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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:47 pm 


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I pretty rapidly got stages 1-3 in Giga Wing 2 basic-routed, but now I'm slowly trying to figure out a route for the much more difficult stage 4, and stage 4 boss. I do think that some refining will be necessary in stages 1-3, but I've got plenty of time to figure that out.

It would also be really nice if I could actually consistently get the volcanons in stage 1, because it seems to double to triple my stage 1 score. Unfortunately I can't find any videos of Romi stage 1 anywhere, and at higher difficulties there are a lot more bullets and therefore a lot more medals, so the volcanons seem like they'd be easier to get. I'm guessing this is why Romi isn't as popular for score play, actually. I can get some decent volcanons on the boss, though. I'm very curious to see how my score will turn out once I get the ALL, though that's probably a long way away.

One thing that I'm not perfect on yet is the shield timing, which I'll probably need to get a lot better on. It's definitely a bit longer of an activation time than Mars Matrix. So far it's been a blast though. Unsurprisingly this game is probably the closest feeling to Mars Matrix of anything even though the shield is much less flexible than the MM one.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:52 am 


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One small tip for triggering the volcanons more easily: During the time the reflect shield is active, do not collect any of the regular medals. The volcanons are triggered by a sprite overflow, so that any medal on screen is very important.

Maybe you already knew about it anyway. Thought I'd just drop it here.

GW2 is a fantastic game! Have fun! :D
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:23 pm 


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Plasmo wrote:
One small tip for triggering the volcanons more easily: During the time the reflect shield is active, do not collect any of the regular medals. The volcanons are triggered by a sprite overflow, so that any medal on screen is very important.

Maybe you already knew about it anyway. Thought I'd just drop it here.

GW2 is a fantastic game! Have fun! :D

I sort of knew this, because I knew that they're triggered by having 110+ medals on the screen, but I should really probably put a bit more effort into actually making sure I'm not picking up medals that I don't have to until the volcanon. I know I also need to try to get the hang of the technique where people shield, then pull back a little, then push forward if you know what I mean. A lot of the videos that I've seen have that and I just have not gotten the hang of it yet.
Thanks for the advice!
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:53 pm 


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M.Knight wrote:
I think I got hit by the four red mechas that spawn from behind in Medium Course's Stage 3. That behavior may not be very common but I don't think it is nonexistent.


I checked again and enemies without damaging hitboxes seem to be the exception rather than the norm. Big pink enemies coming from behind in Beginner course Stage 2 can damage you, purple mechas coming from behind in Medium Course Stage 2 can do the same, and so on and so forth. It could be a shmupmame-related bug though.

Anyway, that's not the only gripe I have with the game. The more I play, the more I have difficulty bearing the myriad of ways Macross 2's bonuses force you to not always kill everything as fast as possible.

Medium Course Stage 1 has a 60k bonus that requires you to let a rather harmless enemy stay alive fifteen seconds or so just so that it can summon helper enemies that you have to kill for the bonus. The red mechas in Medium Course Stage 2 you have to let fire their missiles or those in the Final Stage you have to damage enough to have them fire their destructible projectiles without killing them too quickly are more annoying because they are other mechas with the exact same sprite in other waves that you actually have to speedkill. Unlike the red jets that come from behind where seeing one immediatly tells you what you should do, here you have to memorize which red mechas you have to keep alive for a while and which ones you should quick-kill.

The small red enemies coming from behind to drop destructible projectiles can be a bother given how frail they are. They also show how having the shot type related to floating cycling power-ups forces unfun memorization : if you happen to have a homing missile, expect it to fly straight into it and kill it before it drops its entire load.

It can also be a bit more subtle. Medium Course Stage 3 fucks you over if you quick-kill the big green ships that come from the top or the bottom because half of the spawned green coins end up above or below the playable area and are thus uncollectable. Given how precious points are in this stage, it is even more frustrating to penalized for being too good.


Other shmups I am playing at the moment :

Space Moth DX

I am not especially a huge Mushihimesama fan so the gameplay style and scoring system did not awe me, but they do the job nonetheless. I like that the soul drain mechanics not only make sense in-universe, but are also simple to understand and feel less arbitrary than Mushi's shot switching mechanic, as there is no random bar in a remote corner of the screen with an arbitrary number on it that wants you to play Simon Says with the shot and laser. Of course, having to use the shot to weaken bigger enemies while you would usually use the laser instead for a more focused movement still features this unpleasant arbitrariness, but to a lower extent. Besides, the visual and aural presentation of the mechanic with the enemies switching colors and a jingle playing make it engaging enough.

Speaking of presentation, the 80's retro feel in the menus is very genuine. The collectible bonuses in the stages being miscellanous food or animal icons that recall 80s arcade games' bonuses and/or power ups is a neat touch that I find super charming.

I reached stage 4 and so far the pacing is rather good, except for stage 2 that I think feels a bit too long. Bosses only having one pattern is not a problem to me as they are very quick to be disposed of, however the time bonus mechanic that forces you to wait until the very last second to kill the boss is defintely not my cup of tea. My first gripe is that I have to check the bar at the top of the screen to make sure I don't kill the boss too early but put its health in the correct range, which is distracting. The second gripe is that it is a form of boss milking and an arbitrary extension of the fight duration.

Fire Arrow X

That's the first Team Grybanser Fox game I play and I like the general design idea with a fast pace, lots of explosions and all those other things that make you feel in an arcade game. There is a lot of effort put into the visual presentation, the tech demo-esque sprite rotations in Fire Arrow Plus' menus are amusing, the music is catchy and the general feeling of destroying enemies and collecting medals is enjoyable.

However, I also find it quite difficult to properly play the game for various reasons :
-The default visibility is trash. You can thankfully remove the annoying flashing effect on bullets, and make player shots more transparent. While that helps a lot, it is still not perfect.
-Many enemy attacks are straight up unfair. Enemies that spawn from the bottom near your vertical level and shoot at you point-blank? Check. Mid boss that fires big lasers in your face almost instantly and that should be chain bombed rather than properly dodged? Check. Sea Dragons that can spawn at the very bottom of the screen and kill you on collision? Check. There must be many more I haven't even reached yet.
-The recovery invincibility lasts half a second or so, which is way too low.
-For a game that defines itself as a coffee break shmup, it sure likes to take ages to start a run and register your hiscore. Fire Arrow Plus has not one but two intro screens before each run, and both games in the compilation have an unskippable score rundown and an unskippable display of every single one of the ranking entries at the end of each run. That kills the quick replayability and the 'one more run' feeling that a fast-paced scoring-based game should instill in the player.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:35 pm 


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I've gotten much more consistent at triggering the volcanons in stage 1 of Giga Wing 2, but it seems like I've gotten less consistent at triggering the volcanons in stages 2 and 3. Additionally, there's one spot left on the stage 1 boss where I sometimes but not always trigger a volcanon. Wish I could figure out how to get that more consistent.

Due probably to a combination of not bombing enough (you actually get decent amounts of bombs in this game, and there are no extends, so you'd better use them), and insufficient memorization I still haven't made it all the way to the stage 4 boss in one run even though I have routes for everything up to and including that boss. This is a frustrating place to be at in a shooter.

Anyway, Giga Wing 2 is the shit. Not much more to say.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:16 pm 


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I wish MAME could run Giga Wing 2 without lag, as I don't have a DreamCast. Judging by the videos, it looks great and with a nice soundtrack. I'm stuck with Generations! :?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:39 pm 


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wgogh wrote:
I wish MAME could run Giga Wing 2 without lag, as I don't have a DreamCast. Judging by the videos, it looks great and with a nice soundtrack. I'm stuck with Generations! :?

I don't know how good the emulation is, but you could try using one of the Dreamcast emulators to play it. Demul or nullDC or something (Also not sure what's currently up to date). Personally my computer sucks to much to do this. Demul has pretty high system requirements (including Direct X 11, I think), and nullDC gets slowdown when there starts being a lot of objects on screen. I don't think nullDC is still actively maintained. Demul actually supports save states, as I understand it, and will also run Naomi, and a couple of other similar arcade systems like Atomiswave. I think it's more arcade focused than other DC emulators.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:13 pm 


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I messed around with Giga Wing 2 a little bit in Demul, and it varies from running way too fast in certain parts to randomly slowing down in parts where it's not supposed to. I imagine this will vary from computer to computer too. That sucks because I've been having a lot of fun with the game lately too and it'd be cool if more people could play it properly.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:16 pm 


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demul needs strong enough pc
though there were also different revisions of demul with older/newer mode that differ
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:32 pm 


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Still doggedly bashing my head against QUZ. I'm struggling with small but ruinous mistakes in the last zone, but the 1LC is definitely coming within reach now. I've watched a lot of different runs with different ships and have been applying their tactics to my own attempts, but I'm interested in the experiences of the Darius players here: were there any key realisations that made this run more doable for you?


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:50 pm 


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If you are using a Burst-capable ship that isn't the Assault, the last two stages are basically in the bag when you trigger the counterburst. In stage Z, you have to stay at the very left of the screen near the end of the stage to avoid getting hit by the waves coming from behind, but otherwise it is not too difficult. Before getting to the counterburst, you'll have to abuse the defensive burst and put a diagonal barrier near the middle of the screen. U's early section with the waves coming from both ahead and behind requires a bit of memorization but otherwise isn't too tricky with a bit of experience. The portion in zone Z with the snake and the 5-way enemies is kinda tricky so I try to pre-emptively set-up my burst module and focus on the 5-way enemies.

The majority of GTV's patterns can be made pretty much harmless with the diagonal defensive burst. Most of the time, he throws so much shit at you that it recharges pretty much instantly. Be carfeul with the patterns that have the purple aimed lasers, as they cut through the burst and can let other dangerous bullets pass through your safety net. What I used to do was set up a digonal burst with the module near the top of the screen and make sure to move lower on the screen whenever I hear the laser' build up sound to bait it on the lower part of the screen. I can then move upwards to still stay safe, underneath the diagonal laser.

The second pattern where GTV moves at the bottom of the screen is one of the trickiest but once he is done firing its huge blue laser you can also put a defensive net on the bottom left side of the screen, so that you can be aligned with the boss and hit it with your shot. You'll also have to use the baiting tactics to deal with the purple lasers.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:56 pm 


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qmish wrote:
demul needs strong enough pc

That is whats stoppin me. But anyway, theres a bunch of good shmups out there. GW1 is very good too.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:05 pm 


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Thanks a lot, M.Knight - I appreciate the detailed pointers! Yeah, my experience with GTV has been pretty much exactly as you described. If I throw out the fixed burst from the top of the screen and point it down, then stay near-ish to the burst unit itself and bait the purple lasers away from it, I can deal with most of his phases fairly effortlessly, except for the second one you mentioned. I've been trying to do pretty much what you said, but it's definitely the part where the most mistakes happen (even the notably nastier ones toward the end of his cycle have caused me less trouble). I'll get it eventually!

As for the stages themselves, I'm fine with everything up to the midpoint of Z, where I've actually started ignoring the potential counterburst and continuing to play defensively, but I think I'll go back to trying to get the counter, and following your advice.

Edit: doing better already! 1LC with all counterbursts up to GTV. Everything went terribly from there, but it's a real confidence booster, heh.


Last edited by Klatrymadon on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:07 pm 


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LordHypnos wrote:
It would also be really nice if I could actually consistently get the volcanons in stage 1, because it seems to double to triple my stage 1 score. Unfortunately I can't find any videos of Romi stage 1 anywhere, and at higher difficulties there are a lot more bullets and therefore a lot more medals, so the volcanons seem like they'd be easier to get. I'm guessing this is why Romi isn't as popular for score play, actually. I can get some decent volcanons on the boss, though. I'm very curious to see how my score will turn out once I get the ALL, though that's probably a long way away.


I just found a really good Romi run on Nicovideo, with a score of 72 quadrillion. I think this was linked in the original high score thread but that link got delisted.

I tried to ignore triggering volcanons until I could clear the game somewhat consistently. I found that the score attack mode really helps for learning how to survive the later stages, because the game gets really memorization heavy from stage 4 onwards. Forcing myself to pick predetermined spots to bomb really helped my consistency.

I've found that playing the game for score is pretty silly, but in a fun way. So far I've only really practiced volcanons for stages 1 and 2 but even just learning those skyrocketed my score compared to my first 1CC. In most other shmups stage 1 is just there as a tutorial but in this game increasing your multiplier early on nets big gains even if you just play the rest of the game for survival. It might be harder to pull off with Romi though since she has a less optimal stage order compared to other characters.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:11 pm 


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Klatrymadon wrote:
Edit: doing better already! 1LC with all counterbursts up to GTV. Everything went terribly from there, but it's a real confidence booster, heh.

Nice! Getting the 1LC run is definitely within your grasp now! :)
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:10 pm 


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marus wrote:

I just found a really good Romi run on Nicovideo, with a score of 72 quadrillion. I think this was linked in the original high score thread but that link got delisted.

Thank you so much for this!! :D I actually tried searching nicovideo, but I didn't know how to write Romi in Japanese characters, so it was a futile search.

Quote:
I tried to ignore triggering volcanons until I could clear the game somewhat consistently. I found that the score attack mode really helps for learning how to survive the later stages, because the game gets really memorization heavy from stage 4 onwards. Forcing myself to pick predetermined spots to bomb really helped my consistency.

I have been using score attack for practicing for sure. I just don't have everything in muscle memory yet. I know that I should try to go for the clear first, but it's really hard to resist scoring in Takumi games. lol. It was kind of the same with Mars Matrix. My first clear was already with a multiplier of 2,000,000 or so (My highest now is 3.8 million 8) ), just because I couldn't help myself. Probably made it take a lot longer to clear than it would have otherwise. :P

Quote:
I've found that playing the game for score is pretty silly, but in a fun way. So far I've only really practiced volcanons for stages 1 and 2 but even just learning those skyrocketed my score compared to my first 1CC. In most other shmups stage 1 is just there as a tutorial but in this game increasing your multiplier early on nets big gains even if you just play the rest of the game for survival. It might be harder to pull off with Romi though since she has a less optimal stage order compared to other characters.

Yeah, geometrically increasing scoring systems are pretty wacky this way :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:59 am 


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Forgot I had Ether Vapor Remaster, so I fired it up for the first time in forever. Still fun.

LordHypnos wrote:
wgogh wrote:
I wish MAME could run Giga Wing 2 without lag, as I don't have a DreamCast. Judging by the videos, it looks great and with a nice soundtrack. I'm stuck with Generations! :?

I don't know how good the emulation is, but you could try using one of the Dreamcast emulators to play it. Demul or nullDC or something (Also not sure what's currently up to date). Personally my computer sucks to much to do this. Demul has pretty high system requirements (including Direct X 11, I think), and nullDC gets slowdown when there starts being a lot of objects on screen. I don't think nullDC is still actively maintained. Demul actually supports save states, as I understand it, and will also run Naomi, and a couple of other similar arcade systems like Atomiswave. I think it's more arcade focused than other DC emulators.


nullDC should work on pretty much anything from the last 10 years, although you'll probably need to fiddle a lot with video settings on weaker machines. Played a lot of Ikaruga and Border Down with it though, and a bit of Senko no Ronde with it absolutely AGES ago.
Haven't actually tried GW2 though.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:15 am 


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Demul is more accurate (with few exceptions like Shenmue 1-2) and also covers arcades like Naomi and Hikaru, but yeah NullDC might be ok for needs.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:03 pm 


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Played some Super Aleste for the first time in I don't know how long last night, what an utterly bizarre game it is. Just seems to be a case of throwing everything and anything at the wall weapon wise. Levels are too long, some are far more enjoyable than others, just a bit of a mess really, though still somewhat enjoyable.

I also confirmed that all these years on, R-Type III still bores me senseless.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:49 am 


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After figuring out a decent route for stage 5 of GW2, and doing a little more practice on stage 4 followed by a ton of failed runs that ended on stage 3, I decided to play a little Zero Gunner 2 for a break. Also I played RefleX for the first time in a while the other day, and it still feels kinda bullshit to me, even though I'm more at peace with enemy collisions than I used to be now. That combined with the obscene length (almost an hour, FFS) makes me wonder if I'll ever be able to bring myself to try to learn it. There is a lot of upside in spite of its flaws.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:20 pm 



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Most recent shmups just casually were DaiOuJou and R-Type Leo for the first time ever.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:59 pm 


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I figured out a route for stage 6 of Giga Wing 2. It's a lot harder than stage 5, but it's also super fun. Otherwise just practiced stages 4 and 5 a little to make sure I don't forget them and to get them further ingrained into my memory.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:50 pm 


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Playing a bit of Giga Wing 1

I feel like stage 5 is the only fun stage in the game. But it's really fucking fun.

I honestly can't stand the opening 3 stages. Barely anything of consequence gets shot at you (especially on lava opener with Nun or Stuck).

But I really like that end game.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:07 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Playing a bit of Giga Wing 1

I feel like stage 5 is the only fun stage in the game. But it's really fucking fun.

I honestly can't stand the opening 3 stages. Barely anything of consequence gets shot at you (especially on lava opener with Nun or Stuck).

But I really like that end game.

Maybe that's why I could never get into the first GW game. Never actually made it to stage 4. Also it's too long, and just felt kind of stiff and slow paced. That being said, I might find it less frustrating these days as I've gotten a lot better since then.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:50 pm 


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I played Giga Wing with Ruby and felt her stage order was more enjoyable than Stuck's. The first few stages aren't the greatest by any means, but the scoring system really helps patch up the flaws. The 5th stage on the other hand is absolutely spectacular, it really shows GW at its finest in survival and scoring. The aesthetics are also quite mystical with that delicious colour palette and the propulsive yet smooth soundtrack. It's certainly the one stage where there's no shortage of enemy fire to reflect.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:39 pm 


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^Yeah, I think I'll def try Ruby when I inevitably get back into original GW. Her stage order was too hard for me before (lava stage last, IIRC), but I bet I'll be more able to handle it now. I think I do prefer faster planes in shmups generally.

Was working on figuring out a route for the final stage of Giga Wing 2. It's real freakin' hard. Probably harder than any part of Mars Matrix (Though I suppose the fact that you get bombs in GW2 might make a difference, but then again tap shielding in MM is a lot safer than the reflect force)
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:49 pm 


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Joined: 01 May 2014
Posts: 2107
Location: Brooklyn NY
Nothing of late, but after a week hiatus on the left coast I am itching to get back.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:50 pm 


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Joined: 09 Mar 2014
Posts: 1830
Location: Mars Colony, 2309
Giga Wing 2 -- So after doing full run attempts until I finally improved my score and made it to stage 6, I realize that I still need a lot of practice on stage 4. Also on the first 3 stages -_-; I also can't seem to consistently get the safespot in stage 7 to work, so that sucks. If I made it there with 1-2 extra lives and a few bombs maybe that'd be fine, but I don't think I will be any time soon.

Other stuff I've been playing: Fantasy Zone II System 16 version -- almost got a bad end 1cc of this, but I didn't actually know how to beat the second to last boss, so not quite there yet. Twinkle Star Sprites -- have made it to Mevious a few times in story mode, and to Memory (or wtv the one after Mevious is called) once or twice with nanja monja. This is a pretty sweet game, though I'm sure it's best in versus mode.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:15 am 



Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 10
Deathsmiles. So close to 1cc but not yet!


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:13 am 


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Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 344
Location: Seattle, WA
I did a bunch of Giga Wing 2 stage 2 & 3 practice this weekend. I found out that the "Restart" option doesn't restart the entire run but restarts you from the current stage. I feel really dumb for not figuring that earlier, but I'm glad that option exists as otherwise practicing the later stages would have been a nightmare. Using restarts I managed put together a run where I left stage 3 with a x942,540,242 multiplier, maxed out the multiplier in stage 4, and cleared the game with 62 quadrillion points (just under Rob's score). Of course this was with near-perfect execution; I'm not consistent enough to pull this off in a real yet without a ton of grinding, but it gives me a good benchmark for what kind of scores I can get with my current routes.

Multiplier progression:
Stage 1: x520,000,000 (wasn't recording during this time so I forgot the exact multiplier and score)
Stage 2: x694,457,940
Stage 3: x942,540,242
Stage 4: x999,999,999 (maxed out during the popcorn rush after the midboss space shuttle thing).
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