Stick or pad

[MrMonkeyMan]

But now, these Japanese players play in the arcade, and weren't really given the chance to play these games with a pad. Who's to say if they were to start playing with a pad for a few months they wouldn't suddenly find that their skills have improved? They've all just got this bad habbit of using sticks.

Didn't WIZ get something like 34 million points in Ikaruga the first time he played the Gamecube version with the Gamecube controller, or something like that?

You're just making rules up. We all know there is no rule here.

What's really important is your knowledge of the game, route planning, and just practice.

[icycalm]

You're just making rules up. We all know there is no rule here.

What's really important is your knowledge of the game, route planning, and just practice.

We all know?

Who is we?

Have you even read the other responses in this thread?

So with knowledge of the game, route planning, practice and a MOUSE I can 1CC Do Donpachi Dai-Ou-Jou?

[Frederik]

I always wondered if there was some kind of research on that matter - with number and diagrams and all that stuff - on different game controllers, just to get a look at the hard facts. There MUST be someone geek enough to check out game controllers on a deeper level.

[MrMonkeyMan]

You're just making rules up. We all know there is no rule here.

What's really important is your knowledge of the game, route planning, and just practice.

We all know?

Who is we?

Have you even read the other responses in this thread?

So with knowledge of the game, route planning, practice and a MOUSE I can 1CC Do Donpachi Dai-Ou-Jou?

Can you even 1CC Daioujou with your superior stick skills?

Come on, comparing a mouse to a stick and a pad is ridiculous. Those two have very similiar designs, where you are simply pressing buttons to move your ship around sometimes even tapping these directions. A mouse is designed for smooth flowing motions, not tapping, although I guess you can tap your mouse around.

Still, I'm willing to bet that if ISO (or whoever the top DDPDOJ player is), for some reason, felt compelled to clear Daioujou with just the mouse he could do it. He already knows exactly where he wants to be at all times, all he has to do is get used to moving the ship with the mouse.

[Frederik]

It's an interesting one because you would have thought pads would be better because of the response time as the joystick has further to travel.

I´ve been thinking about this one for some time, too. I wonder if there is any proper research on that issue. All that pushing and pulling involved in playing with a stick felt so inconvenient to me.

And while it´s all too natural that racing games work well with steering wheels and FPS work best with mouse and keyboard, shmups simply require digital eight way input and some buttons. It´s not that pad and sticks are as far apart from each other as a racing wheel and a touchscreen.

[icycalm]

Can you even 1CC Daioujou with your superior stick skills?

What on God's good name does that have to do with anything?!

You seem to be getting distracted from the main issue. This thread is about whether sticks or pads are better for shooting games, not whether I myself can clear this or that game with a stick.

So what I am saying is that, up until now, all evidence points to the superiority of sticks. The Japanese STG community agrees with me, and a couple of guys on shmups.com are simply exceptions to that rule.

And don't think that just because Japan has arcades that the Japanese people have never seen pads in their lives. All of them have had consoles and used pads and they can clearly see their limitations.

[elvis]

The pad is simply inadequate for translating the tiny, precise movements that are required.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts. Sure I can use a pad, but getting the ultra-precise controls is nigh impossible and ultimately frustrating.

I use sticks for all my shmups and fighters. It's just not an option for me.

And just quietly, I don't give a rat's arse what anyone else uses. I game for me, not the bloke next door and not the Japanese world champion.

Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one, and they all stink.

[MrMonkeyMan]

Can you even 1CC Daioujou with your superior stick skills?

What on God's good name does that have to do with anything?!

So with knowledge of the game, route planning, practice and a MOUSE I can 1CC Do Donpachi Dai-Ou-Jou?

But, if Japan says sticks are better, than they must be better. Japan is always right afterall. It has nothing to do with the fact that you can't just walk in to an arcade, plug in your pad and start playing, or that Arcadia will let you submit a score you got sitting at home maybe using a pad. They're kind of forced into using sticks, why would they go to pads when they're so comfortable with sticks? Just like, why would I bother using a stick when I can play just as well with a pad which I am more comfortable with.

I still strongly believe everyone here who says sticks have improved their skill would find they can play just as well with a pad if they were to go back.

[99pence]

Of course those japanese players are going to more into sticks, thats the standard, you can't use pads in an arcade. That's what they're used to.

[Frederik]

All of them have had consoles and used pads and they can clearly see their limitations.

Are there any technical restrictions that keeps you from executing moves on a pad that you could do with a stick? This is by no means an ironic question - I´ve played with a stick myself - but I really wanna know WHY TECHNICALLY a stick is supposed better (or worse) than a pad, not considering what certain people prefer.

For instance, one of those factors would be the lag between your hand doing a motion and the controller registering it. And you also have to consider what KIND of stick or pad you use - the worst stick avaiable can´t still be better than the best pad. Are we talking about the BEST pad VS the BEST stick, or just sticks and pads in general?

[Galdur]

And don't think that just because Japan has arcades that the Japanese people have never seen pads in their lives.

No, but assuming that the arcade is where most Japanese players play their shooting games, they have little other choice than to use sticks (especially for new games). And when these games get ports, the players would already be used to the arcade control scheme and would thus see no reason to spend time adapting to a control pad.

This seems to have less to do with superiority/inferiority and more with long-term habits formed through arcade exposure.

[Ghegs]

Exactly. You have to consider the environment in which the gamer plays in and has played in for years if not decades.

And with Galdur's post, we've come a full circle.

[CIT]

This seems to have less to do with superiority/inferiority and more with long-term habits formed through arcade exposure.

Precisely. I actually saw a cab in a Japanese arcade running a Famicom with Super Mario Bros once, and the stick had been removed from the panel and out of the hole came a cord with a Famicontroller (one of the shitty 1st generation ones where the cord goes into the controller at the side - right where you're supposed to be holding it). Why did somebody go through all the trouble of modding a shitty ass controller into an Astro City? Probably because that's how everybody remembers playing this game, and it just wouldn't feel right with a stick.

[99pence]

This seems to have less to do with superiority/inferiority and more with long-term habits formed through arcade exposure.

Precisely. I actually saw a cab in a Japanese arcade running a Famicom with Super Mario Bros once, and the stick had been removed from the panel and out of the hole came a cord with a Famicontroller (one of the shitty 1st generation ones where the cord goes into the controller at the side - right where you're supposed to be holding it). Why did somebody go through all the trouble of modding a shitty ass controller into an Astro City? Probably because that's how everybody remembers playing this game, and it just wouldn't feel right with a stick.

That's funny, I was just going to say, who plays Mario with a stick.

[j^aws]

...
That's funny, I was just going to say, who plays Mario with a stick.

First time I played SMB was in the arcades with a stick!... It's a bizzaro world...

[icycalm]

I find it impossible to believe that it's all just habit and coincidence.

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific genre. Either sticks are better for shooting games, or pads are. They simply cannot be equal, if for no other reason than that they are different.

The scientific way to discover which control method is better suited to this type of game would be to take a large sample of people who've never played a shooter in their lives, and have them play shooters over a long period of time -- half of them using pads, the other half with sticks. If you make the sample large enough then differences in motivation and natural ability diminish, and in the end all you have to do is compare their scores.

If such an experiment was ever carried out I am 100% certain that sticks would simply trounce pads. Of course you'd have a couple of MrMonkeyMans in the pads group, but that would only be a statistical anomaly, an exception, as I explained...


edit:

Oh and here's one more thing to consider...

Let's assume for a moment that the only reason all decent Japanese players use sticks is because they grew up in arcades.

How, then, can you explain that the majority of good western players also prefer sticks? We don't have arcades in the US and Europe, and our best players still overwhelmingly prefer sticks...

We could actually do a little reasearch on this. We can just ask the top 5 or top 10 western players in various games to tell us what they use. I bet the results will be uncontestable.

[99pence]

...
That's funny, I was just going to say, who plays Mario with a stick.

First time I played SMB was in the arcades with a stick!... It's a bizzaro world...

Man I forgot you could play mario in the arcade. I bet you could pull off moves in the arcade marios that the guys at home with pads could only dream of. Pipes that could be only entered with a stick.

The pad players all just standing there watching, saying 'this is just crazy, is this for real, what's going on?'

[Turrican]

I find it impossible to believe that it's all just habit and coincidence.

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific genre. Either sticks are better for shooting games, or pads are. They simply cannot be equal, if for no other reason than that they are different.

Recognizing a difference doesn't mean there's a superior side and a limited one. Apples are not superior to oranges.

more in specific, the major change between stick and pad is the time that the motion requires. It's not possible to state that one time is always better than the other: it just depends on how the game is programmed. I played some megadrive games with the arcade stick and they controlled just worse - like, clearly, physically worse as in "coded for something else" not as in "this feels funny I'm not used to it".

[icycalm]

I find it impossible to believe that it's all just habit and coincidence.

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific genre. Either sticks are better for shooting games, or pads are. They simply cannot be equal, if for no other reason than that they are different.

Recognizing a difference doesn't mean there's a superior side and a limited one. Apples are not superior to oranges.

Not universally superior. Superior for a specific purpose.

For example, if you want to make a fruit juice, oranges are better than apples because they have more juice.

lol, etc.

[ktownhero]

Everybody just go home and test it. Try "taps" with a good stick, and then with a good pad. In my experience, the stick GREATLY beats out even the best pad in small movements and precision. Maybe you are better at tapping a pad than me, then good for you. Use whatever you like and works best.

[Turrican]

Not universally superior. Superior for a specific purpose.

Yes, and that specific purpose is each specific game coded with the proper reaction time for a suited controller... not a whole genre.

Stick being the preferred method of choice is just statistic, due to arcade's great influence of course.

[Pirate1019]

Icycalm makes it sound like Japanese players are better at shmups because they use sticks. It couldn't possibly be because they put in more effort, plan better, practice more, and have shmups more readily available then us. It because they use a stick.

Nonsense, I say.

Use whatever the fuck you want. Pads and Sticks are most likely better for games like shmups or fighters then a mouse or keyboard, but if that's your favorite control method then have at it. 8-way digital sticks and pads are identical when it comes down to the wiring. I don't understand how anybody can claim that they get more accurate inputs with a stick then a pad. Tap the stick, tap the pad. The only difference is a persons familiarity with one or the other and which they feel more natural using.

I play using pads by the way. Not enough spare money to get a good stick and I'll buy another game before a stick any day. Although this opinion of mine could easily change once I get a MAME cabinet up and working.

[j^aws]

...
That's funny, I was just going to say, who plays Mario with a stick.

First time I played SMB was in the arcades with a stick!... It's a bizzaro world...

Man I forgot you could play mario in the arcade. I bet you could pull off moves in the arcade marios that the guys at home with pads could only dream of. Pipes that could be only entered with a stick.

The pad players all just standing there watching, saying 'this is just crazy, is this for real, what's going on?'

Yeah, I definitely preferred the stick over the NES pad for SMB. However, the modern Saturn D-pad is a different beast though... especially in the 3D analogue pad incarnation...

That being said, I think I prefer sticks for old skool twitch shmups...

[Frederik]

Everybody just go home and test it. Try "taps" with a good stick, and then with a good pad. In my experience, the stick GREATLY beats out even the best pad in small movements and precision. Maybe you are better at tapping a pad than me, then good for you. Use whatever you like and works best.

Doesn´t the term "tapping" relate to pads in the first place?

[Pirate1019]

How, then, can you explain that the majority of good western players also prefer sticks? We don't have arcades in the US and Europe, and our best players still overwhelmingly prefer sticks...

It couldn't be something as simple as the possibility that they think sticks are more fun to play on or are more comfortable to use for long periods. Both of which are opinions not rooted in fact.

[ktownhero]

Everybody just go home and test it. Try "taps" with a good stick, and then with a good pad. In my experience, the stick GREATLY beats out even the best pad in small movements and precision. Maybe you are better at tapping a pad than me, then good for you. Use whatever you like and works best.

Doesn´t the term "tapping" relate to pads in the first place?

Yes. I'm referring to the small movements made usually by lightly tapping a stick or pad. Could call it a lot of different things, I'm not going to get into some semantics war.

[icycalm]

Icycalm makes it sound like Japanese players are better at shmups because they use sticks. It couldn't possibly be because they put in more effort, plan better, practice more, and have shmups more readily available then us. It because they use a stick.

Nonsense, I say.

Yes, what you are saying is indeed nonsense. Because I sure as hell never said that.

Try brushing up on your reading comprehension skills before you waltz into a thread and start insulting people.

Use whatever the fuck you want.

And thanks for that wonderful insight. It really helps our discussion.

[freddiebamboo]

No two control methods are equal when discussing a specific genre. Either sticks are better for shooting games, or pads are. They simply cannot be equal, if for no other reason than that they are different.

Your logic isn't quite right here icycalm. They are different - so players will prefer using either one or the other. Controllers are only bits of plastic that move your ship about, they don't determine how good you are (or could be) at a game.

[Monk 0 Nuggets]

I'm going to find out which works better for me next Tuesday when my Hori RAP comes in. I agree that whatever works for a specific person is the best for them. I can't see how there could possibly be one completely better than another.

[icycalm]

Your logic isn't quite right here icycalm. Controllers are only bits of plastic that move your ship about, they don't determine how good you are (or could be) at a game.

The logic is right there, man.

Pads and keyboards/mice are also bits of plastic that help move you around in an FPS.

Sure, you can finish an FPS with a controller, and you can probably get some kills online with it as well. But most good FPS players consistently prefer the keyboard/mouse combination for a reason. And that's the same reason that most high-scoring STG players prefer sticks.