Do you use turbo/auto buttons? Are they cheating?

[PC Engine Fan X!]

When I used to play the Romstar version of Hyper Dyne Sidearms jamma conversion kit running on a Dynamo upright cab at the local hamburger joint back in the Spring of 1988, upon picking up the full auto-fire option power-up (I've noticed that it's much faster than most games that do provide auto-fire, indeed, like Video System's Turbo Force/Hyper Force PCB).

I'd use the full auto-fire power-up on my first life & reach to the final showdown/confrontation of the end-game Bozon mechanized worm boss but it'd end being a 2CC affair to bring it down for good. My average scores for Sidearms would be in the 1.5 million+ range easily on the Top 5 high score list but it'd reset back to default high scores every time the power was cut to said Dynamo cab. Score resets were expected and considered the norm during the golden age of arcades (unless you had access to a full-sized VHS camcorder to videotape your arcade shmup sessions as verifiable proof or a Polaroid Instamatic camera to back up the bragging rights).

It wasn't considered cheating back in those days of arcade shmup lore -- it sure saved a lot of wear 'n' tear on my fingers/wrists back in those days.

It wasn't until Turbo Force/Hyper Force PCB made it's initial debut in the American arcades back in the early 1990s, did it grace the arcade shmupper with auto-fire capability from the get-go (without the need to pick up a power-up icon at the start of a session) + 3-player co-op from the get-go/join-in at any time capability were considered groundbreaking & novel ideas/concepts at the time when it was released in arcades worldwide. I had the rare golden opportunity to join in on a 3-player co-op session of Turbo Force at the Regency Game Palace arcade in Modesto, CA back in the day -- quite memorable, indeed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Eaglet]

mashing buttons is stupid and unfun.

There is a reason that most shooters developed mid 90's and onwards have sensible AF rates or the effect of AF taken out all together.

The best system is when you can set the rate inside of the game itself a'la Batrider.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

three fingers on the button at once, yessir, now you're cooking with ripple!

I suppose you could have 3 or so keys in MAME dedicated to the same fire button now that I think about it...

[MathU]

I generally don't use turbo buttons because it usually does feel like cheating. The vast majority of games with manual shooting simply weren't designed to require it. For those rare games that genuinely seems like they do almost require autofire to be enjoyable because their base firing rates are just so limp, such as Gun Frontier (?!), for the most part I just don't even bother with them. However, I have pre-judged a number of games in the past to require autofire, only to give them a fair chance without it later and realize they are balanced perfectly fine without it. I could very well be wrong about Gun Frontier as well. I've been wrong enough times now that I have a difficult time just assuming these types of games even exist.

I think perhaps it helps that I don't usually play arcade games with a controller. I play them with an arcade-like setup (my keyboard ) where I can mash easily with two or three fingers and some twitching. I can understand if people feel like they need autofire playing certain games on a controller because it does take a bit more effort to mash with your thumb and when you need to grip something firmly in your hands at the same time.

Also mashing buttons can often be fun in itself. According to the developer, it's the reason Cho Ren Sha 68K doesn't have complete autofire for instance. And it's definitely part of the fun in a game like Lethal Thunder/Thunder Blaster. I find there to be a very interesting dynamic going on in Darius Gaiden where you can mash to kill things a bit faster during moments where you're confident you can dodge something and it increases the adrenaline rush during otherwise slow parts to keep the experience interesting.

... if an otherwise good game is critically monged without tapping (eg Darius Gaiden).

But that's wrong.

[KAI]

Playing shmups with turbo is like playing fighting games with macros.

[Eaglet]

Ehm, no?
Having an auto-dodge function in a shooter would be the equivalent of a fighting macro.

[d0s]

Unless the game is a shooting watch I don't think it's cheating, particularly in FC Star Force/Star Soldier which were practically made to sell Joycards. I think I remember Tehkan's original arcade Star Force having autofire, which Hudson actually removed for their FC port.

[BIL]

But that's wrong.

To clarify, by "tapping" I mean using the default shot rate with occasional mashing, not balls-out 30hz autofire that kills bosses before they're dead.

Unless the game is a shooting watch I don't think it's cheating, particularly in FC Star Force/Star Soldier which were practically made to sell Joycards. I think I remember Tehkan's original arcade Star Force having autofire, which Hudson actually removed for their FC port.

Master Takahashi is right there in Star Soldier's FC instruction pamphlet hawking his own-brand autofire controllers, bahaha. Fuck that grass skirt-wearing troglodyte, seriously.

[MathU]

Derp, my bad. I read that as you saying the game was broken if you did try to play it normally.

[rjosal]

I play Raiden without autofire on a cab. For any other input mechanism I would use a reasonable frequency autofire.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I can understand if people feel like they need autofire playing certain games on a controller because it does take a bit more effort to mash with your thumb and when you need to grip something firmly in your hands at the same time.

With at least PSX/PS2 stock controllers (and CCP), mashing on R2 with one's index finger feels way better than mashing on any face button with your thumb.

[SMC]

Not that I would know from personal experience but isn't autofire generally considered fair game in Japanese arcades? It might invalidate a few records if it isn't.

[ACSeraph]

Autofire is never cheating in shooting games. Use it if you want to, it makes some games more interesting and other games less interesting, but it's your call.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

tap tap tap

Fuck that shit.

Amen. In a game where it's expected you'll be firing most of the time, there's no reason not to have autofire, not to mention who wants repetitive injuries from tapping a button through something like a 2 loop game? Good shmups are about shooting, scoring, and dodging, not some endurance event where you test your finger's stamina because of a bad game mechanic.

Besides, I think it's really, really stupid when I'm playing a game with a fighter plane equipped with machine guns that requires me to tap over and over like a pistol.

I also don't bother with autofire if the game only requires slow-moderate tapping, like in Cho Ren Sha 68K, rather than tapping for every single shot you fire.

Chorensha 68k is not one of those games. The more powered up you are, the slower you can tap and get the max firing rate, but at low power you have to tap pretty quickly. Giga Wing is a much better example of a game with a very low tap rate for max firing rate (and the Dreamcast port has a rapid shot IIRC).

I refuse to vote on this poll because it's missing the most obvious option: - No, because mashing buttons is stupid and unfun.

This was my immediate thought as well.

[pegboy]

It definitely destroys the challenge of some games, that's for sure. That said, tapping it's a shit "mechanic" to begin with, and games that don't have autofire built in are poorly designed.

[royalfan84]

It's a very broad question; at times auto-fire is necessary and the game is created with it in mind for certain types\modes or all modes of play. At other times it is not. It's not really an issue IF the score results for these games are very specific when it comes to leaderboards- otherwise what's the point? A game like Darius Gaiden for me is more fun for survival with button tapping fire...I would feel like I was cheating a little going for survival with auto....I just find it more enjoyable and in DG it feels how it was designed survival-wise. Scoring wise....just depends on the game and leaderboards. Raiden Fighters doesn't feel cheap with auto fire. Many games (DDP series, Mars Matrix)- have different shot types that pretty much require auto in the design. So...it just depends on the game really and what you may or not be bragging about.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Games that require button tapping are fairly icky as is, but it's truly embarrassing when games don't put an upper limit on the firing rate. In cases like that, it can get pretty ridiculous. Even without the possibility of autofire breaking the game, if button mashing allows you to fire 5 times more bullets than normal, that's just bad design. Making a weapon with a massive power disparity between its minimum and maximum damage entirely based on finger tapping speed is just begging for the game to be broken.

[NTSC-J]

I've never understood this debate. "Cheating" implies doing something your opponents aren't, but if everyone uses autofire it isn't cheating. The Japanese arcade scene has always separated autofire ON/OFF scores for games where there's the slightest difference, just as you would with different game modes or ship types. Darius Gaiden truthers seem to get especially bent out of shape over this.

[Jeneki]

Another funny example is Sky Soldiers (arcade 1988). The first boss is intentionally programmed to screw over high rates of autofire. If you tap slowly you can kill it in one pass at maybe ten seconds, but with high levels of autofire it takes around twenty passes and becomes this drawn out several minute long endurance match.

[OmKol]

Depends on game. In some games external autofire will make pointless powerups which give you autofire (examples - Silkworm, secret autofire powerup in Star Soldier).

[Blade]

Playing shmups with turbo is like playing fighting games with macros.

As someone who has no choice but to play console versions of games on d-pad instead of spending a fortune on cabs and joysticks... there is no sin in using Macros on pad.

Especially macros the game already provides.

Macros and Turbo on emulators aren't exactly "cheating" either, since the cheating began when someone decided to emulate/port the game from its native hardware.

So then you ask yourself "To what extent am I willing to cheat?"

I'm not busting my hands or controls on Millia Rage or Chun Li types who force the player to mash. That goes for Shmups especially, since your enemy might as well be using Turbo against you with all the curtain fire you face in some games!

[MathU]

Chorensha 68k is not one of those games. The more powered up you are, the slower you can tap and get the max firing rate, but at low power you have to tap pretty quickly.

Where are you getting this? The required tapping rate for highest firing rate in Cho Ren Sha 68K isn't any different between power levels.

"Cheating" implies doing something your opponents aren't, but if everyone uses autofire it isn't cheating.

That's only as it applies to a competition. Cheating more generally implies subverting a game in some manner. If everyone uses the same cheats then sure, the competition turns into a slightly separate metagame from the video game itself, and doing that agreed-upon thing is not against the rules of the metagame. But it's just silly to not be able to admit that it's still cheating within the video game.

The Japanese arcade scene has always separated autofire ON/OFF scores for games where there's the slightest difference, just as you would with different game modes or ship types. Darius Gaiden truthers seem to get especially bent out of shape over this.

That's indeed a good rule of thumb, but it sure is odd that we never seem to hear about any of these autofire OFF scores then. And bent out of shape that the Japanese arcade scene is doing the right thing by separating autofire on and off scores? This is first I've heard of such a reaction.

... Millia Rage ... who force the player to mash.

I play Guilty Gear pretty heavily and I am really puzzled at what you mean by this.

[Jeneki]

it sure is odd that we never seem to hear about any of these autofire OFF scores then.

Thr highscore forum here usually has a field for autofire on/off, if it matters in that specific game. See the highscore topics for many of the games discussed in this topic. (Kyukyoku Tiger II, Zed Blade, Darius Gaiden, Gun Frontier, etc)

[LordHypnos]

Although a lot of people have already said similar stuff, I'd say that I usually like not using autofire so long as the game gives you a decently high rate of fire. CAVE games for example, I usually like just using the A button instead of also the C because it makes it easier to switch between focus shot and unfocused. I find it a little easier to deal with 2 buttons instead of 3.
Cho Ren Sha is right at the borderline of requiring too fast of tapping, so I've started using auto with it generally. Also there's really no benefit to using a tap system because holding the button down doesn't do anything.
in DC Mars Matrix, I use autofire on the piercing cannon for the first few levels b/c that's how I learned them, but being able to rapidly switch to shield is useful enough that I learned stages 5 and 6 with no auto. Never have used the auto on the normal shot because it has a pretty generous rate of fire, the added lag, and also like being able to easily switch to shield.
Psikyo games are kind of an interesting category. I usually use auto (preferably on a shoulder button), but I like being able to charge seamlessly. They don't give you quite a high enough rate of fire that it's as much of a no brainer as something like Takumi or CAVE games.

[Ed Oscuro]

One good thing that came from button mashing games fitted with aftermarket AF circuits: Point-blanking designs.

[CStarFlare]

Whether something is cheating depends on the rules of whatever group you're playing with - auto fire is cool with us and Arcadia, but others may reject it. The rules for competitive play are aet by the group you're competing with.

[Captain]

I honestly think that bland, ridiculously fast manual fire shouldn't be part of a shmup.

I'm a big fan of different firing type weapons, for example one for holding, one for tapping, one for rapid fire (I know some of you just thought of certain games, hehe).

Getting actual bonuses in firepower based on how fast you shoot however, is pretty silly. Manually firing is good but only if it reaches it's full potential without finger breaking action, aka you slightly mash it and have optimal fire rate.

As such I use autofire for any game that I think would be more fun (but not necessarily easier) with it.

I have actually made a .exe file in autohotkey that autofires Z if you hold A, and works for most stuff.

[rjosal]

CAVE games for example, I usually like just using the A button instead of also the C because it makes it easier to switch between focus shot and unfocused. I find it a little easier to deal with 2 buttons instead of 3.

Maybe not the definition of easier, but I'm pretty sure using C allows you to switch to laser faster than waiting for the game to detect you've held A long enough. If you're holding C and then start holding A it should be instant laser.

[Bananamatic]

CAVE games for example, I usually like just using the A button instead of also the C because it makes it easier to switch between focus shot and unfocused. I find it a little easier to deal with 2 buttons instead of 3.

Maybe not the definition of easier, but I'm pretty sure using C allows you to switch to laser faster than waiting for the game to detect you've held A long enough. If you're holding C and then start holding A it should be instant laser.

In Ketsui the C button allows you to control the amount of shot burst you release, with A there is a minimal amount which is quite large (and i believe most cave shmups work like that)
it's pretty damn important for scoring

[Hagane]

I'm not busting my hands or controls on Millia Rage or Chun Li types who force the player to mash. That goes for Shmups especially, since your enemy might as well be using Turbo against you with all the curtain fire you face in some games!

Macros (and of course I refer to premade combinations that enable to do complex combos with the press of a button, not binding 3P and 3K for example) and turbo in fighting games are definitely cheating and people like you make online playing a worse experience. Execution barriers are integral to the genre and removing them breaks them, enabling things that are not possible otherwise, like Honda being able to do Hundred Hands Slaps out of nowhere and characters being able to do perfect SPDs that are much faster to execute than normal. Also autofire sends lots of garbage inputs that lag the game online.

If you don't care how to properly execute Chun's and Honda's mashing attacks (there are ways to perform them well without busting your hands, by the way) or whatever, play some other character instead of ruining the game for your opponent, please.

On topic, high autofire breaks some older games, and alters the way they are meant to be played. In those cases, it's definitely cheating. Otherwise using autofire is just fine, since there's not much of a skill associated in mashing shot in STGs as opposed to fighting games, that require precise timing for button presses.