Stick or pad

[EOJ]

Actually, Dual Shocks that come packaged with the PS2 are shoddy quality and do that tap miss as described. However, if you buy a Dual Shock separate (like the colors), the D-Pad quality is much higher and nearly perfect. 'Better than 1st gen and Dual Shock 1 d-pads in my opinion.

Well, mine was a Japanese dual shock (ceramic white), which came with a brand new system I bought. It worked perfectly for about a year of heavy play, then some of the directionals started to not work properly all the time, and now it's totally useless. I think they're quite good pads if bought new, but they don't have a long life.

[iatneH]

Wow, did this thread grow 3 pages since I checked this morning? With growth like that I'd think a new Cave game was announced or something.

[Pirate1019]

I am saying that sticks offer much more accuracy, and several others in this thread support this view, including almost all of the Mushihime-sama Maniac highest scorers and all of Japan.

If enough people claim the Earth is flat, does that make it true?

[Arvandor]

It's definitely down to preference. I got a Hori Real Arcade Pro, mainly for use with fighting games like the Guilty Gear XX series and whatnot, but figured I'd give shooters a try as well. That didn't last long at all, the dead space in the center made it absolutely impossible for me to twitch small distances with any real precision. I'm sure with practice I could be just as good either way, but that's the thing. I'd still be just as good, either way... So why waste my time getting used to an arcade stick to do what I already can with a pad?

The only reason I even got one for Guilty Gear was in case I ever ended up playing in a tournament or event out of state where all they had was an arcade cabinet. Otherwise, pad works just as well (and in fact, for directional movements, pad works better, but I LOOOOOOVVVE the 4-5 fingers for different buttons over the one thumb and one index finger for all the pad buttons). I used to wonder why people always found Slayer's backdash cancel so difficult. I found out after I got accustomed to a stick and still couldn't do it as easily as I could on the pad =P

So, generally speaking, stick is better for button layout and spamming (no carpel tunnel yay!), and pad is better for movement (like dodging in a shmup). However, enough experience with eithre can negate the flaws completely, and... Well, I don't even understand why people are arguing it really =P

[cigsthecat]

I am saying that sticks offer much more accuracy, and several others in this thread support this view, including almost all of the Mushihime-sama Maniac highest scorers and all of Japan.

If enough people claim the Earth is flat, does that make it true?

It depends. Do they play CAVE games?

[icycalm]

Personal preference, motherfucker, do you know it?

No, but I know your mother, fucker.

[icycalm]

And taking a poll won't tell us anything useful.

The important thing is what good players use, not the average Joe who doesn't have a clue what he is doing. I know a ton of people who play shmups with keyboards, for example.

Of course none of them get very far in anything, but they sure as hell are enjoying themselves. And the two or three people who I've introduced to sticks have all managed to get past spots which they had thought impossibe before, and in so doing ended up enjoying themselves even more.

So that's where I base my belief that sticks are more suitable for shooters: personal experience, statistics and discussions with other players.

[Ghegs]

I know a ton of people who play shmups with keyboards, for example.

Of course none of them get very far in anything, but they sure as hell are enjoying themselves. And the two or three people who I've introduced to sticks have all managed to get past spots which they had thought impossibe before, and in so doing ended up enjoying themselves even more.

Had you introduced them to pads instead the results would've been similar, I'd say.

So that's where I base my belief that sticks are more suitable for shooters: personal experience, statistics and discussions with other players.

So the fact that there are players who play shmups at a high level with pads, some of whom have posted in this very thread, doesn't factor in to your statistics or discussions at all?

Oh right, I forgot - it's all just an exception to this almighty rule you've come up with. Convenient.

[icycalm]

I know a ton of people who play shmups with keyboards, for example.

Of course none of them get very far in anything, but they sure as hell are enjoying themselves. And the two or three people who I've introduced to sticks have all managed to get past spots which they had thought impossibe before, and in so doing ended up enjoying themselves even more.

Had you introduced them to pads instead the results would've been similar, I'd say.

Well, the thing is, as with iatneH's experience, I've weaned people off pads as well and got them using sticks, and they've always improved their skills and are never going back. And I might add, I've never met anyone who went the other way around: i.e. playing with arcade sticks for a long time and then one day deciding to switch to pads for good.

So that's where I base my belief that sticks are more suitable for shooters: personal experience, statistics and discussions with other players.

So the fact that there are players who play shmups at a high level with pads, some of whom have posted in this very thread, doesn't factor in to your statistics or discussions at all?

It will factor into the statistics. That's why I say 7 or 8 out of 10 good Western players, instead of 10 out of 10.

Oh right, I forgot - it's all just an exception to this almighty rule you've come up with. Convenient.

Ghegs, sarcasm is all well and good when you are shit-talking with friends -- people you know very well, who you are certain won't take offence -- but when you are engaged in discussion with virtual strangers it's best to avoid it. Trust me on this.

[msm]

Actually, Dual Shocks that come packaged with the PS2 are shoddy quality and do that tap miss as described. However, if you buy a Dual Shock separate (like the colors), the D-Pad quality is much higher and nearly perfect. 'Better than 1st gen and Dual Shock 1 d-pads in my opinion.

Well, mine was a Japanese dual shock (ceramic white), which came with a brand new system I bought. It worked perfectly for about a year of heavy play, then some of the directionals started to not work properly all the time, and now it's totally useless. I think they're quite good pads if bought new, but they don't have a long life.

that's interesting about the dual shock pads, all mine came with ps2's (all of which are pants), one of which was a ceramic white japanese one, but that was second hand - so i might buy a new one just to see what it's like

[Ghegs]

Oh right, I forgot - it's all just an exception to this almighty rule you've come up with. Convenient.

Ghegs, sarcasm is all well and good when you are shit-talking with friends -- people you know very well, who you are certain won't take offence -- but when you are engaged in discussion with virtual strangers it's best to avoid it. Trust me on this.

But that's the rule you've brought out since your very first post in this thread.

I think you have it the other way around. An exception doesn't prove that the rule is wrong -- it proves that it's correct. Perhaps SnapDragon should go into the Guiness Book of Records, along with all the other exceptions.

With sarcasm included, I might note.

But it's obvious this thread has reached a point where it can't go any further. We disagree on this and that's that. Let's call it a day.

[Ceph]

A d-pad's lever is much shorter than a stick's, so shouldn't you be able to react faster with a pad? Sounds like a simple matter of physics to me.

[icycalm]

But it's obvious this thread has reached a point where it can't go any further. We disagree on this and that's that. Let's call it a day.

Well, yeah man, of course we disagree. If we didn't then what would be the point of this thread?

But that's no reason to call it a day.

Myself I've pretty much said all I had to say, and perhaps the same applies to you, but there are others who are chiming in with their opinions, some of which I at least find interesting.

Besides, by reading the opinions of others we might come up with new ideas ourselves. The thread will eventually die a natural death when all that can be said has been said.


Also:

I think you have it the other way around. An exception doesn't prove that the rule is wrong -- it proves that it's correct. Perhaps SnapDragon should go into the Guiness Book of Records, along with all the other exceptions.

With sarcasm included, I might note.

I did not intend for that post to have even the slightest hint of sarcasm. In any case I apologize if it offended you in any way.

[j^aws]

A d-pad's lever is much shorter than a stick's, so shouldn't you be able to react faster with a pad? Sounds like a simple matter of physics to me.

It's a matter of forces involved. Shorter distances don't necessarily mean faster times.

For a D-pad, smaller forces are generated from the muscles in your thumb. Whilst for a stick, it can be generated from just a finger/ thumb, palm/ wrist to your entire arm. And in arcades, even your entire 'body' sometimes!

[Ghegs]

Well, yeah man, of course we disagree. If we didn't then what would be the point of this thread?

But that's no reason to call it a day.

Myself I've pretty much said all I had to say, and perhaps the same applies to you, but there are others who are chiming in with their opinions, some of which I at least find interesting.

I didn't mean that we'd lock the thread or anything, just that we've danced our dance all the way through and continuing it unchanged seems a bit pointless. And yeah, I've pretty much said all I can on the topic as well.

In any case I apologize if it offended you in any way.

No offense was taken and none was meant on my part either.

[Rob]

Personal preference, motherfucker, do you know it?

No, but I know your mother, fucker.

Arznei and Icycalm, folks.

Ghegs, sarcasm is all well and good when you are shit-talking with friends -- people you know very well, who you are certain won't take offence -- but when you are engaged in discussion with virtual strangers it's best to avoid it. Trust me on this.

Chill out already. Your hyper-sensitive toughguy schtick is old.


The d-pad is perfectly "pixel-perfect" for me. However, it's true I don't play Mushihimesama Maniac Mode.

[icycalm]

Chill out already. Your hyper-sensitive toughguy schtick is old.

It's not a "schtick", it's who I am. If you have a problem accepting that I suggest you stop reading my posts.

[Rob]

I would suggest again to chill out or not require of others what you can't accommodate yourself (tact).

d-pads >>

[Veracity]

An exception doesn't prove that the rule is wrong -- it proves that it's correct.

I don't think this means what you seem to want it to - etymology nerdism. Language being what it is, mind, if enough people think that's what it means, so be it.

Regarding the actual topic, shouldn't this be added to the flame-bait list along RSG-overrated et al? It always ends up a holy war in shooter or fighting game contexts. I wish someone would attempt this hypothetical proper study of it, though I'm not sure who'd put up the funding. Nintendo? They seem fixated on controllers, of late.

Stick control may well be more precise, but just repeatedly insisting it's so, as people usually do in this context, won't convince anyone. As has already been restated ad nauseam, a correlation between known high-scoring players and stick use won't cut it, either, since correlation doesn't equate to cause. Since either device is just eight digital switches, you'd need to identify physical reasons to claim objective superiority. For that matter, I'm not sure why a decent keyboard should be necessarily inferior, though it's usually assumed to be so - the fact keyboard control tends to require chords for diagonals is probably an issue there, though. How about most pad configurations relying on thumb control, while sticks are operated with your whole hand? Or the fact pretty much any decent stick will be mounted on a stable, flat surface at a constant angle?

Another passing thought: does anyone even make pads that are comparable, component-wise, to high-end arcade sticks (I don't know, I've never looked)? A cheapo stick with dead zone issues, hit-or-miss diagonals and so on is obviously going to be horrible compared to even a moderately decent pad; are pads just under-represented at the expensive end of the market?

[j^aws]

Since the OP mentioned RSG, I also forgot to metion another reason why I prefer the Saturn analogue 3D pad over the standard Saturn pad... the 'uniform' 6-buttons.

I usually grip the pad with my left hand, rest the pad on my lap... use L-trigger for the Radiant Sword and buttons A, Y, Z (which my fingers rest naturally on) for the other weapons/ combinations.

At the end of the day, "comfort" is very personal, though very significant...

[Pirate1019]

Since the OP mentioned RSG, I also forgot to metion another reason why I prefer the Saturn analogue 3D pad over the standard Saturn pad... the 'uniform' 6-buttons.

I usually grip the pad with my left hand, rest the pad on my lap... use L-trigger for the Radiant Sword and buttons A, Y, Z (which my fingers rest naturally on) for the other weapons/ combinations.

At the end of the day, "comfort" is very personal, though very significant...

I never understood how people could naturally have a grip like that on a controller. It seems counter-intuitive to me. For instance, take the old monster Xbox controllers. Apprantly they were supposed to be gripped in such a fashion that your pinky fingers worked the triggers, you had two fingers to work the face buttons and a finger to work the Right stick all at the same time. Your left hand was in a similar position so you can use the D-pad and the Stick simultaneously. I tried simply holding the controller like this and I couldn't stand it. I go with simply gripping the controller (any controller, not just the Xbox one) and using my right thumb for all of the face buttons. I may pull my index finger up away from the shoulder/trigger buttons if I need to hold to buttons down that aren't near each other (like X and Triangle on a PS2 controller). It may seems simplistic, but I learn how to move my thumb pretty fast . Maybe I play like this also because I can tap buttons much faster with my thumb then I can with any of my other fingers.

[DJ Incompetent]

the rule

change to:

the theory

fixed

Regarding the actual topic, shouldn't this be added to the flame-bait list along RSG-overrated et al? It always ends up a holy war in shooter or fighting game contexts.

..well...the holy war ended without casualties or a thread lock. And most the leads in-discussion ended the argument with politeness.

No foul

I wish someone would attempt this hypothetical proper study of it, though I'm not sure who'd put up the funding. Nintendo? They seem fixated on controllers, of late.

haha, well, everybody with a Wii could write in a question to the Everybody Votes Channel asking if they prefer pad or stick for skill-based play (or just say STGs). But, obviously even if that question made the worldwide polls, it wouldn't come with its own clusterfuck of variables leading to results rejection......the leading one being a skill-based test without long-term environmental controls is not being used in this case.

Actually, Dual Shocks that come packaged with the PS2 are shoddy quality and do that tap miss as described. However, if you buy a Dual Shock separate (like the colors), the D-Pad quality is much higher and nearly perfect. 'Better than 1st gen and Dual Shock 1 d-pads in my opinion.

Well, mine was a Japanese dual shock (ceramic white), which came with a brand new system I bought. It worked perfectly for about a year of heavy play, then some of the directionals started to not work properly all the time, and now it's totally useless. I think they're quite good pads if bought new, but they don't have a long life.

Well, given the pad fell apart in a different way, it still showed that controllers pre-packaged with the system ended up with [inevitably] junk d-pads. If you haven't bought a dual shock 2 separate (the yellow packaging ones), try it if the prices ever drop. I dunno if controllers for the J-PS2 market would have different quality control though. That is a variable. My data is from the US-PS2 market.

[cigsthecat]

Chill out already. Your hyper-sensitive toughguy schtick is old.

It's not a "schtick", it's who I am. If you have a problem accepting that I suggest you stop reading my posts.

Or you could just hose off the Recap before you come over here. It's simply common courtesy.

[icycalm]

the rule

change to:

the theory

fixed

Yes of course, theory is a better word for it.

I would suggest again to chill out or not require of others what you can't accommodate yourself (tact).

I am about as chilled out as I could be without going into a coma.

As for tact, I've said that before, but I try to behave as best I can on message boards. It's not always easy and I don't always succeed (and with people like Arznei going round flinging insults just for the hell of it, who can blame me?), but I do what I can. And I expect nothing less in return.

[Klatrymadon]

not require of others what you can't accommodate yourself (tact).

In-fucking-deed. Plenty of people on this forum are poised to whine when directly bemoaned or attacked, but act like everybody else is being unreasonable when they unfetter their own venomous tongue.

Smile and buy a pint.

[Arvandor]

The d-pad is perfectly "pixel-perfect" for me. However, it's true I don't play Mushihimesama Maniac Mode.

Don't you mean Ultra Mode? I don't think pixel-perfect controls are really needed for Maniac mode. Helpful? Always, but needed? Probably not.

The d-pad is pixel perfect for me too, as I mentioned before. I can't do quick and small twitch dodging on my HRAP because of the bloody dead-space in the middle.

[Sonic R]

I'll post my preference now it seems the thread has cooled off (a bit).

I do control pads. Nintendo is the whole reason I play video games. I am a 30 year old and as a child I did not like Atari and the only arcade games I found a little enjoyment with were pac-man and defender. I hate sticks like Tim Hardaway hates gays. I find absolutely no comfort in them and it is physically painful for me to play for any decent amount with an arcade stick and in the case of Neo Geo I can only play for a few minutes unless its Baseball Stars which requires minimal use of controls and I am still trying to locate a Neo CD pad so I can get maximum enjoyment out of my AES.

I have friends who swear by sticks but I will not do it. So to each there own. Have fun with what ever you do. Stick or pad, console or arcade, tate or yoko, horizontal or vertical, Cave or Psikyo.

[Arznei]

Personal preference, motherfucker, do you know it?

No, but I know your mother, fucker.

Absolutely god damned stupid response that doesn't cater to anything I've said? Check.

Face it, you tried to tell an unwilling audience that arcade sticks were superior, yet in your process tripped up and failed. It's entirely someone's choice what they wish to use with these games, and there's no way arcade sticks are "better" just because japanese people play with them at the arcades. They play with them at the arcades because they don't have a choice, and this has already been said in the thread.

There's no point in rehashing this subject. Saying that, it's been done a million times. People will play with whatever they prefer. Icycalm is clearly biased towards arcade sticks and thinks that they're superior in his own little fantasy. Others will use pads and couldn't care less what x ragenerd online thinks. It's all a matter of personal preference.

People need to stop fussing over shit like this. Seriously.

and with people like Arznei going round flinging insults just for the hell of it, who can blame me?

You were cooked long before I entered this thread, turkey.

[Damocles]

Oh my god. 4 pages on a preference.

[D]

It seems once again some people are talking past each other and everybody on this thread could be right.
So many things have not been discussed in this thread.
For instance. Everybody can play a pad in any condition. Joysticks are a little less relaxing to play. Do you put in on your lap? or on a table? On a table will it be in a fixed position or do you have to use half your strength to keep holding the thing on a table or on your lap.
When we do talk about pads we offcourse talk about the king of pads, the Saturn pad.
So as far as a relaxing play on the couch I'd say a pad, but I much more prefer standing or sitting in front of a cab. The only thing I'm still (you amateur) having somewhat of a difficulty with is doing dragonpunches on a stick. With a pad it's this spastic movement I can do in my sleep. But that more on my end.
I do think that if you know how to hold a joystick and/or have it set up correctly you could achieve higher scores.
Simple practice: try to spasticly vibrate your wrist/lower arm.
Now tryto make spastic movements with your thumb and not just any movement, the movement you'd need to make on a pad.
It's shocking isn't it.
Controlling joysticks are much more natural feeling and quicker and more intuitive.
I for one coulnd't see myself sittning on the couch holding a stick and playing sitting at a table is a no-no.
So, whatever YOU are using isn't necesarilly the best. It could be your preference for now, but if you're in scoring competitions you'd might want to think about switching, there'll be a learning curve, unfortunately there are no known models to project the time it takes to get used to it.
PS.
I've owned a NEO GEO once with a stick and that's all I had. Those sticks are loose and require little effort to keep the joystick base in position.
So I'm affraid to say I haven't played with loads of sticks before, just one.
It's also a matter of what kind of stick you use, how strong your hands are, the size of the base, the make of joystick and buttons and the quality of your gear. The type of couch, the way you're used to sitting while playing, and so many other factors to consider.
Don't compare a loose leaf switch joystick with a brand new Saturn Pad. And don't compare a brand new Seimitsu stick with a Dreamcast pad.
So everybody have a blast playing shmups. Great threads. Heated threads are good. If we all agreed on something and all knew everything then what would be the point of threads.
I think we all need to grow up a little and less bashing whoever has a clear disagreement with a mod. Wouldn't it be great if feuds could be fought out online in 2 player shmup and see who survives the longest and/or gets most points? this would bring more humor to threads. We could go: "Oh, yeah? You and me buddy, 1400 online"

-patience, the future is now