Best Console for Shmups?

DeathsHead · Post by **DeathsHead** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:59 am

What do you think the best system for shmups is? I use to think Saturn, but I think the ps2 may very well be the new leader of the pack if they keep cranking shooters out at the rate they are....thats including collections and unique titles.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:02 am

Yea, maybe...that is if you own a Japanses PS2!! Still, the Saturn has many more (somewhat) recent titles.
Otherwise, back in the day, I would say Genesis and Turbo Grafx/PC-Engine.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:07 am

As many goodies as there are now on the PS2 I still say the two best systsems for shooters are the Saturn and PCE. But if the PS2 gets Mushihime Sama and Raiden III it will then be right up there IMHO. I dunno why those two are the deal breaker for me, but if we can get another Cave port after Arika's falling out and a new Seibu home port then it'll be sealed. I guess I'm just too busy with Progear and trying to 1CC DDP to bother with the PS2 Cave games. But Mushihime just has an irristible art style. Oh and some RF ports too PLEASE.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:26 am

yay, console wars!

dc, saturn, ps2 are the best. genesis is ok.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:32 am

I personally think the TG-16/PC Engine is the best console for classic style shmups. There is Xevious, 1943 Kai, Air Zonk, Blazing Lazers, the Star Soldier games, Gradius, Salamader, Detana Twinbee, Parodius, Truxton, Galaga '88, Spriggan, an updated version of Space Invaders, one of the better ports of Twin Cobra/Ultimate Tiger, Dragon Spirit, and tons more. Even on Hu Card, there are tons of great shmups for the TG-16/PC Engine.

Post by **Ghegs** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:23 am

PS2 for modern shmups, PCE for old-school.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:52 am

how are you sure it's better than the dc and saturn when you don't have either

no console wars/flames plz anyone, just thought it was a valid point...

mannerbot · Post by **mannerbot** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:28 am

Well, as long as we're just making valid points...

How can you be sure that lemon meringue pie tastes better than my poop when you haven't tasted both?

P.S. Saturn rocks.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:35 am

I don't think it is possible to talk about a single console being best for shmups anymore than it is possible to talk about what single food you'd like to eat for the rest of your life.

I've found a modded ps2, saturn and genesis make a great team (the DC adds nicely too). I really should look into the PCE at some point...

Now really, it would be easier to say what the worst console for shmups is.

Post by **Ghegs** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:42 am

CMoon wrote: Now really, it would be easier to say what the worst console for shmups is.

Atari Jaguar!

Style-0 · Post by **Style-0** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:07 pm

Yeah the sega saturn is a nice shmup console and so is the PCE, but in terms of possible perfect ports new consoles like the PS2 has a better position since these days the performance capacity of home technology is quite even those you can find in the arcades (atleast when speaking about shmups). The question is if its allright to compare "dead" systems whith ones that are still going strong?

Ghegs wrote:Atari Jaguar!

Tempest 2000 and Defender ;any one knowing about more shmups for the Jaguar ?

Post by **Ghegs** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:11 pm

Style-0 wrote: Tempest 2000 and Defender ;any one knowing about more shmups for the Jaguar ?

Right, I totally forgot about Tempest. I hear that's actually the best version of the game?

Trevor McFur in the Crescent Galaxy

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:32 pm

Style-0 wrote:...any one knowing about more shmups for the Jaguar ?

I believe one of the Raiden games was on it...

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:44 pm

You guys have too much an "arcade point of view"... I mean, a modern console might be great for ports, but older systems were great because great shmups were actually coded for them. With this in mind, PS2 has Final and Gradius V, so it wins.
It is not however a specific hardware thing, how it used to be in the past. In the past, a programmer chose PCE because it was built with shooters in mind. Nowadays, you can port pretty much anything on powerful system, so the real advantage PS2 has on Xbox or Cube is the installed base. (which incidentally, is also the key factor Psone had against SS).

I think, speaking of classic era, there's general consensus on the PCE/Duo. Genesis would be great too, in terms of quantity, but... without Konami, it can't get my vote

I think however, than the best results are not on a hypothetical "best" hardware, but when programmers understand the hardware they're working on, and they code the shmup accordingly. That's why an unfit-for-the-genre console like the Snes ended up having a bunch of really great titles.

Ex_Mosquito · Post by **Ex_Mosquito** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:07 pm

PC Engine shooters are WAY overrated i reckon. I mean 90% of them were arcade ports which now pale in comparison to arcade perfect versions on mame and other consoles, making the bulk of its shooters obsolete. And the gunhed series, Soldier Blade etc.... erm, 5 minute levels with a very minimum threat of getting killed.

Sorry, it has to be said

BUHA · Post by **BUHA** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:19 pm

i have to agree with ex mosquito about the PC Engine games. I was into it for awhile, but the games didn't have a lot of lasting appeal, sadly.

Bydobasher · Post by **Bydobasher** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:49 pm

A shmup's "overratedness" is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

However, I take issue with Ex_Mosquito's point about the obsolescence of the PCE's arcade ports. Just as NES "ports" of arcade originals always have their own peculiar take on the source material -- since a pixel-perfect port was of course impossible -- the PCE ports often have a unique personality of their own, distinct from the PCB games that served as their inspiration.

I don't subscribe to the notion that the arcade original is necessarily the best version available. Because of that, I cannot agree that these ports are not relevant simply because they are not arcade-perfect. Some may not like them, and that's fine, but for others it is precisely their differences from the arcade that is often the source of their charms.

Stormwatch · Post by **Stormwatch** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:18 pm

A modded XBox with a crapload of emulators?

the2bears · Post by **the2bears** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:02 pm

mannerbot wrote:Well, as long as we're just making valid points...

How can you be sure that lemon meringue pie tastes better than my poop when you haven't tasted both?

P.S. Saturn rocks.

Heh... you made me laugh today:)

Bill

ps. My vote is for DC.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:22 pm

Bydobasher wrote:
However, I take issue with Ex_Mosquito's point about the obsolescence of the PCE's arcade ports. Just as NES "ports" of arcade originals always have their own peculiar take on the source material -- since a pixel-perfect port was of course impossible -- the PCE ports often have a unique personality of their own, distinct from the PCB games that served as their inspiration.

you mean flaws of their own? lolo

anyway, for horiz, the megadrive just owns all, no doubt.

ill say PS2 since i like manics, but only once dragon blaze hits it.

DC, is cool but it doesnt have much exclusives besides the great takumi shmups, bangaioh and border down.

BIG · Post by **BIG** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:50 am

PS2 by a mile.

BIG-

Bydobasher · Post by **Bydobasher** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:32 am

you mean flaws of their own?

No, that's not what I mean.

I'm saying that the ports are different enough to be considered on their own merits; like I said, a "take" on the original. Very often, they were never meant to be arcade-perfect, so it doesn't make much sense to evaluate them by that measure alone -- or even by that measure at all.

Take PCE Salamander or PCE Raiden. They have checkpoints, which completely changes the flavour of the game. PCE 1943 Kai has several unique stages tacked on to the end of the game, while PCE Gradius and Gradius 2 also feature new levels exclusive to the system. The difficulty in PCE Mr. Heli has been massively toned down, making it much more playable. PCE Air Buster almost does away with the "no-gravity" in stages 4 and 5, completely altering the feel of those stages, while the famous stage 2 tunnels have also been redesigned. Other games (e.g. Dragon Spirit, Twin Cobra) exude their own character for a variety of reasons, not least of which being the fact they were designed to make full use of a television screen.

All these changes are more than simply regrettable but unavoidable deviations from the PCBs given the limited hardware on hand. As such, I think it does a disservice to these games to dismiss them out-of-hand for failing to be something they weren't intended to be in the first place.

LoneSage · Post by **LoneSage** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:48 am

I used to think the Genesis was far superior to the SNES in terms of shmups, but after thinking hard about it...the Genesis really had a load of shmups with not much personality; except Gaiares, and uh..Trouble Shooter. Gleylancer is for the MD.

Does anyone else think the Genesis is better than the SNES? I mean, the SNES had Axelay, Gradius III, UN Squadron..the system may have not been designed for shmup play, per se, but it does have a few classics.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:01 am

Turrican wrote:You guys have too much an "arcade point of view"... I mean, a modern console might be great for ports, but older systems were great because great shmups were actually coded for them. With this in mind, PS2 has Final and Gradius V, so it wins.
It is not however a specific hardware thing, how it used to be in the past. In the past, a programmer chose PCE because it was built with shooters in mind. Nowadays, you can port pretty much anything on powerful system, so the real advantage PS2 has on Xbox or Cube is the installed base. (which incidentally, is also the key factor Psone had against SS).

I think, speaking of classic era, there's general consensus on the PCE/Duo. Genesis would be great too, in terms of quantity, but... without Konami, it can't get my vote

I think however, than the best results are not on a hypothetical "best" hardware, but when programmers understand the hardware they're working on, and they code the shmup accordingly. That's why an unfit-for-the-genre console like the Snes ended up having a bunch of really great titles.

Gradius V is an excellent game and I heard some good things about R-Type Final, but I'm wondering about your logic for the PS2 as a selection for just those two titles alone, especially when other systems have more exclusives. I personally think the SNES is one of the best consoles for exclusives (edit: I forgot that the PCE/TG-16 actually has more exclusives, espcially if you count the CD games). With excellent exclusive games Pop 'n Twinbee, Axelay, and Space Megaforce, the SNES is hard to beat when it comes to SNES only titles. an "unfit-for-the-genre" console, the SNES has a lot of great shmups. R-Type III isn't exclusive anymore, but it's still a console game and the SNES still has the best version of it. I personally haven't played it, it seems that the general concenses is that it's better than R-Type Final.

IMO, different from the arcade doesn't necessarily mean inferior. I find the NES Life Force to be better than the arcade becuase of the new levels, gradius life bar system, better shield system, and new bosses. Some other Konami ports have added or changed levels and stuff like that too. I actually find the Genesis Truxton to be a bit better than other versions becuase of the toned down difficulty. I find it annoying when the quality of the gameplay is ignored and a game is considered crap becuase it is not just like the arcade game.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:10 am

BrianC wrote:...the SNES is hard to beat when it comes to SNES only titles.

One would think so.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:29 am

uhhh....

the snes is good and all, just not for shmups, really.

what does it have? poor versions of gradius 3 and rtype 2, RT3 that is supposed to be good, axelay, twinbee (meh, really) parodius (cool game) and the legendary super aleste, wich is downright stupid long, not something ill play these days.

MD has thunderforce series, super fantasy zone, gley lancer, gaiares, eliminate down, bio hazard battle, all these toaplan titles and much more, it just cant compare.

on the other hand, the MD sucks for rpgs.

this is not to start a console war, but if youre looking for a snes just for shmups, you might be disappointed, so its better to be aware.

Melf · Post by **Melf** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:05 am

If you're a shmup fan, you can't get by with just one system. IMO, the ones to own are:

- Genesis
- PC-Engine
- Saturn

Those are the best, although the DC and Playstation have their fair share of worthy shmups to own.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:43 am

The vagrant wrote:uhhh....

the snes is good and all, just not for shmups, really.

what does it have? poor versions of gradius 3 and rtype 2, RT3 that is supposed to be good, axelay, twinbee (meh, really) parodius (cool game) and the legendary super aleste, wich is downright stupid long, not something ill play these days.

MD has thunderforce series, super fantasy zone, gley lancer, gaiares, eliminate down, bio hazard battle, all these toaplan titles and much more, it just cant compare.

on the other hand, the MD sucks for rpgs.

this is not to start a console war, but if youre looking for a snes just for shmups, you might be disappointed, so its better to be aware.

Poor in your opinion. I personally think Gradius III SNES rocks. It does have massive slowdown, but it's not as insanely hard as the arcade version. The amount of customization in the power up system is incredible. I also love the cool level designs like the area full of bubbles that split when you shoot them and the homage to Gradius II.

Pop 'n Twinbee is one of my favorite shmups on any system. I love the bell power up system, the bosses that have two parts, the ability to bomb ground objects (though this is in every Twinbee), the awesome two player mode, the colorful graphics, the charge punch that can be used to get rid of seemingly indestructable enemies (though the one in Twinbee Yahoo is much cooler), the colorful cast of enemies, and the fun level designs. I also like how it's harder to actidentially change the bells when the power up you want comes up. It is a bit more atmospheric than the other Twinbee games, though.

The SNES does have some crappy arcade ports like Raiden Trad and Super R-Type is weak in comparison to the original R-Type 2, though. The GB version of R-Type II (which is actually a good port IMO) beats it! You are right about the Genesis games. Thunder Force III is an awesome game and there are other cool exclusive games on the system. It's just that the Genesis does arcade ports a bit better than the SNES (edit: I changed the post to make the wording a bit better) and I was so carried away with the SNES exclusive shmups being better than the majority of SNES arcade ports, that I forgot about the exclusives, which is pretty bad since the Genesis exclusives rock every bit as much as the arcade ports. BTW, you forgot to list Musha, unless you count it as one of those Toaplan titles since they were somehow unvolved with it.

While the SNES isn't the best system for shmups, I wanted to point out, that despite it's limations, it does have some shmups worth getting, even if it's only a few. IMO, Axelay, Space Megaforce/Super Aleste, Pop 'n Twinbee, Gradius III (though it really is a love it or hate it game becuase of the slowdown), and probably R-Type III are reasons alone to go shmupping on the SNES. However, shmups were definatly not the system's forte.

I don't want to debate with you over that Genesis RPG thing, but Shining Force and Phantasy Star II and very sweet IMO (though I admit that, while I still like Shining Force, I didn't like it as much after playing the second GBA Fire Emblem, which also happens to be the first US Fire Emblem).

Please read my eariler post in this topic. I listed the PCE/TG-16 as my favorite system for classic shmups and I honestly do think it beats the SNES both in terms of arcade and console ports. The PCE/TG-16 also has a fine updated version of Xevious. Also, just becuase I like the PCE/TG-16 the best for shmups, doesn't mean I don't like shmups on SNES, Genesis, PS2, PSX, Saturn, Atari 2600, or any other system. To be honest I almost voted for MSX, but so many of the earlier games run a bit choppy (despite being extremely good) and it's a computer, not a console.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:59 am

Huh, BrianC... what I meant was: PS2 wins among actual systems (Cube / Box).

OF COURSE PS2 doesn't win against the Snes, or the Famicom for that matter. 8/16 bit systems just have too many exclusives / dedicated shmups, so really the comparison is unfair

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I thought this to be obvious.

Reiki · Post by **Reiki** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:02 am

After playing Robo Aleste and Lords Of Thunder I'd be inclined to say the Sega CD was the best console for SHMUPS, but then I'd be discounting all the cool PCE and Genesis SHMUPS then.

So PCE, and Genesis I guess.