Milestone release 'Karous' - Arcade 2006 / Dreamcast 2007

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:32 pm

Ceph wrote:
nem wrote:Superb

Thanks Ceph!
You are welcome. I didn't initially plan to buy Karous, but for €38 including shipping it's hard to resist, so I just ordered it. Besides, there are not many new shmups coming out in the months ahead.

Offer expires in 1 hour and 27 minutes...

We need more people in the high-score thread!

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:19 pm

Kiken wrote:We need more people in the high-score thread!

I want to get a less crappy score first.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:48 pm

Arrgh, I couldn't resist. I am so freakin' broke now...

Tigershark · Post by **Tigershark** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:47 am

Edge (printed in the UK) just gave this game a 6/10. A bit mean really. What does irritate me is that they chose to review this rather than THE which imo is a far better game all around.

It also confirmed that Exeal was on NAOMI and that it would almost certainly get a DC release (sort of). So pah to all those who said no GD ROMs anymore.

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:42 am

For me 6/10 is even a bit forgiving, but well, since I didn't like Radilgy at all it might just be me.

And by the way, I knew that GD-Roms were not produced anymore (and noone got the rights to do that, I assume?) so what about new games on the DC? Should we give one of our games back to them and they'll print their game on our used GD à là Last Hope?

My DreamPassport is ready

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:04 am

I keep meaning to post some impressions on both this and Exelica, but by this point, I probably wouldn't be saying anything new. I will say one thing, though, and it's a minor spoiler for anyone that hasn't seen the middle of stage three:

I pretty much laughed out loud when I saw the name of the mid-boss! "Phatbowie-Slim"? I used to listen to "that new Fatboy sound" a couple of years ago, and that was a completely unexpected reference. I'm guessing that Mr. Hayashi or Mr. Nagata had listened as well.

End spoiler.

I like Karous a lot, it has a sort of "liquid" feel to me. The same summery feeling that I had when listening to the first track from the soundtrack that MileStone released previously, I get with the whole game. It's really neat. I'm sure that there will be a time this summer when the sky is dark with rainclouds, and I'm in the mellow mood playing the game, and it'll go perfectly with everything. (The stage three track is also amazing in my opinion!)

Additionally, I find that in terms of fun, it's right up there with Exelica. I've not gotten terribly far into either game, but the enjoyable and slightly addicting nature of upgrading and using different weapons, batting at powerups, and taking out clear waves of enemies of Karous gives the capturing, shielding, throwing and locking-on of Exelica a run for its money.

They're distinctly different, and hopefully that means that a good amount of people will find something to like in one or the other. I'm certainly happy to be able to play both.

Tigershark wrote:It also confirmed that Exeal was on NAOMI and that it would almost certainly get a DC release (sort of). So pah to all those who said no GD ROMs anymore.

I'd gladly take 70 pahs to the face if Exzeal made it to DC.

I'm not even sure if NAOMI games are getting GD-ROMs anymore, but we'll see, when Exzeal finishes location tests and goes into full operation.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:29 pm

Tigershark wrote:It also confirmed that Exeal was on NAOMI and that it would almost certainly get a DC release (sort of). So pah to all those who said no GD ROMs anymore.

NAOMI Cart.

The new Dynamite Deka game is being released in cart form and chances are that Exzeal will follow suit.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:59 pm

Kiken wrote:
Tigershark wrote:It also confirmed that Exeal was on NAOMI and that it would almost certainly get a DC release (sort of). So pah to all those who said no GD ROMs anymore.
NAOMI Cart.

The new Dynamite Deka game is being released in cart form and chances are that Exzeal will follow suit.

Still, would this mean a port is more difficult?
Weren´t there other Naomi carts that have been ported to the DC? (

)

I still have hopes for Exzeal and to a lesser extend even Dynamite Deka EX making it to the Dreamcast.
If Sega can earn money by pressing the GD-Roms I can´t see why they couldn´t make a new final pressing...

Next year is the 10th anniversary of the Dreamcast and it sure would make a great goodbye gift from Sega to get DD EX for the DC (I love part 2 on the DC). Going out with a Sega game would certainly be an appropriate end of the DC and Segas last own gaming platform.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:08 pm

Super Laydock wrote: Still, would this mean a port is more difficult?
Weren´t there other Naomi carts that have been ported to the DC? ( )

No. It means that it won't get a DC port since there aren't any GD-ROMs to print said port on. Unless they decide to make some hella-expensive DC cart that plugs in through the modem port or something.
And yes.. there were numerous NAOMI carts that received DC ports.

Super Laydock wrote: I still have hopes for Exzeal and to a lesser extend even Dynamite Deka EX making it to the Dreamcast.
If Sega can earn money by pressing the GD-Roms I can´t see why they couldn´t make a new final pressing...

I think it's safe to say that at this point, Sega really aren't making money on pressing GD-ROMs. The costs of keeping the production facilities most likely out-weighs any possible earned profit from software sales.

Super Laydock wrote: Next year is the 10th anniversary of the Dreamcast and it sure would make a great goodbye gift from Sega to get DD EX for the DC (I love part 2 on the DC). Going out with a Sega game would certainly be an appropriate end of the DC and Segas last own gaming platform.

Yes.. it is true that next year marks the DC's 10th Anniversary.. and yes, I too have heard the rumour about Sega's proposed one-final-no-really-we-totally-promise-and-stuff last DC game release to celebrate that (said game being DD EX). However, it seems a much safer bet to assume that they'll do a PS2 port.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:15 pm

Kiken wrote:Yes.. it is true that next year marks the DC's 10th Anniversary.. and yes, I too have heard the rumour about Sega's proposed one-final-no-really-we-totally-promise-and-stuff last DC game release to celebrate that (said game being DD EX). However, it seems a much safer bet to assume that they'll do a PS2 port.

Or GC if the talks with O3 go as planned. But more likely they might still put it out on DC, as shmup support has been relatively strong for the console.

Tigershark · Post by **Tigershark** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:04 pm

How strong has it been? Any figures? I'd be interested to know whether the shmup producers actually made any money on their DC releases.

eretsua · Post by **eretsua** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:36 pm

Tigershark wrote:How strong has it been? Any figures? I'd be interested to know whether the shmup producers actually made any money on their DC releases.

i don't have any hard figures but i've seen the figure 10,000 mentioned around this board a couple of times as the sale number for either triggerheart excelica or karous.

don't think the shmup market is a huge market by any means though i don't think current publishers are making a loss at it either. i would be surprised actually if milestone didn't make any money of off the karous port as it has no extra features what so ever.

i do also think that the halted GD-rom production equals the end of (new) dreamcast games. oh well, all good things must come to an end, i guess... and the dc certainly had nice life and a wonderful after-life.

eretsua

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:46 pm

eretsua wrote:i don't have any hard figures but i've seen the figure 10,000 mentioned around this board a couple of times as the sale number for either triggerheart excelica or karous.

First week sales were:

10,000 pieces sold for THE.
2000 pieces for Karous (which was most likely limited to a 4000 piece pressing like Radirgy).

sfried wrote:Or GC if the talks with O3 go as planned. But more likely they might still put it out on DC, as shmup support has been relatively strong for the console.

What are you talking about? DD EX or Karous? DD EX is not going to be farmed out to O3. Sega are perfectly capable of distributing that themselves on whatever they choose to port it to.

As for Karous, a GameCube port has to happen before O3 can do anything. That is completely up to MileStone, who at this point, haven't said anything about porting Karous elsewhere (not saying they won't, mind you).

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:58 pm

eretsua wrote:
Tigershark wrote:How strong has it been? Any figures? I'd be interested to know whether the shmup producers actually made any money on their DC releases.
i don't have any hard figures but i've seen the figure 10,000 mentioned around this board a couple of times as the sale number for either triggerheart excelica or karous.

Famitsu reported of 12,881 copies of Trigger Heart Exelica being sold until the 25th of February (it was released on the 22th). Not bad, eh!?

Karous is said to have a quite limited print though. First day sales were around 2,000 for that one on a rumored print of 3,000 copies.

You can be sure that Warashi and Milestone made money on this too.
Whether it was much is another story...

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:44 pm

Super Laydock wrote: Famitsu reported of 12,881 copies of Trigger Heart Exelica being sold until the 25th of February (it was released on the 22th). Not bad, eh!?

Karous is said to have a quite limited print though. First day sales were around 2,000 for that one on a rumored print of 3,000 copies.

I doubt that the print run of Karous was that small...
You can still buy new copies at most online import stores like ncsx and play-asia. If that number were correct, shouldn't it be sold out by now?

The limited edition of Exelica on the other hand is sold out almost everywhere (I noticed that play-asia got some more a few days ago).

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:42 pm

Ceph wrote:I doubt that the print run of Karous was that small...
You can still buy new copies at most online import stores like ncsx and play-asia. If that number were correct, shouldn't it be sold out by now?

Radirgy had a 4000 piece print run and took over a year to sell through. Mile-Stone's games just aren't in high demand. They don't do very well at game centers either.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:30 am

P-A took its time to get this to me, but I have received it...guess what time it is? It's uber-late first impressions that no one cares about time!

First off, as I said after watching the videos, I dig the game's overall style...the visuals, music, and theme "come together" very well, and make for a more "focused-feeling" experience than the oddball Radirgy, imo. It retains the "subliminal messages" between stages for some weird reason though...is it my imagination, or did one of them show a guy flipping me off?

In terms of gameplay, it feels a bit like Radirgy crossed over with RSG's weapon levelling, though this time it's as simple as using something a lot, with no chaining to worry about, making it less intimidating. I still feel a lot of the "juggle the meters" gameplay left over, as you still need to keep an eye on both your shield meter and your weapon levels (basically the replacement for the multiplier): perhaps most notably out of everything, I was pleasantly surprised that the Loads o' Gray "color" scheme wasn't nearly as much of a visibility issue as I'd feared it would be, since most of the bullets are relatively large, and many "spin" or do something else to catch your attention...I still wouldn't have minded the option for brighter-colored ones though, ugly or not.

Otherwise, the game feels more memory-oriented than Radirgy did...I find that there are certain spots (mainly boss patterns), even in the earlier stages, which pretty much require you to have your shield or a barrier ready, as maneuvering your awkward-looking character (I'm having some trouble pinpointing the hitbox) through super-tight patterns, wherein you, the bullets, and the BG are all gray, is extremely difficult, at least for me. Easy mode is indeed one of shmupdom's bigger cakewalks (one of the few "first try 1CCs" I have to my name); on Normal, after two or three tries, the stage 3 boss is my current "wall." Only tried a bit of Hard. The high score thing is really bothering me though...seriously, if the game doesn't save high scores, and doesn't use play time to unlock credits or the like, what the heck did they bother adding in an auto-save for? Something's really weird here...

Anyways, that's about all I can think to say after my first session with the game, for whatever it's worth...will probably be blabbing more soon.

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:45 am

BulletMagnet wrote:It's uber-late first impressions that no one cares about time!

Thanks for posting your impressions, I appreciated them.

It does seem like it's been a long time since release, but really, it's only something like a... month and a half. Okay, that's a while, but not everyone had pre-orders in.

I agree with you on the theme; I think that I mentioned that I haven't played Radirgy, but the way that everything comes together in Karous does seem appealing. Also, I did hear that a guy flips you the bird at one point, so you're probably right.

I'm not that far into the game, but I think that I know what you mean about the memorization. My current hard spot is the stage two boss, when it does that "whoosh whoosh!" attack with both... er... arms. I can't make sense of those bullets yet, so I fly up and periodically swoop down to get a few slices and shots in. I know that I have to work on my weapon levels a bit more though, too, so we'll see how it goes.

BulletMagnet wrote:(I'm having some trouble pinpointing the hitbox)

There's a hitbox?

I have a hard time "keeping an eye" on it as well, although it might be easier when the DFS is ready. The way that the shield works really throws me off for figuring out where the hitbox is.

The save feature does seem odd. This release did come out pretty quickly, if you believe the GD-ROM situation then one could say that it came out just in the nick of time. Maybe they simply didn't have time for anything other than a basic arcade port... I don't keep my memory card in after the "Shikigami no Shiro II" incident that I had a few years back, though, but having to wait for the ranking screen in order to quickly jot down scores can be challenging. I can't complain, though.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:09 am

icepick wrote:I'm not that far into the game, but I think that I know what you mean about the memorization. My current hard spot is the stage two boss, when it does that "whoosh whoosh!" attack with both... er... arms. I can't make sense of those bullets yet, so I fly up and periodically swoop down to get a few slices and shots in. I know that I have to work on my weapon levels a bit more though, too, so we'll see how it goes.

You can see in Kiken's videos how to deal with that attack. When he does the attack, plough through the bullets using shield. About halfway through, activate the barrier to add the delicious bullets to your experience meter. The barrier will stay activated just long enough to enable you to catch the bullets of the next swoosh attack, while you are slashing at the boss with your sword. When the barrier wears off, move backwards using shot. By the time you reach the bottom of the screen, you should have your barrier refilled and be ready to repeat the process.

Speaking more generally about the game, I like it and I enjoy playing it, but I do think that Radirgy is a better game overall. The weapon levelling in Karous annoys me almost as much as in RSG, as you just have to get certain weapons up to certain levels in time or you are pretty much screwed. This encourages boss milking, which I despise. Additionally, in Radirgy there was a nice flow later in the game, as an advanced player you could connect the barrier uses seamlessly. This kind of rush doesn't seem to be reproduceable in Karous. It requires to be played more strategically and is far more memorization-heavy.

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:57 am

Thanks for the help!

I hadn't watched Kiken's video, but I'll try to work out the technique that you described, especially since you took the time to present it. I knew that my method for dealing with the attack was really not the way that it should have been, but what you say does sound kind of obvious in retrospect. I'll try to remember, "Bullets are my friends, lots of bullets are good, I've played Psyvariar..."

Someone mentioned to me that I should get Radirgy instead of Karous, when I was talking about pre-ordering. I do think that I would've been happy with either, but Karous seemed to go well with the sort of vibe that I had at the time. They both seem like summery games, though.

MileStone's fourth anniversary of foundation is coming up on Sunday, I think.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:14 pm

BulletMagnet wrote: (I'm having some trouble pinpointing the hitbox)

The high score thing is really bothering me though...seriously, if the game doesn't save high scores, and doesn't use play time to unlock credits or the like, what the heck did they bother adding in an auto-save for? Something's really weird here...

Ok, the hitbox actually does stand out. If you look at the Karous model, it's mainly black and grey, except for one portion in the center of the back, which is white (it kinda looks like a barrel). That's the hitbox.

The fact the game doesn't save high-scores has been listed as a glitch. The save file on the VMU says Config and Highscore save. Sadly, only the config side actually gets saved. Chalk this up to a rush job release I guess. :/

And they still need to release the OST!

Herr Schatten wrote: The weapon levelling in Karous annoys me almost as much as in RSG, as you just have to get certain weapons up to certain levels in time or you are pretty much screwed. This encourages boss milking, which I despise.

I'm not crazy about boss milking either... however, seeing as just about all of the bosses have relatively short time-limits before they time-out, this helps balance things (really, the only boss that can be milked like crazy is the stage 2 boss).

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:18 pm

Herr Schatten wrote:When he does the attack, plough through the bullets using shield.

At this point I'm still trying to make myself trust the shield...at the second boss I did try making a "leap of faith" through the "swoosh swoosh" attack (since I found it nearly impossible to dodge through, I figured I might as well try the shield), and most of the time it seems to work, but every once in awhile something manages to tag me, and I'm not sure if it's something minuscule that I'm doing wrong or if it's just random.

Speaking more generally about the game, I like it and I enjoy playing it, but I do think that Radirgy is a better game overall.

Obviously I need more time for this judgement on my end...Radirgy managed to sneak its way onto the bottom of my Top 25 in the last vote, though as I said there are some things about Karous that I like better and other things that I don't like as much as I did in Radirgy. I haven't gotten far enough into the game (I think) to see what you're talking about as far as "be up to level x or just give up", but I do honestly find "keeping up with the Joneses" in Karous far easier than in RSG, as the main thing you need to figure out is how to kill everything (in no particular order), and then gradually figure out how to milk for some extra levels at certain points. More on that coming...

Ok, the hitbox actually does stand out. If you look at the Karous model, it's mainly black and grey, except for one portion in the center of the back, which is white (it kinda looks like a barrel). That's the hitbox.

Thanks, I'll have to keep an eye out for it...funny, as usually I don't have much trouble picking out differently-colored hitboxes when they're present. Ah well, least I know it's there.

The fact the game doesn't save high-scores has been listed as a glitch. The save file on the VMU says Config and Highscore save. Sadly, only the config side actually gets saved. Chalk this up to a rush job release I guess. :/

Can you say "Karous v1.5?"

And they still need to release the OST!

Yeah, a lot of people here seem to like it...I do to, in general. I'm not a huge techno (or VG music, for that matter) fan, but I can't recall having heard many other shmup soundtracks that sound too similar to this one...that alone makes it at least notable, if nothing else.

I'm not crazy about boss milking either... however, seeing as just about all of the bosses have relatively short time-limits before they time-out, this helps balance things (really, the only boss that can be milked like crazy is the stage 2 boss).

This is more or less how I feel on this one: I'm not big on milking, but when it's limited by a boss timer or the like (a la Giga Wing) I don't mind the option to score a bit extra...speaking of which, I didn't notice a boss timer in this, which would have been nice to have. Guess boss endurance is one more thing to memorize, as such.

Btw, how do you (or someone else) feel about a full-blown ST, Kiken?

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Wed May 02, 2007 1:44 pm

A revised full replay of Hard Mode that I captured is now available on Super-Play.

eretsua · Post by **eretsua** » Wed May 02, 2007 3:42 pm

Kiken wrote:A revised full replay of Hard Mode that I captured is now available on Super-Play
.

sweet!

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:47 am

Wii port
Link

Although judging by the URL, these morons shouldn't be trusted. How can a 3 month old game be a classic?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:58 am

GaijinPunch wrote:How can a 3 month old game be a classic?

Probably because their definition of "classic" is either a) "Notable," as in "last DC game," or b) "Old-style," as most any shmup is (to most modern gamers, anyways).

Anyways, looks like the rumors are true...does this mean that those who bought Milestone's shooters on the DC will have gotten burned by cheaper, better-executed Nintendo-system ports all 3 times?

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:24 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:Anyways, looks like the rumors are true...does this mean that those who bought Milestone's shooters on the DC will have gotten burned by cheaper, better-executed Nintendo-system ports all 3 times?

I don't think anyone who purchased the DC versions of any of MileStone's games got burned by their later inferior ports. It's like you're trying to arguing that the PS2 version of Mushihime-sama is better than the PCB because it includes Arrange Mode. You could probably get away with debating that it's the better value... but it certainly isn't the better game.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:26 pm

Well, yeah, it's not a huge snub, I guess, but still, the GC version of Chaos Field not only added the new mode but fixed the slowdown and score saving issues that the DC version had...and was a lot cheaper. I haven't played the GC Radirgy yet, but if memory serves it adds a new mode without losing anything the DC port had, and will again be cheaper (but no phone card, onoz!

). If tradition continues, the Wii Karous will likely improve on the DC port's annoyances as well.

Granted, this doesn't mean that the DC ports aren't worth playing, but it does seem kind of annoying that those who are most determined to support Milestone's efforts from the get-go end up with the least-polished versions of their games. Though I guess that's what tends to happen in many cases.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Thu May 17, 2007 5:16 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:Well, yeah, it's not a huge snub, I guess, but still, the GC version of Chaos Field not only added the new mode but fixed the slowdown and score saving issues that the DC version had...and was a lot cheaper. I haven't played the GC Radirgy yet, but if memory serves it adds a new mode without losing anything the DC port had, and will again be cheaper (but no phone card, onoz! ). If tradition continues, the Wii Karous will likely improve on the DC port's annoyances as well.

Granted, this doesn't mean that the DC ports aren't worth playing, but it does seem kind of annoying that those who are most determined to support Milestone's efforts from the get-go end up with the least-polished versions of their games. Though I guess that's what tends to happen in many cases.

I've never seen the arbitrary removal of slowdown as beneficial (once again, see the PS2 port of Mushihime-sama and/or Ibara). Secondly, I've always found the play control in the GC ports of MileStone's games to be much looser than the perfect control in their DC versions. And really, the additional modes aren't all that great.

Now, I do agree with the stupidity over the high-score saving in the DC ports... but it's such a minor problem that anyone who is literate can circumvent this with a pencil and a piece of paper.

As for supporting MileStone first.. we get a damn-near 100% arcade accurate port months ahead of everyone else (plus with direct VGA compatibility). Additional modes are always welcome, but I'm more concerned with the base game. So I would happily toss out additional modes in exchange for the most accurate representation of the game possible (if any of us could magically delete the Arrange Mode in the PS2 port of Mushihime-sama in exchange for the spontaneous recoding of the arcade mode on the disc by Arika, the vast majority here would be clamoring to become the next fucking Harry Potter).

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu May 17, 2007 5:58 pm

Kiken wrote:I've never seen the arbitrary removal of slowdown as beneficial (once again, see the PS2 port of Mushihime-sama and/or Ibara).

I guess it depends on what you define as "arbitrary"...I haven't played the arcade versions of any of the 3 games, but especially in Chaos Field's case the slowdown is almost constant, even early on, especially if you play for score and lock on to lots of things. I'm not super-picky about slowdown, but tons upon tons of it, arcade-accurate or not, tend to get my attention...a "wait" option would have been the best of both worlds, I suppose.

Secondly, I've always found the play control in the GC ports of MileStone's games to be much looser than the perfect control in their DC versions.

I'd have to put more time into the two ports of CF to make any sort of competent response to this, but offhand I wonder if this is less the fault of the port than the GC controller (which, for the record, I absolutely loathe), and whether a well-made third-party controller or the like would help to alleviate that.

And really, the additional modes aren't all that great.

Nothing to write home about, but when everything from the original is included and the price tag is lower, they're nice for a change of pace, if nothing else.

So I would happily toss out additional modes in exchange for the most accurate representation of the game possible

I agree to a point, though I might exchange the words "most accurate" for "best-executed," since I'm not the sort to believe that the arcade version of a game is automatically the "best" one in every case. Of course, "best-executed" is very much open to interpretation (offhand, you're the only one I've heard complain about loose controls in the GC ports of any of these games), which is why I tend not to get involved in discussions like this too often, heh heh.

In any event, as I said I'm not totally dissing the DC ports of these games, seeing as I own all 3...however, some of the minutiae that they didn't bother to address in them strikes me as putting out a bit of a rush job for their most loyal supporters, which, while it doesn't swear me off them forever (Radirgy made my Top 25, for whatever that's worth), still irks me some.