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 Post subject: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:34 pm 


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Being new to Shmups Ive been wondering what games are good for newer players to learn for eventually doing their first 1cc. Some of the Shmups I'm currently into are Flying Shark/Sky Shark, Armed Police Bat Rider, Sorcer Striker.

I can get about half way through the 2nd stage on Flying Shark 1cc but then those u boats really stack up and get me, have not got patterns down yet for it. The first stage is pretty easy once you learn the boss fight and little part leading up to it.

A local arcade by me has Raiden, 1942, and this neat game called Satan's Hollow with a flight stick style control.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:10 pm 


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It is best to stick with one game and learn it by playing every day.

Check out ZeroRanger, I 1CC'd/2-ALL'd it recently and from start to finish it was one of my favorite shmup experiences ever. It is on the easier side of things and has a fantastic on ramp for beginners. Playing with continues is encouraged for this game, and the game will make it obvious when you should switch to playing for a 2-ALL.
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:34 pm 


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Same advice: stick to one game and watch yourself grow.

If you're liking Flying Shark, I'd just keep going with it. Great game, rock solid fundamentals, rewards practice, classic design. Good shit.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:49 pm 


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Yup, as above. Pick a shmup you enjoy and just keep at it.

Some shmups I started out with and helped me improve (I'd still consider myself on the beginner for what it's worth). My sig also contains links to some difficulty ratings on this forum. I find it useful when planning what to play.

Vert:
Blue Revolver (Normal is excellent for learning imo)
Zeroranger (not that easy, but a helluva lot of fun!)
Batsugun Special
Crimzon Clover Novice

Hori:
Dariusburst AC (only three levels but multiple routes / difficulties to choose from)
Neko Navy (cute!)
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Last edited by BurlyHeart on Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:17 am 


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I don't think games from Raizing are novice-friendly at all. Armed Police Batrider is very hard even on the normal mode, and it's insanely full of secrets that make the game harder if you have no idea of what's going on... and you won't if you don't read some kind of guide.

I mean, just resetting the game or FIRING TOO MUCH makes the game harder.

I honestly think Armed Police Batrider is the best arcade shmup I've ever played, and I think its criminal so many people will never play it because it was never released on any home system. But it's anything but beginner friendly.

With that said, the "Pick one game and stick with it" tip is the best you can get. Flying Shark isn't that easy either, but at least it isn't filled with cryptic stuff... you get what you see and you'll learn the game with practice instead of "Why the fuck is this boss much harder than when I played the game yesterday ?!?!" like with Batrider :P . It's a great game though, and I second jehu, it will give you some good gripes with the fundamentals of the genre.
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:57 am 



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Yes, keep playing Hishouzame. I'm not sure how they made that game so perfect, but they did and it is absolutely a beautiful game. If not for the weird slowdown on stage 5, I would consider the game to quite literally be perfect.

If you want more Toaplan, play Out Zone, the Mega Drive version of Same! Same! Same!, Slap Fight, and Slap Fight MD. Kyuukyoku Tiger is definitely not an entry-level game, but Twin Cobra, or at least the first half of it before it does its weird loop-that-isn't-a-loop thing, is probably not bad for entry level.

Alternatively, Battle Garegga Rev.2016's Super Easy mode and Premium mode and also Crimzon Clover on novice are excellent. If you want to play bullet hell, Crimzon Clover on novice is probably the best entry-level bullet hell game there is, although that's probably because that's the only one I've gotten the clear on lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:47 am 


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Also seconding Darius Burst AC and Batusgun Special.
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:59 am 



Joined: 11 May 2021
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Location: Tokyo
I remembered that I forgot Eschatos, so Eschatos. I also forgot GG Aleste 3, and also the rest of the M2 ShotTriggers games that have Super Easy mode, although aside from Garegga's, the rest of them that I have played are probably too easy; don't be surprised if you no miss the Toaplan games on Super Easy the first time you play them.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:35 am 



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Danmaku Unlimited 3 has a great beginner mode. Gunvein is a new game with a good shmup basics tutorial built in


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:04 am 



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beer gas canister wrote:
Danmaku Unlimited 3 has a great beginner mode. Gunvein is a new game with a good shmup basics tutorial built in

Good shout, Gunvein 'mild' mode is fun. Espgaluda 2 novice mode on xb360 (runs well in Xenia) is good too- even I've been able to 1cc that one!


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:33 pm 


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Donttouchthedoor wrote:
Being new to Shmups Ive been wondering what games are good for newer players to learn for eventually doing their first 1cc. Some of the Shmups I'm currently into are Flying Shark/Sky Shark, Armed Police Bat Rider, Sorcer Striker.

I can get about half way through the 2nd stage on Flying Shark 1cc but then those u boats really stack up and get me, have not got patterns down yet for it. The first stage is pretty easy once you learn the boss fight and little part leading up to it.

A local arcade by me has Raiden, 1942, and this neat game called Satan's Hollow with a flight stick style control.


When I was completely new to this genre I had a couple of friends join me on the journey and looking back, these are the games most of us beat pretty fast: Psyvariar Revision, Over Horizon, Aegis Wing and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil.

Shatterhand wrote:
Armed Police Batrider is very hard even on the normal mode, and it's insanely full of secrets that make the game harder if you have no idea of what's going on... and you won't if you don't read some kind of guide.

I mean, just resetting the game or FIRING TOO MUCH makes the game harder.

I had absolutely no idea this was the case with Armed Police Batrider! :o I know difficulty can be pretty subjective but I kind of wish there was a community curated list of different titles' difficulty. It doesn't have to be like "this is the hardest and then this is the second hardest" but something with broad strokes.
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:21 pm 



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
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People give great points in this topic, but I also recommend looking around a bit and picking a shmup you like: How it looks, sounds and plays. Getting pumped up to play the game makes you come back to it, if you hate how the game looks, sounds or plays like, you probably won't enjoy playing it too many times and it quickly starts to affect your performance. This is at least my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:43 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2017
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John4300 wrote:
People give great points in this topic, but I also recommend looking around a bit and picking a shmup you like: How it looks, sounds and plays. Getting pumped up to play the game makes you come back to it, if you hate how the game looks, sounds or plays like, you probably won't enjoy playing it too many times and it quickly starts to affect your performance. This is at least my experience.

Agreed 100%. Find a game that hooks you.

Although if Raiden is the game that hooks you, that might be a source of frustration lol... I love Satan's Hollow btw. Eschatos has a similar shield.

This thread ranks arcade shmups by difficulty: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56114

Individual experiences vary but I find it's not a bad way to see if a cool-looking game is going to give you an extra hard time.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:47 am 


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velo wrote:
John4300 wrote:
People give great points in this topic, but I also recommend looking around a bit and picking a shmup you like: How it looks, sounds and plays. Getting pumped up to play the game makes you come back to it, if you hate how the game looks, sounds or plays like, you probably won't enjoy playing it too many times and it quickly starts to affect your performance. This is at least my experience.

Agreed 100%. Find a game that hooks you.

Although if Raiden is the game that hooks you, that might be a source of frustration lol... I love Satan's Hollow btw. Eschatos has a similar shield.

This thread ranks arcade shmups by difficulty: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56114

Individual experiences vary but I find it's not a bad way to see if a cool-looking game is going to give you an extra hard time.


I've referred to the list quite a bit over the years, but it definitely feels like something put together by many different people with different ideas on rankings.

There are some very questionable calls on that list:

Raiden Fighters 2 (with fairy) at a 2 contrasted with Darius Burst AC ADH Route at a 5. There is no possible way one person could play these two games and rank them like this. Darius Burst AC can be cleared on a blind run or within a few attempts. I have a friend who doesn't play shmups for 1CC's, told them it was an easy game and we should go for it, and did a 2 player 1CC in an arcade within a couple attempts. Raiden Fighters 2 takes practice and knowledge of the stages, at the very least. I doubt many people could do it on a blind run.

Thunder Force AC is at a 14? That game basically 1CC's itself when you pick up the Hunter and a shield. It's ranked harder than games like Batsugun, Metal Black, Salamander II, Shiki 2, Sonic Wings 3, Gradius II, etc.

Blazing Star, a game I beat with three days of practice, is ranked at 24 ahead of games like Dragon Blaze, Ketsui, the Strikers 1945 series, etc.
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:03 am 



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Here, try the Perikles list.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59651


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:50 am 



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I say play the 16-bit shooters. I'm not the best player myself and while I do love the Cave and Raizing games, they are above my skill level (for now) and find I can sit back and enjoy a game like Thunder Force or any of the Aleste games and comfortably get a 1cc. I HIGHLY recommend Thunder Force 3 and Super Aleste. You should be able to get a clear on either one before long and you'll learn some fundamentals. Thunder Force 4 is also a great choice, but slightly harder than 3. I'm no expert and there are some here that are certainly great players, but I disagree about new players playing Raizing games. You don't want to frustrate yourself right off the bat. Start slow and work yourself up to the harder and more complex shooters.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:47 am 


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Thanks for all the great reply's will be sure to check all these games out!


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:58 am 


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Starfighter wrote:
I kind of wish there was a community curated list of different titles' difficulty.

velo wrote:
This thread ranks arcade shmups by difficulty: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56114

There already is one...? :oops: Well then, I'm off to that thread! :)
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:30 am 



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The Perikles list is much better than the meme-tier Japanese list. According to the meme list, Same! Same! Same! 1P version with autofire and Thunder Force AC without autofire are equally difficult. Absolutely no fucking way are 1P Same! and Thunder Force AC even comparable in difficulty, with or without autofire. Even with autofire, Same! 1P should probably be near the top of any difficulty list, not down near the bottom.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:46 pm 



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Steven wrote:
The Perikles list is much better than the meme-tier Japanese list. According to the meme list, Same! Same! Same! 1P version with autofire and Thunder Force AC without autofire are equally difficult. Absolutely no fucking way are 1P Same! and Thunder Force AC even comparable in difficulty, with or without autofire. Even with autofire, Same! 1P should probably be near the top of any difficulty list, not down near the bottom.


True. Also, difficulty is relative. Some say, "yea, getting a 1cc in Ketsui isn't hard". "It took me 3 days". Or "I did a 2-all in DonDon Pachi with 2 weeks of practice." That's why I like to recommend games that most new players can enjoy and won't have too much trouble on, because some of us are not Japanese super player skill level.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:55 pm 



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Steven wrote:
The Perikles list is much better than the meme-tier Japanese list. According to the meme list, Same! Same! Same! 1P version with autofire and Thunder Force AC without autofire are equally difficult. Absolutely no fucking way are 1P Same! and Thunder Force AC even comparable in difficulty, with or without autofire. Even with autofire, Same! 1P should probably be near the top of any difficulty list, not down near the bottom.

I've beaten Zombies Ate My Neighbors and it seems unbelievable to rank it over basically every console shmup ever. Certainly Thunder Force AC is not that tough though. It's just hard enough to make you earn it but not way too easy either, for me.

To Far Away Times wrote:
Blazing Star, a game I beat with three days of practice, is ranked at 24 ahead of games like Dragon Blaze, Ketsui, the Strikers 1945 series, etc.

Perikles put Blazing Star pretty high too... maybe you're just that good!


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:07 am 


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I'm certainly no super player, but a few years back I attempted my own list. I put Blazing Star at a mid level, around the level of some of the easier CAVE clears.

I think it would be cool if more people made a list. I think seeing lists from mid level players can be pretty insightful for us mere mortals around here.

Going off Perikles (who despite the save scumming, really seemed to know his games inside and out) and the Japanese list isn't enough, I feel. If you are 2-ALLing CAVE games, every normal game is just varying shades of easy, right?
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:05 am 


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So we have three lists? Are there more? What if we... merged them? :o
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:35 am 



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One of the issues I think is that the issues with these lists (specifically japanese STG one) often get pointed out but then get lost (within multiple topics). It might not be a bad idea to just make a single topic about what people think might be an issue with a given list.

The japanese STG list does need some consolidation. I will just briefly point two or three games that I am surprised no one has pointed out (and I have seen discussion of this list fairly often in past 2 or 3 years). Since this topic seems to be linked more often now, I suppose it isn't a bad idea to point out few specific things.


(1) Dangun Feveron (without tlb) ---- on 28
I think it is higher than it should be. Especially without scoring it is not as intimidating as it seems on a first look.

Perhaps I might agree with a number of this sort if it was speed-4 or something, since controlling higher speed can be tricky. But on lower speeds it should be ranked lower I feel.

(2) Mars Matrix ---- on 25
(3) Gunbird-2 (1 loop) ---- on 24
Both seem slightly higher (only slightly though). This is considering that Ketsui 1-All is ranked on 21, which I feel is slightly more difficult for than these games (or maybe just around the same level).

It should be mentioned though that I am assuming access to auto-fire for piercing weapon in mars matrix (not sure how much the difficulty increases without it). And of course I am only talking about purely survival play here (and also assuming access to save states or practice modes).

I am also assuming access to save states or some other practice mode for gunbird-2 for example. That's because, I feel, the difficulty of a game like this is more if one is playing full runs only. There are lot of rhythm patterns in the game (or the patterns where it is important to "know" what to do). Save state like practice helps a lot there for an easier time with 1-loop clear.

(4a) Under Defeat (1 loop) ---- on 15
(4b) Under Defeat (2 loop) ---- on 23
Both of the numbers seem off by a wide margin.


============================


Regarding Perikles list, I don't have much 1CCs on that list to comment. However, I should probably mention that the MD of Air Buster on 24 seems slightly high. It is a pretty forgiving game on default difficulty. The control on stage-4 and stage-5 do require getting used to a bit though. The arcade version seems to be ranked on 17-th which seems OK. I do agree that arcade version is probably an easier 1CC because of there are large number of extra lives (and a huge dip in rank upon death).


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:46 pm 



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The Perikles list is far from complete; it's missing some notable titles, like Garegga, Soukyuugurentai, I think all of the CAVE 2-ALLs, Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga, regular Daioujou, Saidaioujou, and there are some things that I don't really agree with, like Kaitai Daisensou being that low.

Additionally, it assumes autofire, and games like Vimana are apparently completely broken by 30Hz autofire, as Vimana was clearly never intended to be played that way. The only time I have played Vimana was on a cabinet that did not have autofire and it handed me my ass in very short order. Firing manually sucks in most instances and basically nobody plays anything without autofire for that exact reason, but still...

I'd definitely be interested to see how some of those CAVE 2-ALLs compare to something like Same! 1P 2-ALL or Tatsujin Ou 2-ALL, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:24 pm 


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velo wrote:
To Far Away Times wrote:
Blazing Star, a game I beat with three days of practice, is ranked at 24 ahead of games like Dragon Blaze, Ketsui, the Strikers 1945 series, etc.

Perikles put Blazing Star pretty high too... maybe you're just that good!


Blazing Star is a weird one to place since the Dino 246 kinda breaks the game's difficulty by giving you a shield that absorbs most of the bullet types in the game. The other 5 ships don't have that luxury and will have to actually dodge.

Just as another suggestion to the OP, I say try out Shmups Skill Test (available on Steam and on the 360 as part of Shooting Love 200X). It's a collection of fun mini-games that test everything from rapid firing to dodging patterns and environments to Nice Bombing. It's not really 1CCable in a conventional sense but it offers a really nifty practicing environment for many of the genre's fundamentals. Plus playing through a single sequence only takes about 8 to 10 minutes, so it's something that can work as a quick distraction between other games.
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:49 pm 


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I've actually yet to clear Blazing Star with the Dino 246. It is on the to do list at some point.

While it obviously makes many parts easier with its R-Type like force pod, it has very weak shot power compared to the other ships and painfully slow movement speed. I found that it struggled quite a bit in the last stage and final boss, where both of those things make a big difference. I used the Dino 246 to learn the game, then had to kinda relearn it with the Pepelos (or whatever its called - the purple ship), and I found the increased firepower was a worthwhile trade off for losing the frontal shield once you know the stages well enough.
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:28 pm 


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wiNteR wrote:
One of the issues I think is that the issues with these lists (specifically japanese STG one) often get pointed out but then get lost (within multiple topics). It might not be a bad idea to just make a single topic about what people think might be an issue with a given list.

The japanese STG list does need some consolidation. I will just briefly point two or three games that I am surprised no one has pointed out (and I have seen discussion of this list fairly often in past 2 or 3 years). Since this topic seems to be linked more often now, I suppose it isn't a bad idea to point out few specific things.


(1) Dangun Feveron (without tlb) ---- on 28
I think it is higher than it should be. Especially without scoring it is not as intimidating as it seems on a first look.

Perhaps I might agree with a number of this sort if it was speed-4 or something, since controlling higher speed can be tricky. But on lower speeds it should be ranked lower I feel.

(2) Mars Matrix ---- on 25
(3) Gunbird-2 (1 loop) ---- on 24
Both seem slightly higher (only slightly though). This is considering that Ketsui 1-All is ranked on 21, which I feel is slightly more difficult for than these games (or maybe just around the same level).

It should be mentioned though that I am assuming access to auto-fire for piercing weapon in mars matrix (not sure how much the difficulty increases without it). And of course I am only talking about purely survival play here (and also assuming access to save states or practice modes).

I am also assuming access to save states or some other practice mode for gunbird-2 for example. That's because, I feel, the difficulty of a game like this is more if one is playing full runs only. There are lot of rhythm patterns in the game (or the patterns where it is important to "know" what to do). Save state like practice helps a lot there for an easier time with 1-loop clear.

(4a) Under Defeat (1 loop) ---- on 15
(4b) Under Defeat (2 loop) ---- on 23
Both of the numbers seem off by a wide margin.


============================


Regarding Perikles list, I don't have much 1CCs on that list to comment. However, I should probably mention that the MD of Air Buster on 24 seems slightly high. It is a pretty forgiving game on default difficulty. The control on stage-4 and stage-5 do require getting used to a bit though. The arcade version seems to be ranked on 17-th which seems OK. I do agree that arcade version is probably an easier 1CC because of there are large number of extra lives (and a huge dip in rank upon death).


Do you think Under Defeat should be higher or lower?
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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:19 pm 



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Much higher in my opinion. I think it is safe to say that even a "2-1 start" clear of under defeat is harder than dangun feveron (without tlb). To be honest, I think the real argument is how does the first loop compare.

Not sure whether I should go too much into personal experience (since that isn't necessarily always the best indicator) with the games I mentioned since that would get too long. Nevertheless, when I try to rate difficulty, I keep personal experience as one factor among few others. No doubt though that it is one of the more important factors though.

Now I don't have a good idea about how high 2-all of UD would be placed [since I haven't done this one] but surely it would be higher than 2-1 start all. This is keeping in mind the endurance and consistency required for long runs. Though, I am not sure whether playing a full run from first loop gives benefit of any extra extends or not (since it has been long since I played the game).

On top of that, if I am not mistaken in re-calling this, the second loop is "mirror" of first loop? I think that might add to some further difficulty/confusion. But since I only played both of the loops separately (about couple of years apart), I can't really say how much.


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 Post subject: Re: Beginner Shmups
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:14 pm 


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You're correct. 2nd loop is mirrored and adds suicide bullets to certain enemies. The mirror part isn't all that bad, the no extra lives at all is the kicker.

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