Psikyo > Cave

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:42 pm

I think Psikyo games have really bad style, with repeating backgrounds, tasteless design and crappy (although catchy) music, compared to what cave does. But let's say that's a matter of taste.

What's not a matter of taste, though, is that cave games definitely require a lot more skill to play well than Psikyo games. You survive a lot easier with memorization in Psikyo, and you're not required to be able to read crazy patterns like in Cave games. In Psikyo, it's more like memorization + precision movements. Cave is memorization + precision + reading, each brought to the next level, with memorization helping scoring more than helping survival. It's ideal. Because memorization is not exactly a skill.

so well imo :
Style : Cave >> Psikyo
Gameplay : Cave >> Psikyo

JoshF wrote:I'd say something, but it might raise my rank.

Best Post Of The Month --a

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:18 am

PROMETHEUS wrote:In Psikyo, it's more like memorization + precision movements. Cave is memorization + precision + reading, each brought to the next level,

Extreme. I'm not sure how to memorize a Gunbird 2 ALL. Since this is monkey work, please advise.

"Reading". There is no skill required exclusively to Cave games. In all modern arcade shooters you figure out what to do (memorize enemy placements, variables, optimal scoring techniques, etc.) and execute it. It's all capable of being memorized in the same way, by like playing it multiple times.

Retaining information/figuring out what info to retain is no less a skill than moving a stick or d-pad.

Why.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:21 am

Cave games have far much more room to improvise and get funky, namely due to those slow bullets which have been mentioned. Psikyo games seem like straight memorization to me. At least in the latter stages.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:29 am

To summarize thread: People think they're not being cheated in Cave games, because they never get to Doom or Hibachi.

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:30 am

Trouble is brewing...

For the record though, cave

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:31 am

Psikyo shooters is what separates the men from the nerds.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:00 am

Cave > Psikyo > Raizing for me as well. Cave games are just so much more fun. Though I do love Zero Gunner 2 and Gunbird 2. Sengoku Blade is also one of the few horis I like, but I just can't find myself trying to 1cc any of them. They are games I just throw in and go at for a few credits.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:08 am

Rob wrote:To summarize thread: People think they're not being cheated in Cave games, because they never get to Doom or Hibachi.

They do?

Psikyo shooters is what separates the men from the nerds.

No, the ability to realize we are talking about video games does that.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:13 am

Cave has too much bullets on screen.

Raizing was perfect on Battle Garegga, but Armed Police Batrider changed too many things and it went downhill after that.

Psikyo has the perfect balance of gameplay and bullet patterns.

I became a Psikyo fanboy from playing Aero Fighters 2 in the arcades when I was five.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:23 am

Fighter17 wrote: I became a Psikyo fanboy from playing Aero Fighters 2 in the arcades when I was five.

But that's not a Psikyo game.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:29 am

Rob wrote:"Reading". There is no skill required exclusively to Cave games. In all modern arcade shooters you figure out what to do (memorize enemy placements, variables, optimal scoring techniques, etc.) and execute it. It's all capable of being memorized in the same way, by like playing it multiple times.

Retaining information/figuring out what info to retain is no less a skill than moving a stick or d-pad.

I disagree. While it does take some knowledge and skill to efficiently retain information (like memorizing your actions in GB2, or a chain in DDP, which by the way probably takes a lot more "memorizing skills" ;p), it's nothing compared to being able to improvise in real time to dodge a complex, Cave-like bullet pattern.

GaijinPunch wrote:Cave games have far much more room to improvise and get funky, namely due to those slow bullets which have been mentioned. Psikyo games seem like straight memorization to me. At least in the latter stages.

This is exactly how i feel about it. And to me, this "improvise and get funky" thing is what's really good about shmups (in addition to general art and design quality). It's where the skill and the fun are at.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:39 am

Rob wrote:
Fighter17 wrote: I became a Psikyo fanboy from playing Aero Fighters 2 in the arcades when I was five.
But that's not a Psikyo game.

Psikyo was founed by former Video System people (the same people who did the Aero Fighters shooters).

Play any Aero Fighters game and then a Strikers game.

You'll see:

Same bullet sprites (with slightly different colors)
Similar bullet patterns.
Short Stages.
A lot of fast moving bullets (seen in a lot of Psikyo shmups).
Similar explosions (from the same artist).

Major rule about fanboys, you can't change them.

Bloodreign · Post by **Bloodreign** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:42 am

All I like from Psikyo is the Strikers games, Cave, haven't found anything to make me hate them yet.

Raizing is all about the medals, never can catch all the falling ones.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:55 am

it's nothing compared to being able to improvise in real time to dodge a complex, Cave-like bullet pattern.

I change my vote to Psikyo.

Cave shooters: just slow enough to where people think they've got crazy twitch dodging skills. Seriously, I think you're playing the wrong shooters. How many ways can you improvise your way through the exact same pattern?

Psikyo was founed by former Video System people

1st (AF) game only.

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:59 am

Shut up Fighter.
Psikyo is not Video Systems. That's like saying Castlevania IV is great because Treasure 'made' it.

Anyways, only Raizing games I've played are Garegga, which is crazysexy, Soukyugurentai, which is crazybad, and Kingdom Grand Prix, which is simply crazy.
Armed Police Batrider, helluva name that one. I'd like to try it out, too.

Also, everyone shut up about memorization, every shooter requires it so don't get all geeky anal/Recap on it.

seattlexc · Post by **seattlexc** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:05 am

I'm going with

Cave > Toaplan > Psikyo

I have yet to get into a Raizing game, but I will one of these days.

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:08 am

I like Gunbird2 more then any Cave game,but I stll love the Cave games too,I haven't tried one I didn't like(on emulator). Oh and guess what Cave still makes games so they get my vote.

EDIT: Nevermind the pole doesnt really work for someone with my frame of mind.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:10 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
Rob wrote:To summarize thread: People think they're not being cheated in Cave games, because they never get to Doom or Hibachi.
They do?

Yeah, if they could there would be no distinction between Psikyo's memorization and Cave's. The difficulty never escalates to the point of needing to practice a boss 100s of times, before dumping all of their lives on 5 minute stages and improvising moderately difficult bosses. They never reach the really difficult stuff, while they might in a Psikyo game since they're 10 minutes long.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:10 am

shinsage wrote:Shut up Fighter.
Psikyo is not Video Systems. That's like saying Castlevania IV is great because Treasure 'made' it.

The same people who made the Aero Fighters series later created all those Psikyo shmups.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:13 am

I was just joking with you.

And Psikyo has enough mediocre games to saddle them with the Aero Fighters series.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:15 am

Rob wrote:I was just joking with you.

And Psikyo has enough mediocre games to saddle them with the Aero Fighters series.

Then why Psikyo made money with those shooters in the 90s if they are mostly similar?

Challenge people!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:23 am

If they didn't put out so many similar, mediocre or just plain bad games they might still be around.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:24 am

e difficulty never escalates to the point of needing to practice a boss 100s of times, before dumping all of their lives on 5 minute stages and improvising moderately difficult bosses.

This is the gem of Cave games. Play for survivial, and the games (save Ketsui & DOJ) are only moderately difficult. Try to get a high score, and suddenly you need to stock up on controllers.

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:27 am

Fighter17 wrote:
shinsage wrote:Shut up Fighter.
Psikyo is not Video Systems. That's like saying Castlevania IV is great because Treasure 'made' it.
The same people who made the Aero Fighters series later created all those Psikyo shmups.

Can you back this up, or are you just saying that because of the blatant similarities between the 1945 and AF series?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:30 am

shinsage wrote: Can you back this up, or are you just saying that because of the blatant similarities between the 1945 and AF series?

Shin Nakamura.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:44 am

I'm going with cave simply because Psikyo games infuriate me like no other. It's almost surreal to like a game yet hate it with just as much passion.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:47 am

Raizing & Cave >>>>>>>> Psikyo.

shinsage wrote:
Rob wrote:
Psikyo ... games ... have ... diverse levels.

What?
They just feel more creative.

What have you been smoking?
You know that shit is bad for you, right?
Can I get some of that?

BulletMagnet wrote:
Everybody loves Cave
There's a sizeable faction on here who probably want a word with you on that.

Don't even start.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:58 am

Psikyo makes me /wrist

roker · Post by **roker** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:26 am

funniest thread ever

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:41 am

Then why Psikyo made money with those shooters in the 90s if they are mostly similar?

Marion, Miko, Junis and Yuan Nang and the inevitable Gamest manga anthologies containing them.

shmups.system11.org

Psikyo > Cave

CHOOSE ze best