What is the point of playing gimped arcade ports?

[pegboy]

I'm not talking about stuff like Gradius III (SNES) or Raiden Trad, which are essentially different games and not advertising themselves as true arcade ports. I'm referring to stuff like the Strikers 1945, DoDonpachi, Thunder Force AC, Raiden Project, etc. These are mainly ports on the PS1/Saturn era consoles that are supposedly striving to recreate the arcade game perfectly on a home console.

While these ports claim to be or are often advertised as being "arcade perfect", most of them have tons of problems, many of the changes I find to be completely idiotic and unnecessary. Yet I continue to see people asking about these ports and playing them instead of just playing these games in MAME, where the emulation is nearly perfect. So what's the point? Most of these ports have criminally incompetent changes, like increased hitboxes, different scoring, lowered difficulty, etc, all of which seems to have been changed for absolutely no reason.

Here is just a small list of games I have grievances with:

Strikers 1945 II (PS1/Saturn) - Hitboxes are not comparable with the arcade, the ports have larger hitboxes than the arcade version and some ships have different hitboxes than others. Why change the hitbox of all things?

Thunder Force AC (Saturn) - Scoring was changed, enemies give different point values, some of which are massive differences compared to the arcade version, I'd estimate the difference at ~100K over the course of the game for equivalent playthroughs. They also idiotically made it possible to counterstop the game on the stage 4 boss (not possible in arcade version). Sound and music all sounds much worse too, although that is more of an annoyance than something that straight up breaks the game.

Raiden Project (PS1) - At least for the first game the difficulty is nothing like the arcade version, they dumbed it down quite a bit even though they claim it to be arcade perfect. Pretty sure the sound effects are all terrible in this one too. Don't really know if they changed the second game from the arcade version because I haven't played it nearly as much.

DoDonpachi (PS1/Saturn) - I'm just going to link PROMETHEUS' post on some of the idiotic changes made: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 88#p707688

[Kollision]

just don't mix the tables and everybody will be happy I guess?

[Vludi]

Because it's still fun i guess, not everyone is really interested in the competitive scene and prefer to play them more casually, being easier maybe is a good thing in games like Parodius Da or Raiden Project (and they have difficulty settings anyway). As long as there are split tables i don't see the problem.

[EmperorIng]

With Strikers, since it is like so many other Psikyo ports, I assume that Psikyo themselves might have changed the game. Original 1 is advertised ingame and in the manual as having rebalanced/tweaked difficulty from the arcade original, though I don't know if those changes carry over into the Saturn's TATE mode.

[pegboy]

With Strikers, since it is like so many other Psikyo ports, I assume that Psikyo themselves might have changed the game. Original 1 is advertised ingame and in the manual as having rebalanced/tweaked difficulty from the arcade original, though I don't know if those changes carry over into the Saturn's TATE mode.

I'm actually referring to the tate/arcade mode of the Japanese PS1/SAT version, not original 1 mode.

[pegboy]

Because it's still fun i guess, not everyone is really interested in the competitive scene and prefer to play them more casually, being easier maybe is a good thing in games like Parodius Da or Raiden Project (and they have difficulty settings anyway). As long as there are split tables i don't see the problem.

I agree that splitting the tables solves most of the issues for the scoreboards, but I still don't see the point of playing versions that have been "tweaked" in ways that make no sense and almost universally make the game worse.

[jepjepjep]

It would be nice to make a list of good ports vs gimped ports. Some games like Batsugun on Saturn seem to be very good.

If there's a good port, I prefer to play it on console over mame because of input lag.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I like genuine "~240p" on RGB CRT every now and then, easily done with SCART-endowed TVs, whereas even computer CRTs fed 240p signal typically draw each line twice (although on a 19'' screen, true scanlines in 640x480 look defined enough for my liking, computer CRT is not something I keep on my desk all the time anymore).
Also, with Castle Shikigami 2 US, which I was told isn't 100% faithful a port either, you get THAT translation and THOSE voices.

[pegboy]

It would be nice to make a list of good ports vs gimped ports. Some games like Batsugun on Saturn seem to be very good.

If there's a good port, I prefer to play it on console over mame because of input lag.

That is definitely a legit reason. However, MAME does support adaptive V-sync rates which should reduce and/or eliminate most of those issues for people with PCs that support it.

[jepjepjep]

I wish there was an idiot-proof mame distribution, because every time I try it I end up with various shades of jerky scrolling, tearing, and noticeable input lag (compared to a good console port or pcb).

[Harpuia]

I wish there was an idiot-proof mame distribution, because every time I try it I end up with various shades of jerky scrolling, tearing, and noticeable input lag (compared to a good console port or pcb).

Shmupmame v4.2 works pretty well in my experience. Even without Vsync games run nice and smooth with very little screen tearing. It is based on an older version of MAME though, so you won't be able to play games that were just recently added like Raiden II.

[trap15]

Instead you just get ground sprites shifting around and stuff being unaligned. Or if you're playing an Irem game you get disappearing and fucked up sprites. So good, guys.

[pegboy]

Instead you just get ground sprites shifting around and stuff being unaligned. Or if you're playing an Irem game you get disappearing and fucked up sprites. So good, guys.

Is that just for ShmupMAME?

[Harpuia]

Could you provide some specific examples of things like that happening? I've been using shmupmame for a while and haven't experienced any issues.

[trap15]

Is that just for ShmupMAME?

Any MAME with "lagless" hacks has the shifting stuff, not sure about the Irem fuckery but probably those too.

Could you provide some specific examples of things like that happening? I've been using shmupmame for a while and haven't experienced any issues.

Kyuukyoku Tiger is very obvious about the shifting IMO, but nearly any game with sprites aligned to a background has the issue. Undercover Cops in the second stage with the water pipe spewing water causes huge sprite drop-out.

[TransatlanticFoe]

If it bothers you, don't play them. Just because it's different in some way, doesn't make it terrible or worthless.

At what point must you only play the arcade version anyway?

[BIL]

With supreme arrogance imma quote myself three years prior, when I had less cash (but more hair ;-; )

I like console ports on 32-bit systems onward for the simplicity of switching on a console and getting the same facsimile of the PCB everyone else with the disc is playing, running as intended. I can overlook stuff like Raiden Project's difficulty differences with the PCBs since I have no illusions of them being 1:1 to begin with - even extremely well-regarded ports like Arika's PS2 DOJ and ESPGaluda aren't technically 100% accurate. Games that run on essentially identical hardware to the arcade like STV/Saturn and Naomi/DC are the exception, I suppose, but even there I don't pretend I'm playing RSG or Border Down in the arcade.

Stuff on pre-32 bit consoles obviously won't be even in the same ballpark generally, but they can still be a lot of fun in their own right. Ports of any generation that include awesome exclusives or additions like Hyper Duel SS and Slap Fight MD need no explanation, of course.

Still feel pretty much the same. I might build a MAME cab like Ex_Mosquito's badass setup at some point. It's not like teh romz are going anywhere in the meantime, regardless.

[Harpuia]

Kyuukyoku Tiger is very obvious about the shifting IMO, but nearly any game with sprites aligned to a background has the issue. Undercover Cops in the second stage with the water pipe spewing water causes huge sprite drop-out.

Kyuukyoku Tiger (Or Twin Cobra in my case, if the region matters) seemed fine to me, but I definitely noticed the sprite issues in undercover cops. I haven't noticed any problems in the other Irem titles I've played, like the R-type games or X-Multiply.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Do a step-frame test and sprites updated sooner than backdrops are glaringly obvious. I for one don't mind it. I also hardly ever use v-sync in games whenever given a choice.

Instead you just get ground sprites shifting around and stuff being unaligned.

To be fair, it's only perceptible in background scrollers. That is - most shmups, obviously, but I found Gunbarich and Space Bomber not looking any different from not hacked.

[iconoclast]

I practice Daioujou on MAME, but I'll only play full runs on the 360 version. I'd do the same with any other game as long as the console port is reasonably accurate (even tho 360 DOJ has a major flaw). The point is to play the exact same game under the exact same conditions as everyone else. Now playing on console does have a little bit of variance because everyone has a different monitor or controller, but it's the next best thing if you don't want to buy the PCB.

[pegboy]

I practice Daioujou on MAME, but I'll only play full runs on the 360 version. I'd do the same with any other game as long as the console port is reasonably accurate (even tho 360 DOJ has a major flaw). The point is to play the exact same game under the exact same conditions as everyone else. Now playing on console does have a little bit of variance because everyone has a different monitor or controller, but it's the next best thing if you don't want to buy the PCB.

What is the major flaw in DOJ? I'm not very familiar with the DDP series beyond the first 2 games. I can;'t imagine it has anything as stupid as a larger hitbox or drastically different scoring than the arcade version?

[maximo310]

From what I've heard, DOJ on the X360 has long load times, and there's a patch you need to install for fixing bugs/ performance issues.

[iconoclast]

Yeah I don't know if any modern console port is as bad as some of the stuff from before the PS2/DC generation. On the 360 version of DOJ, the 2-4 boss is harder because it runs a little faster than what I'm used to on MAME. The rest of the game is perfectly fine, but the PS2 port is still better. You miss out on the online leaderboards but it's superior in every other way. I'm not about to hook the system up and buy a stick for one game though, so 360 it is.

[gray117]

Talking about today? ...Not much if you want the arcade game. Some if you just want a fun game. Plenty if you want the console game.

i) Those we are nostalgic for those console days will keep playing ports if they're fun - gimped vs arcade or not.
ii) If you're asking what's the point of paying new ports - it's for convenience and to help keep the properties/genres alive.
iii) Those particularly dedicated will buy and play the arcade originals.
iv) But yes if you're doing the thing of high scores/comparisions, and online leaderboards/communities you're probably mostly best off with emulation until we get some top quality ports and/or paid emulated versions.

Vague music equivalent:
i) Listen to your old LPs
ii) Keep buying merch/gig tickets
iii) Collect the LP/cd/singles/albums
iv) Listen to rip or stream it

Talking about back in the day?
Historically, we've never had the parity and overhead we generally have these days to compensate for accuracy and compatibility. In addition, no one really used to give much of a fuck, we couldn't share stuff much. 'Arcade like' experiences were a high enough bar. Arcades were still around for local leaderboards. Most of that stuff got lost when the power got turned off. Only a few crazies vhs'd themselves. Most ps1 and saturn games must be 20 years old now? ... give them a break they didn't know any better (and many people still don't).

Imho the issue is not why aren't doj ports perfect (because if you play any of them, you'll still play a good game) and if you complete any of them you're a still fundamentally good at doj... but rather why today we haven't got a new one that works perfectly across xboxone/ps4/nesica(or whatever other networked pc they're using)/pc that we all care more about? And yep imho fck sdoj, but I still bought it.

[davyK]

Arcade games are arcade games and home games are home games. An arcade game is to make you keep putting coins in, a home game isn't about that - hopefully - it's about you enjoying yourself and considering the next game the producer publishes - so I can understand why things are changed.

It would be desirable to have an arcade accurate mode but perhaps due to differences in hardware that isn't financially viable because of the time and effort that would take.

I have DDP on Saturn and on MAME and I enjoy both. I'm not good enough to notice the difference anyhow.

[OmegaFlareX]

Some console ports have added benefits like arranged sound, lower and/or adjustable difficulty, slowdown removal, etc. I tried out Toaplan Shooting Battle 1 the other day and the arranged BGM/SFX were pretty neat. Yoko mode looked awful and BizHawk lacks rotation options so I probably won't play it again. I actually somewhat prefer the PC-Engine ports of Irem games because the M72 hardware's 55hz refresh is especially jittery on a 60hz monitor.

I use ShmupMAME to play Hishouzame and Same Same, and I don't notice the sprite shifting because not having vsync on fucks the display up anyway.

[Harpuia]

I actually somewhat prefer the PC-Engine ports of Irem games because the M72 hardware's 55hz refresh is especially jittery on a 60hz monitor.

Doesn't the "throttle" option in shmupmame (at least I think it's that one) bump the game's speed up to 60hz?

[OmegaFlareX]

No, throttle just keeps the emulation speed at 100%. IIRC, to force the game to 60hz (or whatever your monitor's native refresh is), you have to enable "Sync to Monitor Refresh" and disable multi-threading. This can be a neat thing to play around with, but I don't use it because the sound is weird.

[Harpuia]

Okay, I wasn't completely sure. I have throttle turned on along with auto refresh speed and multithreading, with both of the sync options off, and everything runs pretty smooth to me.

[Despatche]

Basically, what BIL said. If you want to "play the real thing", it's a lot easier to get a console port than a PCB. Most people simply don't care about those small differences.

To actual game developers, they're the same thing as those Mega Drive and NES ports. They're usually not as drastically different, but they're still intentionally different enough to matter. They might not necessarily say "arcade perfect" on the box (though I'm willing to bet a large number of them do), but there's no denying their express purpose was to resemble the arcade game as much as physically possible but with any known warts removed, while still actually playing well within the given system's constraints.

Small changes like you list really are as simple as the particular coder/s being dissatisfied with some element or another. CAVE has done this quite a few times: the slowdown fixes applied to the US release of the 360 version of Deathsmiles (before it was patched), the removal of the infinite lives trick from the 360 version of PinkSweets, and the removal of the "supershot" from the Steam version of Mushihimesama (before it was patched). These were all intentional decisions by CAVE staff, and these are the exact same kinds of things developers used to do in the PlayStation/Saturn era. For all we know, the changed scoring in the 360 version of Guwange was intentional as well.

Another fantastic example is the PlayStation version of Raiden DX. It has a number of outright gameplay changes, simply because that's what the developers wanted; it's treated as an entirely separate game, accordingly.

Probably the greatest example of all is the 360 and Steam versions of Ikaruga. We all know that story.

You're not coming at this like a developer who isn't necessarily familiar with every single aspect of the game's execution. You're coming at this as someone who's studied a specific game for years and doesn't understand why a port would want to change anything, positive or negative. You make a big assumption about the changes necessarily being worse. Likewise, I'm not saying this is a good or bad practice.

Personally, I don't think the Mushi supershot is inherently good, and I recognize that the only reason it was patched out was because players complained hard enough. The only reason people did want it in is so they could feign competition with scores that the vast majority of whiners will never even try to reach; I'm actually surprised it was even found and the campaign was even mounted. I don't think infinite lives in PinkSweets is good either, and in addition to the above, the only reason anyone thinks it's an okay mechanic just by itself is because of how insane PS is.

For Raiden, the sound effects appear to be the same, but the music was changed. That particular change is more interesting than anything else, really.

At the end of the day, as long as there is some relatively easy way to play any given version of the game, it really shouldn't matter.

Instead you just get ground sprites shifting around and stuff being unaligned. Or if you're playing an Irem game you get disappearing and fucked up sprites. So good, guys.

You also get games that aren't painfully laggy to the point where they're basically unplayable unless you put in x10 the usual effort. Unless you can do better, legitimately better, ShmupMAME is and should always be here to stay. It's not like ShmupMAME is the actual official MAME build itself, it's just a spinoff.