Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

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mycophobia
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by mycophobia »

M.Knight wrote: -Right after that, you've got two mid-boss looking enemies with a billion HP. If you don't have a powerful autofire, the fight lasts forever. I was so fed up with them that I ended up bombing them just to make them leave my sight but even that wasn't enough.
You're supposed to use bombs, the game gives you a billion of them. Use autofire if it makes the game more fun (I do).
-Actually, the entire first stage (and maybe the whole game?)'s level design is like that : tons of piss-easy enemies that are sent in extremely repetitive and boring waves and all of a sudden you've got one enemy that is much beefier, can move pretty low on the screen to point blank you, and who spawns with a few pals of his to make you panic and mess up. And then back to boring enemy waves. There is zero logical progression with increasing difficulty like in a well designed shmup. Nothing here makes sense. Besides, some of the midbosses have attacks with two long shots that look like you can get between them but it's impossible given your gigantic hitbox.
It makes perfect sense. The difficulty comes in waves. there's the chill parts and then there's the stressful parts. It's classic Toaplan-style pacing, a style that was in effect in all their games from Tiger-Heli onward. You may not like it, which is fine, but it's not nonsensical.

also the enemy patterns get way hairier in later stages, don't judge the difficulty by the first stage alone.
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M.Knight
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by M.Knight »

I have no issues with using an autofire here, I simply hadn't it set up when I tried it. Some games require tapping and holding a same button for different purposes so I only use the autofire once I know if there's something like that in the game.

As I said, I used bombs against those big enemies. However, not only their range is rather limited, the enemies are also able to survive one of them and shrug it off as if it was nothing. Terrible first impression for a weapon that's supposed to be offensive rather that defensive. Even CAVE bombs are more powerful.

What bothers me with the zig-zagging difficulty levels is how huge the gap between the easy and the hard parts is, as well as how sleep-inducing the easy parts are. Having some harder moments in the game is fine as you want some of the waves to be more memorable and challenging while others are mostly there to keep the player alert and occupied until the next big enemy, but in Toaplan's case, they just took it too far. The chill waves do not have any dynamism in them that makes defeating them enjoyable even if it is easy. I see no way to defend that first wave with a single harmless enemy spawning over and over again. It's pure padding that's not fun at all and I wouldn't be surprised if there's more of it peppered throughout the game. And the hard waves take you by surprise once you are about to fall asleep, which feels cheap and frustrating rather than engaging and exciting.

I think it's absurd because an arcade game shouldn't seek out to make their player fall asleep or bore him on purpose IMO.

Maybe the rest of the game has a better balanced difficulty, maybe I could like it a bit more if I gave it enough tries to reach something like the 3rd stage, but why would I bother with this terribly designed first stage ever again? It is the one I'll have to play the most, so why would I inflict something like this upon myself? I don't hate myself that much.
Also, that first stage lasts 5 minutes. That's incredibly long. In that same timeframe, I could just fire up Dangun Feveron, play two entire stages with frantic pacing and fun waves not designed to be boring on purpose and be fighting the second boss, whereas in Tatsujin's case, half of that time was wasted unsuccessfully waiting for a remotely aggressive enemy to appear.
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Shepardus
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Shepardus »

M.Knight wrote:In that same timeframe, I could just fire up Dangun Feveron, play two entire stages with frantic pacing and fun waves not designed to be boring on purpose and be fighting the second boss
That's actually why I don't play Dangun much anymore, it's so breakneck-paced 100% of the time that I'm tired of it by the time I've reached the third stage. I'd still take it over Tatsujin though, for some reason I've never been able to get into the flow with that game like I have with (the first 2-3 stages of) Tatsujin Ou.
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mycophobia
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by mycophobia »

tatsujin's first stage is a perfect introduction: simple but visually pleasing zako fights and miniboss fights that only seem tough but become easy when you know their patterns and can go into them with a plan. It gently leads you into the vicious zako patterns and minibosses that absolutely require memorization the game has to offer later. Not to mention the great music. I've logged almost 100 hours into the game so far and I still love playing the first stage.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by M.Knight »

I have played Dangun Feveron for years, have only reached the fifth stage a handful of times and never 1CCed' it but am always enjoying the fast-paced action. But yeah, the very fast pace being a turn-off is totally understandable. I like how stimulating and exhausting the game can be even if I don't make that much progress in it, but it may be seen as too demanding and I can see why.

In any case, there still is a general consistency in the pacing and the intensity that's coherent and creates a fun but admittedly very demanding flow, which is something I can't find in Tatsujin at all. I am also the kind of player who prefers fast-paced stuff in general and is turned off by slow first stages so that's also why I can't click with Tatsujin at all.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by trap15 »

Tatsujin's first stage is easily one of the worst STG stages of all time in my opinion, for all the reasons M.Knight says. There is no other Toaplan game that is so immediately off-putting with its stage design. You cannot say this is the same style as Hishouzame or even Kyuukyoku Tiger, those games give you a feel of progression and enemy patterns that are at least more interesting and less severely copy-pasted.

I do feel like Tatsujin gets slightly better after stage 1, but I don't care because I never in my life want to play that first stage ever again.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by mycophobia »

psssh whateva :P
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by OmKol »

DOJ WL, day 48. Now it gets decent - I've got more 2-5 no misses for yesterday and day, much better routes, much more consistency.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by KaizaCorp »

Getting my miyamotoes wet in Battle Garegga after listening to Eaglet and Plasmo on the Electric Underground podcast! Slowly adjusting to the bullets after being spoiled with bright colourful ones in Mushihimesama/Crimzon Clover but enjoying picking up medals.

Also banging my head against Strikers 1945 partly on mame and partly on Switch (to test out my PS3/PS4 to Switch Brook converter). Instead of doing a bunch of runs I should probably setup some save states of the various levels at higher rank, as I typically die on 1-3 or 1-4.

I tried streaming some Cambria Sword but OBS had difficulty capturing the audio. Playing this one as my relaxing shmup after diminishing returns on the other two. Can't wait to show my friend who is an archaeology major this game, fortunately he is also into shmups.

Edit: For reference, got the audio to capture after setting Cambria Sword to run in compatibility mode for Windows 7 and as admin, and running OBS as admin to then capture the video.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Kiken »

When my Neo-CD decides to actually boot up correctly, I've been playing ASO II/Alpha Mission 2. Stage 4 is my wall right now, although I'm making some progress with how to handle the boss. Stages 1 and 2 are straight-forward enough. Stage 3's boss is just hellishly obnoxious with all of its patterns (I have to rely heavily on Nuke or Blackhole to take out the maze ball patterns otherwise I just get trapped).

Definitely looking to pick up the cart sometime in the near future.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Kiken »

Well, stage 4 is no longer a wall. Finally got to see stage 5 for the first time (aside from the single screen shot of the level on the back of the case).
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Kanada »

Deathsmiles
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Stevens »

Started R Type III a few days ago.

Using Cyclone Force. The blue shotgun is pretty boss, red is decent too but the "bullets" look like a fucking place holder. A red triangle, that was the best you could do?

First three stages down to no miss, working on the fourth.

EDIT - OK 4th stage. To the uninitiated you are filled with bullshit, but I am starting to come to grips with you.

Thank goodness for save states:D
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Stevens »

No missed to the backwards section of stage four.

Went downhill quick though - died on the way out and I haven't worked out a naked escape from that section just yet.

Boss isn't too bad though, and stage five is way easier than four.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BIL »

Stage 4 is justifiably infamous, haha. As is stage 1, for entirely different reasons (so slow). R-Type III would really benefit from a little fine-tuning... that said, once st4 is memorised it at least doesn't waste time, and you can somewhat get around st1 by starting from Loop 2 using the level select. At least I remember being able to do that. Not ideal but better than nothing.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Stevens »

Yeah level one is boring as fuck :D
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by FRO »

BIL wrote:Stage 4 is justifiably infamous, haha. As is stage 1, for entirely different reasons (so slow). R-Type III would really benefit from a little fine-tuning... that said, once st4 is memorised it at least doesn't waste time, and you can somewhat get around st1 by starting from Loop 2 using the level select. At least I remember being able to do that. Not ideal but better than nothing.
Seems like Stage 4 being brutal is a common theme in R-Type games, or at least some of them.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Stevens »

I've had R Type on the SMS since I was 10 or so. Never 1 CC'd it but I was able to continue through to the end once.

Stage four was awful back then. And your reward if I remember correctly was that red ship that split in three who made my life miserable through RNG.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by BIL »

I've actually been playing that port for the first time, haha. Feels bizarrely exotic, being the only R-Type on Sega hardware, and ported by fellow STG luminaries Compile at that. Lovable port. I admire how rather than going for a reinterpretation ala Konami's FC Gradiuses, they just went balls to the wall full conversion. Nothing wrong with "reimagined" home translations, of course (plenty of outright classics there), but taking on cutting-edge arcade hardware always gets my respect!

I was moved when the credits segued into the second loop/BONUS GAME, after such an already herculean effort. Image Meanwhile the egregiously misnamed, one-loop "R-Type Complete" (PCE-CD) can't be arsed. :lol: Suddenly stage 3's Huge Battleship is no joke, fucker will steamroll you if not handled promptly.

Biggest drawback is easily the distracting sprite breakup, but it's surprisingly adjustable to and seems good about prioritising bullets (or maybe that's just me, and memories of Gun-Nac's config.sys menu). Just don't double-kill st5's centipedes, you'll witness sprite breakup of the gods in a screenfull of lethal extra-chunky debris. :shock:
Stevens wrote:Stage four was awful back then. And your reward if I remember correctly was that red ship that split in three who made my life miserable through RNG.
I find those guys are best dealt with by firing the Force straight through em, then dragging it back along their cores. Force DGAF if you're on target, it'll rub all over the fuckers racking up hits and soon enough *BOOM* one less thing to worry about. Frisky movement complicates things ofc!
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by copy-paster »

Spending some time with playing Macross II, extremely high quality shmup by NMK and I think it outshines TD2 imo.

Expert course literally the best part in the game, packed with excellent music to bang on.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Squire Grooktook »

After 3 days of driving myself to insanity with gamedev, popped in Mushihimesama for some quick and dirty fun.

I don't care about the arthropod waifu anthology off of Original Mode (manic for life yo), and I found Mushi 1's original relatively disappointing in that respect. No scoring, patterns that mostly amount to "wait for the right moment to micro-tap" etc.

Gave 1.5 a more in depth try. I never really agreed with the "point blanking gives you score all the time" system because it encourages you to (theoretically) never leave the top of the screen on an optimal run. But that aside, I was pleasantly surprised by how comparatively manic it ended up feeling. Boss patterns seem to have enough subtle tweaks to make the movement more complex and exciting, while keeping the sense of freedom inherent in sparse bullet based patterns. Point blanking every now and then when comfortable and pushing the rank also adds a fair amount of thrill.

Not exactly something I'd take to a desert island, but a fun little treat with a much better second impression.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by OmKol »

DOJ WL, day 54. I had to recover after vacation. Now I've got my 2-5 no miss per day back so it's time to do even better.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Shepardus »

Mostly Detana!! TwinBee and Battlantis recently. I don't have any real goals with these games (I've gotten 1-ALLs in both, 2-ALLs seem unrealistic at the moment, and there isn't much scoring for me to improve besides getting further in the games), but I simply enjoy playing them and that's reason enough for me. I think both are better games than people here, including myself from a year ago, have given them credit for.

Also some Tatsujin Ou because I apparently need something to balance out that enjoyment. Those checkpoints, man.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by wgogh »

Shikigami no Shiro EX
That is the update version of the first game on the series. Its a lot harder than Shikigami no Shiro II and the sprites are a little bizarre. From the very first stage, youre fighting ballerina dolls and giant teddy bears. Some magazines from Japan said that the recovery in later stages seem impossible in this game, and I have to agree that this might be true in some specific locations. The Shikigami series might be on the easy side of shmups, but not this particular game, it seems.. Also, I really wish I could play with another character (the witch and the wolfman looks cool to play with), but I can only survive with Kohtaro.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Kollision »

wgogh wrote:The Shikigami series might be on the easy side of shmups,
Shikigami series in the "easy side of shmups"? :lol:

I think they're hard as hell, but that's just me I guess
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by KaizaCorp »

Still on the Strikers 1945 grind when I can get a chance to play. Stage 1-5 is my wall now that I've gotten the hang of the first 4 at different ranks. Happy to finally make it to the non-random stages in a Psikyo game for once!
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by M.Knight »

The first Shikigami no Shiro is brutal, man. I can understand why the next two can be seen as easier if you play it safe, but the original is probably the hardest even from a plain survival perspective.

While some characters have always been easier to use than others, here it seems that Kohtaro Kuga is the basis upon which the game's difficulty curve was implemented. You have Hyuuga which is harder to use, and every single other character makes the game a lot more difficult as soon as you try to score because their shikigami ranges are much lower/much trickier and their focused movement speed is extremely low. I can imagine some characters such as Kim being okay for survival but creating all those coins that aren't autocollected and thus can't all be gotten before they fall feels wrong.

I think another reason why the game is so difficult is the low amount of extends, even if you score. With Kuga at least, I think you get one early on in Stage 2 but you usually won't need it so it becomes pointless due to the life cap. The next one would happen near Stage 4, which is very far for a first extend. The weird thing is, the last boss can give you lots of points, so it's not rare to get one or more extends during its last phase, but good luck reaching it in the first place. If we disregard the first phase and its boring milking, it's a really cool fight though. The series has always ben pretty good about the atmosphere and tension in its final battles I think.

If that can help, I have a replay of an old clear of mine uploaded here and there's another 1CC replay with a higher score here with the player doing the aforementioned boss 5-1 milking (but the video is blurry as shit).
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by wgogh »

M.Knight wrote:The first Shikigami no Shiro is brutal, man. I can understand why the next two can be seen as easier if you play it safe, but the original is probably the hardest even from a plain survival perspective.
I have heard more than once that the series is easy, so I figured they should be talking abou Shikigami II or III. I know that Shikigami II is certainly easier, and haven't play III enough to say anything about. Also, the first stages are pretty easy, so I guess one can be mistaken if doesent play the game until the end. But yeah, the original dont feel easy for me. Currently, I don't get much far from stage 4-1. As for the first extend, you can get on stage 2, but only with decent scoring. I guess it's possible to kill oneself before the extend to gain a extra bomb but I haven't bothered to do that.
I appreciate a good replay, thank you, M.Knight!
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wgogh wrote:The Shikigami series might be on the easy side of shmups,
Shikigami series in the "easy side of shmups"? :lol:

I think they're hard as hell, but that's just me I guess
As I said, Kollision, I don't agree as well. I could be mistaken, but did you wrote something about the series in a blog or something? I'm just remembering..
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by Kollision »

Well, I managed to beat Shiki 1 (PS2) and 2 (DC) a while back, and my recollection is that they might not be the hardest things out there, but not easy either. I do agree with M.Knight though, the first one is the toughest.
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Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

Post by wgogh »

Yeah, but it sucks that the Playstation 2 version of Shikigami 1 is pretty bad, even the japanese release.
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