Ketsui is officially cancelled for the PS2

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:12 am

He refers to it as "character", which I guess would be any character sprite that needs to be loaded. As Valgar said there are 30-40 enemy types in Stage 5.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:15 am

twe wrote:=THE END OF CONSOLE SHMUP PORTS??

As much as I always say I have more shooters than I know what to do with already, this would still be a very sad thing to have happen =( I really hope it isn't the end of console shmup ports. I don't know if I'd ever have the kind of money needed to get an arcade cabinet setup and buy PCBs =/

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:21 am

Arvandor wrote: I don't know if I'd ever have the kind of money needed to get an arcade cabinet setup and buy PCBs =/

Just get a cheap supergun and wait a few years. Most Cave shmup boards end up being $200-$400 for a bare PCB.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:29 am

I only vaguely even know what a Supergun is, and only because I've heard them mentioned around here. And $200-$300 for a single game is asking a bit much for me. It's actually the PCB price that's more daunting to me than the arcade setup. I mean, it was hard enough buying Radiant Silvergun for ~$120. As much as I love ESPgaluda and DDP: DOJ, I dunno if I could have justified spending a few hundred dollars for each. Though granted, I DO get INSANE more amounts of playtime out of shooters than I do most anything else, but still.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:32 am

What I did was sell off most of my console stuff, which I hadn't touched in 6-12 months, and bought a handful of Cave PCB kits (Ibara, Mushihime-sama, Epgaluda 2, Mushihime-sama Futari, and Pink Sweets). Best gaming decision ever. I couldn't be happier!

There's no better gaming feeling for me than firing up an authentic Cave SH3 PCB.

Maybe in a few years you'll make a similar decision, but maybe not.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:37 am

Hmm, it's quite plausible actually =P Though, most of the stuff that I won't have played in the next 6 months to a year probably won't net me a whole lot of money -_^ My most valuble games are games that I play quite frequently, aside from maybe Megaman X3 on the SNES, I understand that goes for a bit even cartridge only.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:39 am

"I think the stage 5 slowdown thing could've been nailed with a little more time."

I could have dealt with slowdown in one stage. THAT is the reason we get no port? LAME!!!

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:41 am

Even if you only have enough to get one PCB, if you choose a quality game (Galuda 2, Mushi Futari, etc), that will last you for ages. So for me the experience of playing a top-tier shooter which is a real arcade PCB, and knowing my scores are on the same playing field as the Japanese arcade players (and most console ports can't claim this), it's a great feeling well worth the price of admission. Not everyone feels this way, however.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:51 am

Yeah, it'd probably be a long way down the road before I bought a PCB, and it'd probably be Mushi Futari or ESP2 (unless Cave puts something else out in the years to come -_^). For now I have more than enough console shooters to keep me happy for years. I own... 30 shooters? Something like that, and I've only 1cc'ed two of them, getting close on two more... There are about 20 I'd like to 1cc, and about a half dozen that I could find myself dumping time into for score. So... There's thousands of hours of gameplay queued up right there ^_^ And who knows, by the time it becomes a concern, I might have a larger "fun money" budget.

KBZ · Post by **KBZ** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:12 am

grim...

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:21 am

I don't have a lot of time, as I'm working, but

"recreate" = emulate slowdown, and recreate the video (feeling) of the arcade. IE, ship moving over the same amount of pixels at the same rate as the arcade.

<SNIP>
<from about halfway down;>

So why was ketsui a no go?
The biggest reason is that we 'could not recreate the tate-ana'. This is due to a lack of character RAM. That, and the charcter movement speed that it supports. on the arcade pcb, the character ROM is freely accessible. However, on the PS2, you cannot access something that is not in the systems RAM. In other words, for a stage with numerous characters, you have to load it's RAM. To handle this we implemented some sophisticated middlewear, but it just couldn't keep up around the tate-ana.

In this situation, you cannot display characters that aren't there [in RAM], so our only choice was to stop [production]. [blah blah]. This also puts workload on the PS2's DVD unit, so for a unit with a somewhat used DVD drive would be awful.

<SNIP>

What about the PS3, 360, or Wii? Can you port it to one of those? "Yes". However, this is a hard shooting game. Selling said game would be obscenely difficult. So, we won't bother.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:27 am

GaijinPunch wrote:What about the PS3, 360, or Wii? Can you port it to one of those? "Yes". However, this is a hard shooting game. Selling said game would be obscenely difficult. So, we won't bother.

Your translation is wrong here, GJP. See my original translation on the previous page. The Japanese you are incorrect with is:

でもこれらのハードでシューティングゲームを商売するのは非常に難しいので当然踏み出せません

これらのハード refers to "the aforementioned hardware". It has nothing to do with a "hard game".

The only reason I'm pointing this out is that there is a very big difference in the meaning of your translation and mine due to this small part.

ReKleSS · Post by **ReKleSS** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:11 am

I wonder if mid-level loading was considered...?

Thanks, GP and twe. Could I trouble someone to attempt a translation of the title? I really can't make any sense of it:
読み直しすると何が言いたいのかわからん?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:18 am

Whoops... told ya I was busy.

Anway, it's even more of a slam on the hardware. "Can't sell any shooting game on it" basically is what he's saying.

I wonder if mid-level loading was considered...?

I HIGHLY doubt it. Even though, after the midboss, it wouldn't have that much effect on the game, would it?

Could I trouble someone to attempt a translation of the title? I really can't make any sense of it:
読み直しすると何が言いたいのかわからん?

Good luck. "After re-reading, I don't know what I want to say".... or something like that. He throws in the question mark for that extra Japanese confusion. It's not a question, but more a marker of uncertainty.

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:34 am

Specineff wrote:Why do I get the feeling that the DC would have been able to handle this?

Strangely, I had that same initial feeling, as much as it may be lacking justification.

zakk wrote:2) All that code they have for the PS2? It means nothing for a port to another platform. It's going to be full of hand-tweaked assembly language and various other PS2-specific things. Releasing it on another platform would involve nearly starting from scratch again. This code is 'going to waste' no matter if they never relase this OR release it on another console.

Still, the experience is fresh in their minds. I think of it as how it's said that learning one foreign language helps you to learn another; Maybe even none of the PS2 code would be used, but drawing on the methodologies used and pitfalls encountered would result in less "oh, that's right" moments later on. Just an idea, I suppose.

nZero wrote:Resolution issue comes up again. Gotta come up with an exact full-screen low-resolution mode that works under Windows 2K/XP/Vista with a large majority of graphiccards.

Ah, that's right. I was also thinking that PC would probably be their best bet, but then I forgot that most people are using XP/Vista and that things like Raiden III are polygon-based.

nZero wrote:Well, the extra VRAM and the deferred rendering may help if that's where the bottleneck actually is, but... it still seems like a ridiculously implausible course of action.

I agree. Knowing only a small bit of the way that these consoles actually work, it seems like a mere increase from 4 to 8 MB of video memory wouldn't make all the difference in the world, and the decrease of 32 to 16 MB of main memory would probably present likewise insurmountable problems.

Maybe it was brought to the PS2 for other reasons [as well], but I thought that the French-Bread (or Ecole?) were going to port Melty Blood Act Cadenza to the DC, but had problems relating to insufficient memory. Maybe the situation is different, but I feel as though if MBAC couldn't be on the DC, then Ketsui probably couldn't either.

I'm curious as to what Mr Mihara believes that the game could possibly be ported to with regard to technical specifications only, even if I couldn't imagine the game going to GCN or XB either, and I don't even know if those support the necessary video resolution.

nZero wrote:Especially if the rumor about discontinuing GD-ROM pressing is true. Has Arika even done any previous Dreamcast development?

I don't believe that they have. As an aside, from what I can tell, it seems like this would be a pretty big release for the DC. I don't know if SEGA would do something like keeping GD-ROM facilities running for it, though.

It seems that they've worked with PS, PS2, Wii and X360 (aside from arcade and various published titles).

twe wrote:"People ask if we could port shooting games to the PS3, X360, or Wii, and the answer is YES. However, because releasing shooting games on these hardware systems is exceedingly difficult, naturally we cannot take steps to do that."

=THE END OF CONSOLE SHMUP PORTS??

Ominous. I sense next-gen snootiness (on the part of the console companies).

What I'm hoping is that "releasing shooting games is difficult" now, and that perhaps this restriction will become lax in the future. Unfortunately, this might mean that a lot of shooting games go without porting for a fair amount of time. Depending on what Treasure and G.rev and Konami are working on, however, perhaps we'll still see polygon-based shooting games ported to home consoles in the interim.

I can understand the game console companies' reasoning if this is indeed the case. However, I have to disagree with the basis, because if shooting games like this are thought of as being "too old" or "too simple" then what do you call walking around with a gun and shooting people? Or hula-hooping? Or collecting little monsters in balls? All of these things have been around for ages, so I suppose that the true criteria for next-gen games is real-life simulation and bloom, as relatively fun and uninteresting as that may be.

ReKleSS wrote:I wonder if mid-level loading was considered...?

Actually, it seems that they were already using mid-level loading, with all the talk about streaming data to RAM from disc and old DVD-ROM drives likely failing from all of the work. It sounds like they were using streaming to get around the fact that they didn't have enough memory for the characters and sprites and everything, and that it worked up until stage five, where the amount of graphical data required was simply too much and the dynamically loading into memory from disc couldn't handle it anymore, resulting in systemwide breakdown and, basically, failure. Serious.

If only consoles these days had memory expansion like in the 32-bit days.

(I use emoticons to keep from cussing.)

I agree that for them to break this news, it's a lot like tugging on some heart strings that you thought had already broken. I wonder why they did it as well, but perhaps, it's so that fans can know that they tried their hardest, and that it simply couldn't work out, and why that is.

Wishful thinkers will probably guess that by divulging such information, they "want" fans to convince them to try to bring the game to a particular platform, though.

Valgar wrote:You know what I haven't had in a while? Big League Chew.

Isn't that stuff like shoestring bubblegum? Now my mouth is watering.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:56 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
I wonder if mid-level loading was considered...?
I HIGHLY doubt it. Even though, after the midboss, it wouldn't have that much effect on the game, would it?

Right after the mid-boss dies comes the fast swarm of bonus popcorn enemies. Being in the wrong position when they start leads to much badness. Having a 'loading!' pause there would really really suck.

I can't think of any part of that stage where you could sneak in mid-level loading and not cause issues. It doesn't help that the stage is fairly long.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:38 am

I'd take a flawed port over no port, I don't have the cash for PCBs

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:17 am

It's funny to me that after years of hearing at this board about how shoddy the Mushi, Ibara, Giga Wing Generations, etc. ports are, now that a company refuses to release an inferior product, everyone is saying "we'll take it! I don't care if it sucks!"

It definitely would be better than nothing, but Ketsui deserves better than that. If Arika can't do it right, then they're smart in not doing it at all.

Arznei · Post by **Arznei** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:39 am

NTSC-J wrote:It's funny to me that after years of hearing at this board about how shoddy the Mushi, Ibara, Giga Wing Generations, etc. ports are, now that a company refuses to release an inferior product, everyone is saying "we'll take it! I don't care if it sucks!"

That's because people here are desperate for new shooters, but the average shooting fan/gamer would be pretty annoyed with the turnout.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:59 am

I've bought all the ports... the best i can do. For me something is better than nothing unless the outcome is REALLY awful.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:12 pm

I've heard the complaints, and am still planning on picking up Mushihime-sama at the very least, abortion port or not (I find Dodonpachi on the Saturn to be quite good enough, to hell with you all). Giga Wing Generations is probably one I'll skip out on though -_^

And a bastardized port of Ketsui I'd definitely take.

mannerbot · Post by **mannerbot** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:17 pm

I would have bought it regardless even though it would probably just sit on my shelf for a year or so. But respect to Arika.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:06 pm

For those who can't afford PCBs -- i.e. for the vast majority of people -- the only solution for playing arcade-perfect Cave shooters is MAME, and it's a damn fine one. (DOJ and Galuda are two notable exceptions.)

Eventually MAME will make redundant even the Ibara and Mushihime PS2 ports, since with MAME you'll be able to connect your PC to a 15kHz monitor and get true low-res graphics.

And it's easy to be patient, since you have all the old Cave shooters to play on MAME in the meantime.

Because who among those clamoring for new ports have 1CCed every single one of the pre-DOJ Cave shooters? I personally don't know anyone, and if there are some among us who have done this, you can bet your ass that they are already doing everything in their power to get into the expensive PCB-buying hobby.

Things are really not that bad. As long as Cave keeps making 2D shooters the genre will stay alive, and we'll all one day get to play them.

In the meantime let's be happy with all these masterpieces that we have.

Inkvisitor · Post by **Inkvisitor** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:07 pm

This is just sad. The port is almost completed but impossible to finish because there's just not enough memory? Were's the last-minute-desperate-magic-trick developers usually manage to pull off?

Ok, I'll start waiting for the PC version...

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:14 pm

Inkvisitor wrote:
Ok, I'll start waiting for the PC version...

no use, theres no porn in ketsui

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:12 pm

"we'll take it! I don't care if it sucks!"

I never said that... and I could really use some type of stage select to quit sucking ass at stage 5.

Sonic R · Post by **Sonic R** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:56 pm

NTSC-J wrote:It's funny to me that after years of hearing at this board about how shoddy the Mushi, Ibara, Giga Wing Generations, etc. ports are, now that a company refuses to release an inferior product, everyone is saying "we'll take it! I don't care if it sucks!"

I never played any of the originals so I was VERY please with Mushi and Ibara, though Giga Wing Generations was questionable(compared to the DC offerings).

PCB gaming is not likely a route I will take as the price is very restrictive for me. Twe was able to sell his console games and make the transition to PCB's but even he said this may not work for everyone and it won't work for me. I have 20+ years in my consoles and if I get rid of them I may as well just snuff myself. Console ports are pretty much the only way I play shoot them ups and being in a western nation these games do not appear in the 2 lackluster arcades in my area so I have no other choice but play via console.

So sad that Ketsui will not be realized on a console.

jiji · Post by **jiji** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:35 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:Those are old 15khz progressive games being played in either 31khz mode, or 15khz interlaced. Sharp is not really the word to use here.

I don't know about the PS3 (I hear it doesn't support low res) but I know the Wii doesn't. No offense to those that love their Wii, but being a system that was built to bring in new, casual gamers is by far the worst choice for a game like Ketsui (Old and nitch).

The Wii does support low-res ("240p") mode. All of the Virtual Console games use this mode if they can. I hooked my roommate's Wii up to a 1084 monitor via composite, and Wario's Woods was true low-res, clear as day.

Wii should be the console for Cave's ports if PS2 can't handle them any longer. I almost hate myself for saying that, but it's true. The development costs are low enough and the installed base high enough in comparison with the other two next-gen consoles that it's the only one that makes sense, and the presence of a real low-res mode seals the deal.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:05 pm

The Wii does support low-res ("240p") mode. All of the Virtual Console games use this mode if they can. I hooked my roommate's Wii up to a 1084 monitor via composite, and Wario's Woods was true low-res, clear as day.

This is for sure? I even remember them saying before it was released that all VC games were progressive (meaning high-res progressive). If this is the case, it would need a nice stick to go with it, and of course an RGB cable.

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:13 pm

Well dont give up hope yet, remember Propeller Arena and Half Life Gold, Thrill kill, The Red Star, ect. It will happen, just make sure your Ps2 is "equipped" when the time comes. Some A hole is gonna leak this all over usenet in the near future.