I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

I agree that the bullet visibility sucks. Whether it's a deliberate feature or not, I don't think obscuring visual readability - especially in a pure action game like this, where clarity should always be paramount - is a fun or interesting way to add challenge. The neon bullet modes added in the Shottriggers port of the game are probably the definitive way to play.

That said, although the bullet visibility issue is lame, it is workable. It is a flaw, but it's not one that diminishes the excellent design decisions made throughout the rest of the game - its brilliant stage design, bosses, strategic elements. I can appreciate being put off by the visibility, but speaking as someone who found having to adjust to it annoying and sometimes very unpleasant, there's enough good in the game to make that adjustment period worth it.
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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That's why sane people play Garegga 2: Ibara instead.
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To Far Away Times
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

Post by To Far Away Times »

Sir Ilpalazzo wrote:I agree that the bullet visibility sucks. Whether it's a deliberate feature or not, I don't think obscuring visual readability - especially in a pure action game like this, where clarity should always be paramount - is a fun or interesting way to add challenge. The neon bullet modes added in the Shottriggers port of the game are probably the definitive way to play.

That said, although the bullet visibility issue is lame, it is workable. It is a flaw, but it's not one that diminishes the excellent design decisions made throughout the rest of the game - its brilliant stage design, bosses, strategic elements. I can appreciate being put off by the visibility, but speaking as someone who found having to adjust to it annoying and sometimes very unpleasant, there's enough good in the game to make that adjustment period worth it.
I think of it like a movie or TV show that is filmed way too dark, and with lots of black crush. It may be partially intentional, but the execution is sloppy and makes the finished product so much worse. We've all suffered through it atleast a few times. (That infamous Game of Thrones season 8 battle, anyone?) If you watch something like The Batman, that is how you do low visibility filming. Compositions are clear, light sources are well thought out, and your eyes are drawn to what you were intended to see. Garegga reminds me more or the sloppy kind of intentional. Our shmup example of low visibility done right would be Wriggle Nightbug in Touhou who makes you "blind" by obscuring your vision for except a small circle around your character. Its meant to scare the player, but the bullet speed is reduced to compensate for your reduced reaction time. It ends up being a cool gimmick.
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Some-Mist
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

Post by Some-Mist »

Rastan78 wrote:@scoularis, have you ever played the actual PCB running on a cab or CRT? Having owned it myself I'd say you're blowing the issue out of proportion. It feels very playable.

If the Garegga PCB running on CRT feels like shit then so would most modern console ports from M2 on Switch or PS4. There could also be something about your setup causing additional lag. Like maybe the games you think are 2 frames are really 4 frames for example on your monitor and controller of choice. So the extra lag in Garegga pushes over the threshold of good playability. Feels like 5 frames on your undisclosed setup does not equal 5 frames on real hardware.
inclined to agree. as someone who notices input lag between my different arcade sticks/controllers and monitor setups and either gets annoyed or adjusts to it (I did take the time to get used to it and loop muchi muchi pork and nabbing a decent leaderboard score on a horribly laggy hdtv when most of my stuff was in storage :lol:), nothing has really bugged me about playing garegga on my pcb or via my mame setup. Granted I haven't spent as much time with it as other games (around 100 hours max split between both platforms) but it hasn't been something that I had to adjust to nor thrown me off.

I would guess there has to be something within the setup causing more lag than is natively present whether it's the controller, monitor or combination of other factors. I also rarely mess with performance settings within MAME with the super rare exception of SH3 games w/ blitter rates so I would just make sure you haven't adjusted a setting that you might be overlooking.
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Lander
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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velo wrote:I confess I don't get why rank seems to be such a popular feature in shmups (for developers and maybe for players as well). It usually doesn't even seem to work the way the developers wanted it to.
Further to Rastan's point, I once saw someone refer to good action game design as 'improvisation within a framework'; i.e. a set of clear rules that the player can learn and master, but with enough variability that success at a high level doesn't boil down to executing a memorized set of known-succesful instructions.

Rank is one way of encoding that variability, and is interesting since it lives somewhere between the uncontrollable dice-rolling of true randomness and the repeatable consistency of if-then-else determinism. On the one hand, it's a non-abstract measuable number than will cause thing X to happen on frame N of game state S if equal to a certain value; on the other, so many little things contribute to the counter that it becomes impractical for a human player to track and control on a digit-by-digit basis.

Instead, the practical degree of control is one order greater; it can be manipulated on a macro level with knowledgeable play, but forces the player to successfully deal with perceptually-random micro level events in order to exert that control. The density and danger of those micro-level events are governed by the macro-level overall rank, thus creating a feed-forward probability control system.

Having dabbled a bit in probability stuff where you chain together sources of uncertainty to exert control over a nondeterministic domain (ex. particle systems that need a specific density distribution while remaining random), seeing it applied to a game's difficulty system in an elegant way is an amazing piece of engineering. It doesn't necessarily jive with my own determinism-first views on game design, but I respect the hell out of it and can't deny that the moment-to-moment uncertainty makes for a real edge-of-your-seat gameplay experience that plays nicely to the game's themes.

And on some level, I think dynamic difficulty in general is just one of those things that's both divisive, and unsolved in the general sense. There are examples both strong and weak in STGs (R-Type Final 2 adding unnecessary variability to a series that thrives on memo, for example), but it goes beyond that to games like RE4 where the dynamic item and enemy balance is beloved by some and reviled by others.
KAI wrote:That's why sane people play Garegga 2: Ibara instead.
OHOHOHO
FUFUFUFU

This post was made by the Ibara gang.

And speaking of themes, Ibara's whole Step On Me Ojou Sama subtext has to be some kind of treatise on Yagawa building his games to punish players :lol:
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Lethe
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

Post by Lethe »

The big advantage to the "framework" philosophy is that it's a kind of safety net. It offloads design micromanagement by introducing robustness. The developers don't need to rely on every part of the game to be paced similarly, or even to be of consistent quality, because the player can emergently create depth by themselves by exploring the system, or make fun by showboating. The developers only need a ballpark idea of what's possible, and can then focus on communicating the big ideas while the player gets to work it out on their own (and most of the time that'll be what happens anyway, even if your design strategy is very strict). Well-executed extensibility makes the difference between bullshit, acceptable bullshit, and "legitimate" give-and-take.

In STGs, the most blatant form of these systems are in bullet interactivity: cancels, Takumi reflects, grazing. Bullets are disconnected from basic enemy characteristics like HP and less likely to fuck everything up if interfered with (the YGW style being a notable exception). The combination of these extensible game systems with RNG is very common, but sometimes you'll get games like Hellsinker which aren't very random but pile on such an ungodly amount of complexity that it has a similar effect. Of course the success of this is tied up with the handling of many other elements too, such as resource management.

Contrast this idea with gaming's recent obsession with procedural generation. The typical procgen approach operates on the assumption that the pursuit of details will justify the content, so it seeks to automate by bulk. The extensible framework assumes that if the bulk is appealing, the details will find their place on their own.
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Stan
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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KAI wrote:That's why sane people play Garegga 2: Ibara instead.

"...If I was 50k short of my best on stage 1: reset. If I dropped a medal: reset. If I missed even one scoring opportunity: reset. I played without any room for compromise, throwing credit after credit away. Before long my health and sanity began to suffer. I hit a complete wall in my progress, unable to break past the high score I’d achieved before. The only thing increasing was my anxiety…"

https://shmuplations.com/scorer6/
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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BulletMagnet wrote:
Sengoku Strider wrote:I do feel for people with vision issues that really impact the game for them, but it's clear they were going for a "chaos of war" vibe.
I'd honestly be more inclined to suspect that it was another way to shorten time at the cabinet and demand additional coins from players; Yagawa has openly stated that the game's rank system was specifically created to make it more difficult and thus more profitable without the player being aware of it, and I wouldn't put it past him (and other arcade-era developers whose games have similar "issues") to have also figured that the occasional "wait, what just killed me?" death would also contribute to the cause.
It's money first, art later.

It is a pain at times, but it's a decent experience. Pulling off things at just the right time, managing the incoming enemies and shots, weaving, laying off and generally surviving is what makes Garegga fun to play.

Naturally, the formula for a shmup has changed over time: new ideas tried out, some failed and others went on to set a standard in their own sub genre. Just how things evolve over time.

Personally, I don't have any issue with people who proclaim that denmaku Shmups are the best. They can believe that if they wish to do so, but for me, I just play what I like and I don't mind what others think.

ketsui, Garegga, ibara : they all have something.

If you enjoy it, then that's fine.

I quite like Raiden 1 and 2 but the lack of speed control got to me, sure, but I just accept it as part of the game and I learn how to work with it. Same goes for RECCA on the famicom: the blinking sprites and such are annoying at times but that's just how it is on the platform and becomes part of the experience.

Think of it like this: you meet some sexy lady, she's wearing a bikini and you notice a small blemish on her skin, could be cellulose or what not? Well, you just choose to accept it or move on - not much more you can do :lol:

I accept Garegga warts, cellulose and all and may she continue to entertain me for years to come.
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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KAI wrote:That's why sane people play Garegga 2: Ibara instead.
First time I saw ibara I fell in love immediately. I prefer it to Garegga.
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

Post by MintyTheCat »

Lander wrote:
velo wrote:I confess I don't get why rank seems to be such a popular feature in shmups (for developers and maybe for players as well). It usually doesn't even seem to work the way the developers wanted it to.
KAI wrote:That's why sane people play Garegga 2: Ibara instead.
OHOHOHO
FUFUFUFU

This post was made by the Ibara gang.

And speaking of themes, Ibara's whole Step On Me Ojou Sama subtext has to be some kind of treatise on Yagawa building his games to punish players :lol:
I quite like the whole *Femdom* approach in the game to be honest and it gives excellent license to garb up in all those kinky outfits ;) Spot on, Yagawa :)
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To Far Away Times
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

Post by To Far Away Times »

MintyTheCat wrote:
Lander wrote:
velo wrote:I confess I don't get why rank seems to be such a popular feature in shmups (for developers and maybe for players as well). It usually doesn't even seem to work the way the developers wanted it to.
KAI wrote:That's why sane people play Garegga 2: Ibara instead.
OHOHOHO
FUFUFUFU

This post was made by the Ibara gang.

And speaking of themes, Ibara's whole Step On Me Ojou Sama subtext has to be some kind of treatise on Yagawa building his games to punish players :lol:
I quite like the whole *Femdom* approach in the game to be honest and it gives excellent license to garb up in all those kinky outfits ;) Spot on, Yagawa :)
Ibara, Pink Sweets and Muchi Muchi Pork are some of the ugliest looking games out there. Can't stand the art style.
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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Image Image Image
Image Image Image

Yeah man, WTF.
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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To Far Away Times wrote:
MintyTheCat wrote:
Lander wrote:
OHOHOHO
FUFUFUFU

This post was made by the Ibara gang.

And speaking of themes, Ibara's whole Step On Me Ojou Sama subtext has to be some kind of treatise on Yagawa building his games to punish players :lol:
I quite like the whole *Femdom* approach in the game to be honest and it gives excellent license to garb up in all those kinky outfits ;) Spot on, Yagawa :)
Ibara, Pink Sweets and Muchi Muchi Pork are some of the ugliest looking games out there. Can't stand the art style.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion : I disagree: I like the art style of ibara.

Plenty of other games for you to play that you may like the look of though - best of luck.
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Lander
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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Another reason to love Garegga's highly systematic design: Sometimes it'll do something weird that you've never seen and can't explain.

I was playing stage 2 / plateau today on a fairly average fresh-reset golden bat run, and the tanks that roll over buildings after the castle did something odd - their turrets blew off as per usual, but their main hitboxes were inactive. When they rolled up on the destructible buildings, they would pitch up and stay that way - in effect causing them to do a sweet invincible wheelie all the way to the edge of the playfield.

That's no bug, that's a feature 8) probably not ideal for scoring purposes, though.
MintyTheCat wrote:I quite like the whole *Femdom* approach in the game to be honest and it gives excellent license to garb up in all those kinky outfits ;) Spot on, Yagawa :)
I dig the design work, particularly the fact that it's an anime style with actual detail and texture rather than common-or-garden moeblob - though could take or leave the post-boss panty shot cheesecake. That's meandering toward the outer edge of my japanese weirdness overton window :)

Juxtapositing the brazen denizens of the rose garden against the staunchly traditional military state I find particularly interesting - ex. the pilot bios having them take issue with their foe on a philosophical level rather than the just-doing-my-job fare of your average soldier. The whole thing adds more surface area for the nine-inch-stiletto side double down on, which kink or no kink is some fine high-fidelity setting design.

I should set up VGTranslate one of these days and actually get a handle on the story text. Could be that I'm mis-ascribing high art to CAVE sauciness, but perhaps not since the translations I've seen of their other stuff have had pretty good writing as arcade action goes.
To Far Away Times wrote:Ibara, Pink Sweets and Muchi Muchi Pork are some of the ugliest looking games out there. Can't stand the art style.
I can see it for Muchi since it's an uncanny kind of cartoony-rendered, on top of the odd piggy girl idea.

And for Pink Sweets too, since it's like a toy shop detonated on top of an architecture portfolio.

But Ibara? Boo, it has elegantpunk! :P And, admittedly, a lot of industrial - I suppose growing up reading Philip Reeve's Mortal Engines novels boosted my tolerance for that quite a bit.
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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putting punk on the end of various nouns

also using 'punk' terms erronously.
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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I mean yeah, but Romanticized Early 19th Century Machinery With Wavy Bits is a right mouthful when you're already several paragraphs past the word count vanishing point.

And if we're bugbearing, it still chafes less than bookending everything with post- and -wave. Check out my post-disco smogwave mixtape bro.
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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i'm a pioneer of post-knobwave, actually.
your pfp is fucking evil btw :lol:
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Re: I think Battle Garegga has some pretty glaring issues

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Lander wrote:
MintyTheCat wrote:I quite like the whole *Femdom* approach in the game to be honest and it gives excellent license to garb up in all those kinky outfits ;) Spot on, Yagawa :)
I dig the design work, particularly the fact that it's an anime style with actual detail and texture rather than common-or-garden moeblob - though could take or leave the post-boss panty shot cheesecake. That's meandering toward the outer edge of my japanese weirdness overton window :)

Juxtapositing the brazen denizens of the rose garden against the staunchly traditional military state I find particularly interesting - ex. the pilot bios having them take issue with their foe on a philosophical level rather than the just-doing-my-job fare of your average soldier. The whole thing adds more surface area for the nine-inch-stiletto side double down on, which kink or no kink is some fine high-fidelity setting design.

I should set up VGTranslate one of these days and actually get a handle on the story text. Could be that I'm mis-ascribing high art to CAVE sauciness, but perhaps not since the translations I've seen of their other stuff have had pretty good writing as arcade action goes.
To Far Away Times wrote:Ibara, Pink Sweets and Muchi Muchi Pork are some of the ugliest looking games out there. Can't stand the art style.
I can see it for Muchi since it's an uncanny kind of cartoony-rendered, on top of the odd piggy girl idea.

And for Pink Sweets too, since it's like a toy shop detonated on top of an architecture portfolio.

But Ibara? Boo, it has elegantpunk! :P And, admittedly, a lot of industrial - I suppose growing up reading Philip Reeve's Mortal Engines novels boosted my tolerance for that quite a bit.
I got my hands on the manga a few years ago but I haven't looked at it as yet.

It certainly has that industrial, rusty aesthetic going on.
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