haven't touched it since the Euro tournament).Rob wrote:DDP has more good shooter qualities, even if it's not the best at any of them (like scoring system, at least it has something there). Also, I think most people here like verts the best, so only fitting to see one on top. This is one reason G5 is so high, little competition for side-scrollers.
I didn't miss the following sentence, I just thought it was funny to link it to a quantity-of-voters matter.Icarus wrote:Way to completely miss the following part of the sentence and take the comment out of context.
Right. That's why I wanted you to add to the discussion with some constructive thought, instead of just appearing and type "stop whining", like you initially did.Icarus wrote:Posting the equivalent of "LOL shit sux ROFL" isn't exactly helping anyone.
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No, it's okay - I'd say we're cool now. Speaking of which, I'm not entirely sure the actual vote scoring system needs an overhaul... I mean, the only other system I can think of is the plain each game = 1, but then we'd get the results all too easily, wouldn't we?Icarus wrote:Sweet mother of God!
We're talking about the poll itself now, how it is calculated, potential problems and possible solutions should the need arise. Not exactly off-topic material, is it? -_-;;
Instant fun? Well, I don't see the instant part when you know that you'll have to go for certain chains and not miss a single bee if you want a good hiscore...Icarus wrote:[DDP] is instant fun, with great depth.
I don't think so. There's no way Stargate got 3 whole vote pies if all it got was 3 votes.Rob wrote:Scaled votes, I think. My guess is everyone who votes for a game counts as 1 if they vote for 25 games, less than 1 if fewer.God wrote:I have no idea what those columns mean...is there an explanation somewhere?Rob wrote:Check the "sc votes" column. It's about equal to everything around it. Then look at Stargate or Ketsui.
I'm saying I think that column is just keeping track of the number of ("scaled") voters for a game, not the percentage of their vote or anything. You can see the effect of the points awarded in the ranking. If someone's bored and wants to check the thread it should probably be 3 separate voters with one being their (almost) entire vote, which bumped the game up to games that got 10+ votes. You can see the same with Ketsui, so figure dumping all points on a single game is like 10 separate people voting for it normally.
So if I really had wanted Nexzr on the list, all I'd have to do is vote ONLY for Nexzr? 5 People voted for it this time. Recca got 9 votes and isn't even on the honorable mention list!bVork wrote:Haha. Stargate got on with exactly THREE votes, including one tard who put his entire voting strength behind it
The voting-system needs to be fixed!
Maybe the voters should be allowed to list NO MORE than 25 games, and every shooter listed should simply get 1 point.
That's right. Thank this wacko for the presence of Stargate:Ceph wrote:So if I really had wanted Nexzr on the list, all I'd have to do is vote ONLY for Nexzr? 5 People voted for it this time. Recca got 9 votes and isn't even on the honorable mention list!bVork wrote:Haha. Stargate got on with exactly THREE votes, including one tard who put his entire voting strength behind it
The voting-system needs to be fixed!
Maybe the voters should be allowed to list NO MORE than 25 games, and every shooter listed should simply get 1 point.
As you can see, he put very nearly the entire weight of his vote behind Stargate.j^aws wrote:[666999] [Stargate, aka Defender 2 (AC)]
[69] [R-Type (AC)]
(snip everything that was given lower than 69 points)
bVork it up!
Extra weight should be given to favorites, just not 25 games worth of weight.Ceph wrote: Maybe the voters should be allowed to list NO MORE than 25 games, and every shooter listed should simply get 1 point.
Listing more than 25 games doesn't give anyone any extra voting power, so that doesn't really matter. It's just spreading points thinner.
Maybe a ~15-25% cap for a single game next time?
Last edited by Rob on Wed May 09, 2007 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Not exactly. Voting just for Nexzr would have made your pie to be smaller... In other words, your vote would still weight 1/25 than others. I think you should've done like the Stargate promoter: vote for no more than 25 games, 24 of them being just representative with [1].Ceph wrote:So if I really had wanted Nexzr on the list, all I'd have to do is vote ONLY for Nexzr?bVork wrote:Haha. Stargate got on with exactly THREE votes, including one tard who put his entire voting strength behind it
I don't think the actual system is that bad, once you understand it. It basically gives you the opportunity to really push forward one or a few games you want, at the expense of the other games you just want to "mention". Basically your own list already has "real votes" and "honorable mentions". If I had known the results, I would have gladly put all my voting weight on Gradius V.Ceph wrote:The voting-system needs to be fixed!