Sick of this new trend of locking old games behind hardware

[SeeNoWeevil]

You want to play Batrider legally? Buy an Astro City Mini V (I hope you like lag)
You want to play Revenge of Death Adder legally? Buy an Astro City Mini
You want to play some TG16 shmups legally? Buy a TG16 mini (hope your controller port stays working)
You want to play Musha legally? Buy a Nintendo Switch and sign up to their terrible online service
You want to play Thunderforce III legally? Buy a Megadrive mini.. oh wait, no the Sega Ages Lineup. Nintendo Switch exclusive.
You want to play Alien vs Predator legally? Buy this big ugly-ass Capcom arcade stick
You want to play The Simpsons or the original Mortal Kombat trilogy legally? Buy this novelty Arcade 1up machine (you have room in your house for all these cabinets, right?
You want to play Robo Aleste legally? Pre-order the new Genesis Mini II. Oh, stocks are going to be severely limited outside of Japan? Cool, cool.

Do the same for the Egret Mini, the Evercade and a few more I'm forgetting. I hope you have an AV Receiver with 75 free HDMI ports.

Arcade 1up even had the absolute gaul to say they had 'freed' Marvel vs Capcom 2 because now you can buy a (limited run) $600 cabinet with the game. Yeah, really 'freed'. What an absolute crock the state of game preservation is right now. Piracy or expensive, novelty hardware with lag, bad screens and worse controllers, those are your options.

[drauch]

Arr matey, time ye avast this tomfoolery and chart these rom waters. Aye, 'tis honest work if ye want the plunder like the rest of us scallywags.

[davyK]

It has been ever thus.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

what if we release new games (or versions of games, sure), but make them exclusive to cabinets

you know who you are

[cave hermit]

Barring something like M2 ShotTriggers, where either the original devs were involved directly, or the porting team actually gave a shit, just don't even bother. You are paying some parasite wearing a suit for a license to play an inferior version of whatever game you're interested in.

Just pirate it.

[Jeneki]

Eh, I wouldn't lump Evercade in with the rest of those. It's a regular cartridge-based handheld / console depending on the model, has a decent library and is still getting support for new cartridges. Nothing that annoys my sensibilities at least.

[hamfighterx]

Uh... none of these old games are "locked" behind new hardware. The original games STILL EXIST.

You want to play Batrider, Revenge of Death Adder, AvP legally? Buy the PCB, or play it in an arcade (and good luck finding Batrider cabs outside of a few locations in Japan, so I guess worldwide availability of an Astro Mini V just makes it MORE accessible, doesn't it?)
You want to play Musha, Thunderforce III, Robo Aleste, or TG16 shmups legally? Buy the original cart/CD release.

Yes, it's great when we get a reference standard version of an old game ported by M2 with all the bells and whistles to a "modern" platform (which will eventually also be griped about as being lost on an "old" machine too, if a future system is not backwards compatible). I buy those and love them. I also like the many other quality releases on current platforms, from Hamster's work, to Live Wire, and even the Psikyo games being quite accessible to people who want them these days (despite not being absolutely flawless ports).

But it's kind of dumb to me that people would whine about getting arcade games like Batrider or Death Adder that have NEVER been ported before, just because they're one of many games on a mini-console or may have too much lag for your liking. If you don't want that, don't buy it. You can get the PCB or go play it in an arcade if you're a purist. You can emulate if you don't want to do that.

Would I prefer to play Batrider in an M2 ShotTriggers port (that I hope will continue to be playable on a Playstation 6 or Switch v3.0 several years down the road)? Sure, I would. And that may indeed show up some day, but there's only so much M2 or anyone else can do. I'm not gonna bitch about people having another way to play it if they want to do so. And it's not like most of the games you mentioned have the demand to encourage a company to make a ShotTriggers-quality port. Sega's not interested in making a quality Switch port of Revenge of Death Adder, nobody is doing a new stand-alone release of Robo Aleste.

[pablumatic]

I'm okay with Switch exclusives like the Sega Ages line. At least its a platform where you can play tons of other games old and new. Also fine with the Evercade series. Cheap enough and lots of game choices to be had. I will say locking some retro games to subscription service is bad business on the Switch.

I'm even fine with mini consoles if they aren't laggy pieces of junk. Gives the casual gamer a blast of nostalgia. Though it'd be nice if those games weren't locked to them.

Its everything else like the Arcade1Ups and the bad minis I could do without.

[hamfighterx]

Its everything else like the Arcade1Ups and the bad minis I could do without.

OK, so do without them. Arcade1Ups existing is not the reason you aren't getting a PS5 port of X-Men vs. Street Fighter (which would likely be worse than the arcade version or Saturn port anyway, once a Digital Eclipse or whoever gets their hands on it).

I get it, M2 might be able to do an extra ShotTriggers release per year if they could allocate all of their resources who work on mini consoles to those other projects. But they can't, and that's still only a tiny handful of ports from one developer. It isn't a binary choice of "either we work on a MD Mini 2, or we do a modern port of Robo-Aleste that will delight a few hundred hardcore fans". Nobody was going to make a new Robo-Aleste release in 2022, regardless of whether the MD Mini 2 was coming. The only choice prior to the mini console was to play the original CD on a 16-bit system or emulate, so now there's another choice and you're mad? Why?

If you love the original games so much and want to play them in their perfect original form, they are out there. So go play Batrider on original hardware (or MAME, or MiSTer, or whatever). And hey, then you can even avoid the bitching about "BUT THIS ADDITIONAL 3 FRAME DELAY MEANS IT ISN'T ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE IT ISN'T ARCADE PERFECT" because you're playing the original version. Complaining that some people get a new way to experience these games because they aren't the perfect enhanced port you wanted in your perfect world is just bizarre to me.

[pablumatic]

Its everything else like the Arcade1Ups and the bad minis I could do without.

OK, so do without them. Arcade1Ups existing is not the reason you aren't getting a PS5 port of X-Men vs. Street Fighter (which would likely be worse than the arcade version or Saturn port anyway, once a Digital Eclipse or whoever gets their hands on it).

I get it, M2 might be able to do an extra ShotTriggers release per year if they could allocate all of their resources who work on mini consoles to those other projects. But they can't, and that's still only a tiny handful of ports from one developer. It isn't a binary choice of "either we work on a MD Mini 2, or we do a modern port of Robo-Aleste that will delight a few hundred hardcore fans". Nobody was going to make a new Robo-Aleste release in 2022, regardless of whether the MD Mini 2 was coming. The only choice prior to the mini console was to play the original CD on a 16-bit system or emulate, so now there's another choice and you're mad? Why?

If you love the original games so much and want to play them in their perfect original form, they are out there. So go play Batrider on original hardware (or MAME, or MiSTer, or whatever). And hey, then you can even avoid the bitching about "BUT THIS ADDITIONAL 3 FRAME DELAY MEANS IT ISN'T ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE IT ISN'T ARCADE PERFECT" because you're playing the original version. Complaining that some people get a new way to experience these games because they aren't the perfect enhanced port you wanted in your perfect world is just bizarre to me.

Hang on, friend. I'm just briefly stating my opinion in this thread, not looking for an argument.

[hamfighterx]

Hang on, friend. I'm just briefly stating my opinion in this thread, not looking for an argument.

The entire premise of this thread is an argument though. It's not like you said anything especially crazy, I totally get your perspective and preferring one way or another to play old games is fine. Not trying to bash you personally or anything, you just happened to say something that I think really illustrates a key point

There is a bit of a crusade lately on this forum by people (not just you) jumping into every discussion about a mini console or similar, to talk about how much they dislike these machines. I get that some people can't tolerate the thought of playing Tatsujin with a few too many frames of input lag, and to those people, well, these products are not for you. But the complaints are now becoming broken record old, and the solution is incredibly easy: just don't play them if you don't like them, and let the people who do enjoy them have their fun. It's like a lot of people here would rather prevent others from playing the game entirely if is released in anything less than a multiplatform reference grade deluxe M2 port, and it comes off as gatekeeping nonsense.

Anyway, the topic premise that any of these pieces of hardware "lock" these games to that hardware is just absurd. Because the original games being ported STILL EXIST in their original format. An Astro City Mini V being available for purchase does not negate the existence of Batrider in its original PCB format or cause it to spontaneously combust, nor does it delete a ROM file from your hard drive.

[To Far Away Times]

My understanding is that some of these devices are considered toys for licensing purposes, which may have different licensing rights than traditional console games. I think arcade 1ups are the size they are for that reason.

Or it could be that the return on investment from porting Batrider to consoles isn't high enough, but bundle it into a $200 toy and then it makes financial sense.

[Sengoku Strider]

Uh... none of these old games are "locked" behind new hardware. The original games STILL EXIST.

This. Some of them are pricey, but they're a fuckton cooler to own than a revocable license to a ROM on Steam. My great great great grandchildren will be able to play my copy of Musha Aleste, as long as they can follow the cryptic clues left in my journal, and solve the mysterious puzzle locking my tomb. (Kids, hint: My copy of Super Aleste is better)

That said, Ratalaika was doing some great work with the Masaya stuff, I hope they're not done with old school re-releases.

[EmperorIng]

"BUT THIS ADDITIONAL 3 FRAME DELAY MEANS IT ISN'T ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE IT ISN'T ARCADE PERFECT"

you know what they say, 15 is the new 3

a lot of these retro re-releases feel sad, like they are just easily scamming us and we're all filled with regret later. I turn more and more to mame and steam ports.

[Sengoku Strider]

The one thing I will say is cool about this trend, and I wonder if it at all plays into their motivation to take this road, is that it makes Sega a console manufacturer again.

[Steven]

Honestly, I don't think there is a true substitute for playing arcade games at a real arcade. Nothing like paying 100 yen for each credit to play on the actual PCB on a monitor that is probably not calibrated correctly/has color issues/has the giant-ass Raiden DX logo or the Neo Geo LEVEL-4 CREDIT 00 burned in/probably all of the above, not being able to hear the game over the din of the arcade, not having the autofire speed you want, maybe not having autofire at all, the horrible tobacco smell, and the ringing in your ears once you leave because it's really fucking loud in there~

[Sima Tuna]

Barring something like M2 ShotTriggers, where either the original devs were involved directly, or the porting team actually gave a shit, just don't even bother. You are paying some parasite wearing a suit for a license to play an inferior version of whatever game you're interested in.

Just pirate it.

Most of the time, they're straight-up selling you a rom dump. The only reason to buy old games at all is just if you want to. The people who actually play old games the most are all on emulation now. It provides the best experience.

Of all the port jobs I've seen, I think the best was Thunder Force AC. Since it adds new content (ships) you can't play in the base game of either TF3 or AC. Or I guess, if you count Live A Live as a "port" (it's more of a total graphical/musical overhaul retaining the same gameplay.)

IF there was a chance the original creators of old games would get paid from supporting the re-releases, maybe I could see an argument there. But most of the time, the money is going to feed some hungry megacorporation who has no connection to the original devs. I'm curious what percentage of sales port teams like Hamster get, and how much goes to the megacorp owning the license. And if ANY of that goes to the programmers who made the game while working themselves to death.

[Steven]

Barring something like M2 ShotTriggers, where either the original devs were involved directly, or the porting team actually gave a shit, just don't even bother. You are paying some parasite wearing a suit for a license to play an inferior version of whatever game you're interested in.

Just pirate it.

Most of the time, they're straight-up selling you a rom dump. The only reason to buy old games at all is just if you want to. The people who actually play old games the most are all on emulation now. It provides the best experience.

Of all the port jobs I've seen, I think the best was Thunder Force AC. Since it adds new content (ships) you can't play in the base game of either TF3 or AC. Or I guess, if you count Live A Live as a "port" (it's more of a total graphical/musical overhaul retaining the same gameplay.)

IF there was a chance the original creators of old games would get paid from supporting the re-releases, maybe I could see an argument there. But most of the time, the money is going to feed some hungry megacorporation who has no connection to the original devs. I'm curious what percentage of sales port teams like Hamster get, and how much goes to the megacorp owning the license. And if ANY of that goes to the programmers who made the game while working themselves to death.

If you want to be technical (and correct, of course), pretty much every rerelease of something that is from the 90s or earlier runs in software emulation and isn't actually ported anyway. The only actual ports that I can think of are the Cotton X68000 port in Cotton Reboot! and apparently also Judgement Silversword and Cardinal Sins, which were actually ported by M-Kai/Qute from WonderSwan to 360 instead of running on emulation, and I imagine the Windows version is also an actual port and not emulation as well. Basically everything else is running in software emulation, including ACA and probably also M2 ShotTriggers. That Thunder Force AC on Switch is almost certainly just an emulated ROM hack, but a very good one.

Still, M2 does good work, and I'm more than happy to give Yuge, Uemura, and Iwabuchi my money for all of the Toaplan rereleases. I'm very glad that those guys are the guys getting money for those games they made and genuinely care about and not some random shady-ass company like PixelHeart or someone who puts out products ranging from questionable to garbage most of the time like Shitty Connection, although even they are supposedly getting better from what I've heard about their Deathsmiles.

[SeeNoWeevil]

Uh... none of these old games are "locked" behind new hardware. The original games STILL EXIST.

You want to play Batrider, Revenge of Death Adder, AvP legally? Buy the PCB, or play it in an arcade (and good luck finding Batrider cabs outside of a few locations in Japan, so I guess worldwide availability of an Astro Mini V just makes it MORE accessible, doesn't it?)
You want to play Musha, Thunderforce III, Robo Aleste, or TG16 shmups legally? Buy the original cart/CD release.

How is this any kind of argument? Buy a PCB, the original hardware or play it in an arcade? How are any of those desireable?? Why would I be happy that the only way to legally play these games is with any of those? My problem isn't that these mini consoles exist (I have a bunch of them), my problem is that somehow we've ended up in a situation where it seems the only profitable way to release old games is bundled with some cheap hardware/gimmick. My dude, how many HDMI ports do you think people have on their TVs? People complain about basic ports of old games, I just want to play the damn game. Why is, I want to play old games without having to buy new hardware OR resorting to piracy such a contentious complaint? You seem to have completely missed the point.

[Steven]

I actually do not have any TVs with HDMI at all. Do I win something?

Anyway, playing at an arcade is fucking awesome, even if it smells bad and you can't hear anything, as is playing on PCB or on real hardware. You should try it. Alternatively, go buy ROMs on Steam or some shit and then run them on a ROM-loading cartridge or just use BlastEm or whatever, or learn how to hack all of those mini consoles you bought and pull the ROMs off and then put them on the MiSTer or MAME or whatever and call it good. You can pull the ROMs from the PCBs, too, for that matter, if you know how to do it, so maybe ask a friend who has a nice PCB collection if you can dump that shit so you can legally obtain the ROMs without paying for the PCBs themselves. I don't know how to do that stuff, so don't ask me how, but it is possible, so I'll let you figure it out because I'm too lazy~

Or, since by your own admission all you care about is being able to play the damn games, just steal that shit because nobody cares. Except the M2/Toaplan/Tatsujin games. Don't steal those. Those guys are awesome and they deserve the money.

Your own argument doesn't even work because what happens when the PS5 or whatever you have that is newest gets phased out and they stop making games for it in favour of the PS6 or whatever, or when your CPU/GPU officially becomes super ancient and is no longer supported by newer games, even if they are rereleases of newer games? You'll have to buy new hardware anyway. That's how technology works.

[SeeNoWeevil]

Alternatively, go buy ROMs on Steam or some shit and then run them on a ROM-loading cartridge or just use BlastEm or whatever, or learn how to hack all of those mini consoles you bought and pull the ROMs off and then put them on the MiSTer or MAME or whatever and call it good.

Already done this, several haven't been hacked yet though. It's a pain in the ass. I play on PC, a PC port will last a looooooong time. Hell, a lot of the time the ROMs are easily accessible.

[Steven]

Alternatively, go buy ROMs on Steam or some shit and then run them on a ROM-loading cartridge or just use BlastEm or whatever, or learn how to hack all of those mini consoles you bought and pull the ROMs off and then put them on the MiSTer or MAME or whatever and call it good.

Already done this, several haven't been hacked yet though. It's a pain in the ass. I play on PC, a PC port will last a looooooong time. Hell, a lot of the time the ROMs are easily accessible.

Alright, so now learn how to code or whatever if you don't already and hack the unhacked ones and there you go~

[SeeNoWeevil]

Alternatively, go buy ROMs on Steam or some shit and then run them on a ROM-loading cartridge or just use BlastEm or whatever, or learn how to hack all of those mini consoles you bought and pull the ROMs off and then put them on the MiSTer or MAME or whatever and call it good.

Already done this, several haven't been hacked yet though. It's a pain in the ass. I play on PC, a PC port will last a looooooong time. Hell, a lot of the time the ROMs are easily accessible.

Alright, so now learn how to code or whatever if you don't already and hack the unhacked ones and there you go~

lol, I may as well code up my own port of Batrider at this rate.

"Playing old games legally is a pain in the ass"

Just do all these things!;
list of things that are all a pain in the ass

[Steven]

lol, I may as well code up my own port of Batrider at this rate.

"Playing old games legally is a pain in the ass"

Just do all these things!;
list of things that are all a pain in the ass

Just remember that the only thing stopping you from dumping those games is yourself~

All you have to do is to remember the words of the awesome text thingy at the bottom of the Japanese Sonic 1 box art. Live and learn~

Spoiler

[SeeNoWeevil]

lol, I may as well code up my own port of Batrider at this rate.

"Playing old games legally is a pain in the ass"

Just do all these things!;
list of things that are all a pain in the ass

Just remember that the only thing stopping you from dumping those games is yourself~

All you have to do is to remember the words of the awesome text thingy at the bottom of the Japanese Sonic 1 box art. Live and learn~

Spoiler

I've been coding for more than 2 decades, I just wanna kick back in the evenings and play some old games without going against my principles of not ripping software off or sitting in a room full of plastic and HDMI switchers.

[heli]

Look buddy, you can download all legal at http://www.archive.org
Please take a look, thank me later.

by the way : this is specially for developpers like you, for learning-archive-encyclopedia type of thing, if you read they say.

[SeeNoWeevil]

Look buddy, you can download all legal at http://www.archive.org
Please take a look, thank me later.

by the way : this is specially for developpers like you, for learning-archive-encyclopedia type of thing, if you read they say.

It's not legal to download from archive.org unless you're another 'library'.

[heli]

No then you read to much.

[donluca]

This is one of the dumbest thread I've read for quite a while.

But at least it gave us this:

Arr matey, time ye avast this tomfoolery and chart these rom waters. Aye, 'tis honest work if ye want the plunder like the rest of us scallywags.

I think I might put this in my signature.

[Jonpachi]

I'm tempted to kick off a positivity counter thread, but most of what I would say has been said by others already.

The last 5 or so years have been one of the best times I've ever had with this genre. There was a somewhat dark period after the Xbox 360 scene died out, where we went most of the early PS4/Xbone era with very few releases of any shmups ON ANYTHING. I remember clinging to my copy of Caladrius Blaze (which I don't even really like) like some precious little gem in my PS4 collection. Now, just this week, I'm working toward a Normal Course 1CC on Batrider on my ACM-V, I have Gun & Frontier ready and waiting on the Switch, and copy of Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid in the mail, and a pre-order in for a Megadrive Mini II so I can finally play replay Robo Aleste after all these years.

And if ports and minis aren't your thing, we have the most amazing emulation we've ever had with FGPA Cores giving us the chance to truly preserve and share these classics for the ages. This is an absolute golden era, where we've seen a resurgence of interest like I haven't experienced since the Dreamcast, and channels like Shmup Junkie, STG Weekly, Electric Underground and others out there sharing the love and passion to give a voice to a community of gamers that hasn't had much of one before.

More games on more stuff is not a bad thing and is only helping prove to developers and publishers that there's a valuable audience here! Let's not forget that amidst all the ports/toys/cabs/minis we've also gotten sick new titles like Cotton Fantasy/RocknRoll, R-Type Final 2, Pocky and Rocky: Reshrined, and a wealth of great indies. These titles wouldn't exist if it weren't for the viable audience that's been proven to exist. Play what you want, how you want!