Most-Overrated Shmups of All Time Discussion

[atro_city]

I would love to hear the criteria that disqualifies Space Invaders and Galaga from being shmups. The fact that movement is only horizontal is irrelevant because the gameplay still revolves around moving, shooting, and dodging enemies/bullets. While Galaga does have a scrolling background (the starfield) it's also not relevant as it's purely cosmetic and doesn't affect gameplay. If the background has to have some level of gameplay interactivity to be considered a shmup then that disqualifies a large number of games including Touhou from being shmups.

[Sengoku Strider]

I'm not sure that Speccy STGs and the Amiga games that only a few Germans and Brits pine after in their dreams count.

See, that's it right there. People affectionately refer to it as the 'Speccy' like it was something cute, when I'm pretty sure it was a cold war psyop designed to short out the brains of colour-blind capitalist kids outside the iron curtain.



As for the Ameeger, Euro-machine extraordinaire: people forget this but the Amiga was an American computer. Commodore was a California Silicon Valley company. I didn't grow up in Europe, but I certainly knew a few kids who had one - and badly wanted one myself, because it absolutely blew the C64 & DOS-based PCs of the time out of the water. Sadly it was way out of reach.

I think the best targets for a thread like this would be games that our community continues to exalt, games that have made it into our 'Top 25' and the 'Honorable Mentions' - and preferably in recent years.

I think that makes for a way more limited and boring conversation. There's only a couple of games on that list anyone would even question. Really, to think something is overrated, one just has to think it's spoken of more fondly than it perhaps ought to be...



...which might be a very low bar in some cases.

But anyway, I'll swing my hammer into the ground and see if I hit a mine.

My targets: G-Darius and Darius Gaiden.

Why? After all, I concede the impeccable presentation. The art and music are fantastic, it's true. But the gameplay and design elements - the beating heart of our genre - are weak. There's a kind of sloppiness to the design of the bullet patterns, especially later in each of the games. The shield mechanic is designed to wave that problem away - and it does make the games playable - but the slop is still there, not far from the surface, to anyone with eyes to see it.

Actually, I can kind of get on board with this. I own the Saturn version, and there's a lot I like about it. And I'm not particularly bothered by the bullet patterns, Darius has always been doing its own thing in that regard. It's more that it takes 3-4 stages to power up your weapon, but that progress can so easily be undone. Which is one thing, but where it stings is in just how mushy & weak your weapon feels at lower levels. It just feels like the most central element of the game is lacking, which undermines everything else.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

My targets: G-Darius and Darius Gaiden.

I don't have much experience with G-Darius but I can agree with Darius Gaiden. I think Gaiden's a lot of fun and has fantastic presentation, but I agree with a lot of your points.

There's a kind of sloppiness to the design of the bullet patterns, especially later in each of the games. The shield mechanic is designed to wave that problem away

It's tricky to balance a game with a shield mechanic. I think the patterns in Gaiden are manageable and not too outrageous compared to earlier games, but it does feel at times like not taking any hits is a struggle, especially since it's a game where having a shield raised increases your hitbox size, and there's some very fast bullets.

Moreover, the stage-select mechanic is intriguing in principle, but only results in underdesigned stages with underwhelming layouts - exacerbating the slop factor. Darius wants to shovel 'content' in front of your faces, wants you to find these messy heaps of 'content' appetizing.

I think with enough time it's possible to make a game with a large number of stages that's well balanced... but it's a lot trickier in a shmup than it is in something like Outrunners Outrun 2 SP. Unlike a racing game (these both have like 30 stages) where you primarily make adjustments to turns and traffic during balancing, shmups require constant adjustments to a huge number of variables such as what resources are available where, what enemy types appear, exactly when they're coordinated to appear, enemy health, how much damage your weapons do... designing a shmup stage feels like a very complex task to do well, and so with the sheer number of stages Darius Gaiden has, I can see someone finding the individual stages less compelling than a smaller, more focused game.

And all this is to say nothing of the Gaiden autofire mess. It does not speak highly of a game that most people only find it tolerable to play only with an inhuman 30hz tapping speed.

Gaiden is a lot of fun and a great game even if it's not perfect... as long as you're playing with some level of autofire. The default shot speed from holding shoot feels very underwhelming and struggles to kill enemies in a timely fashion. It's worse when you go from the blue balls to the thin piercing lasers, which per shot appear to be weaker, making power progression very strange. However, using autofire to simulate tapping shoot at a humanly realistic speed (8.57 hz for instance) the game feels much better. 30 hz is too much and unnecessary (it melts bosses) for survival play... but the fact the game would not be defensively designed to disallow this is a definite flaw. Using 30 hz appears to be necessary at some points for scoring though, so playing the game competitively means taking advantage of 30 hz autofire.

My biggest gripe with Gaiden's shooting is the attract screen demo showcases a shooting speed that's wildly faster than is humanly possible and is far faster than simply holding shot normally. It's like 15 to 20 hz in my estimation, and there's no way to do that in game unless you're hammering shot like a madman or using external autofire. At least the Extra Version has 30 hz autofire as an actual button so you can't argue it's not legitimized ingame.

---

For me, personally:

• Ikaruga and Sine Mora are popular mainstream darlings that namedropped for credibility by reviews. Ikaruga is stylish... but it's so unforgiving and demanding that I don't see how it has any broad appeal. The revenge bullets in Normal and Hard make it especially troublesome. Sima Tuna's "Dammit, I just want to shoot shit and dodge!" describes my general dissatisfaction with the game.

• CAVE games are great and their wild popularity is a testament to their general quality, but CAVE style Shot/Laser systems are inferior to Touhou Shot/Slow button which allow you to move slowly WITHOUT firing if you want to. I much prefer how Touhou handles more responsively, and it's not as if CAVE doesn't have super snappy transitioning in some games. DFK allows you to instantly swap between shot and laser at Touhou speeds if holding rapid shot.

• Gradius V is a tremendous game and may well be my fave Gradius game... but it's got some ridiculous flaws that frankly aren't acceptable. Having to sit through multiple lengthy unskippable cutscenes sucks (the one at the beginning of Stage 2 is the most painful).

It also features analog stick movement that lets you move very slowly, similar to a Touhou style slow movement... but it's impossible to access this using digital movement on the d-pad and there's no Touhou style button to make these fine tuned movement adjustments. It could've been another great feature to modernize the game and improve it, but sadly no.

There's a lot of good in the game such as the huge number of options in the unlockable Weapon Edit, and the fact that Speed Up wraps around from Max Speed to Initial Speed, letting you freely customize your speed instead of being stuck with high speed if you make yourself too fast.

The last stage also felt like a bit of a letdown. Being a rehash of stage 2 due to the time travel gimmick simply wasn't all that exciting for me, and firmly sticking to the Gradius tradition of making the final boss die unceremoniously without effort instead of an exciting showdown was an anticlimax (the Salamander games had much better final stages).

• I like Crimzon Clover, but I don't love it, and I think it gets way too much hype. I don't like ping-ponging back and forth between two different movement speeds constantly in order to use the lock-on lasers. It's a bit disorienting for me and I always feel like my dodging is sub-par compared to other games with more traditional movement. Rolling Gunner felt like it improved on things. Doesn't have the flashy lock-on lasers but showcases a better style of double hypers (bombs are better, you can bomb cancel out of the riskier second one). RG Overpower's a sloppy-feeling arrange mode though.

[Rastan78]

As to Darius Gaiden's design, I think evaluating it in terms of intricacy of stage design and bullet patterns is to partly ignore the strengths and priorities of its design. Where the devs spent their time focusing on on intricacy and detail IMO is in the enemy types. There's a pretty absurd amount of them and many are totally unique in their movement patterns and attack method. You can also often manipulate where many enemies spawn and how they move.

Think of a beat em up. A bigger priority than memorizing stage layouts is understanding each enemy type and how it behaves so you can predict it and deal with it accordingly. Where will you lead them and which to deal with first? It's a bit more sandboxy approach to design, but once you can deal with each enemy type individually you can start adapting to dealing with them in new combinations and sequences.

I think that design approach makes more sense in a game with 26 stages. IMO 26 stages of finely tuned Irem style clockwork puzzle memorizers does not sound fun. Partly bc your skill would barely transfer between routes and you have to start memorizing each stage from scratch. Potentially tedious AF.

What I've found in DG is once you get good at one route a certain amount of skill carries over bc of the understanding of the enemy behaviors. Then you can actually ad lib quite a bit. This way approaching the game as a whole and long term mastering every route is still not unthinkable.

Won't go too much into the bosses which I think are also a much bigger priority than they are in most horis. If you play for max score you'll spend way more time on boss fights than you will in the stages. Boss fights are rarely about pure bullet pattern dodging and more about macro dodging and preemptively getting into memorized safe areas. People who believe everything should hypothetically be dodgeable on reaction in a first playthrough will likely hate the bosses in both Gaiden and G-Darius.

Re the shield, I had the same first impression that you were just supposed to tank through stuff, and the shield was sort of a band-aid in the design to get you past a bit of jank. Once I realized the actual hit box of your ship is tiny, like almost a danmaku style hit box, and I got better, that idea went out the window. It's meant to be super easy to take a hit on the shield. Otherwise the shield would be way too OP. Each hit point would essentially be an extend.

Think of the shield in Gradius (the one that looks like your ship has massive balls on the front). Of course it's going to take some hits here and there. That's what it's there for.

[velo]

I clicked for the Ikaruga and TF4 bashing... I'll just have bad taste and keep liking TF4 though. A challenging thread would be to find a game that everyone agrees is great.

Some of the old games were so advanced when they came out that they're still the gold standard for their genre. I'm thinking of mostly non-shmups as my examples, like streets of rage 2, contra nes, elevator action returns, kirby's adventure... Those rare older games that not only "hold up" but thrive compared to modern games.

SoR2, I just don't get, that's a different thread though

Nobody making a list of "the ten shmups that play the best in 2022" would put R-Type in there. Even if you love r-type, you'd put in something else from the series/dev that just plays better. X-Multiply maybe. Same goes for Gradius or Raiden. Gradius 1 didn't even have bosses, just the same boss for every level. How could that be the best gradius game, let alone the best shmup? Especially considering the many iterations upon its formula, both by Konami and other shmup devs.

system11 voters apparently think R-Type 1 has aged better than anything. Gradius 1 is pretty forgiving with checkpoints and it does have different level bosses (in addition to the core thingies). It might not be fancy but it's at least approachable.

[third_strike]

RSG

[Rastan78]

I know poor Sine Mora had been ripped to death, but I can't help posting some epic quotes from this 9.5/10 destructoid gusher: https://www.destructoid.com/reviews/review-sine-mora/

Sine Mora may be playing within an age-old genre (the shoot-em-up), but it manages to progress this entire medium as a whole. Also, Sine Mora is a game in which a legless bison blackmails a rape victim with leukemia to kill hundreds of people.

In the estimation of this critic, Sine Mora is eternal and most definitely essential.

Imagine my surprise then when I booted up Sine Mora and was floored by the story. It’s not just good; it’s not just great; it’s easily one of the strongest stories to ever grace this medium. The fantasy world built within this game is one of the richest I’ve ever encountered in any medium.

Sine Mora isn’t only of the best shmups in years, it’s one of the boldest and most fascinating games of this generation, period.

I worry that there will never be another game like Sine Mora, when I should be happy there is at least one. This is that one. And, thankfully, it’s eternal.

[mamboFoxtrot]

Outside of its initial critic honeymoon a decade ago, does anyone really mention Sine Mora anymore? That game's a weird case of being both over- and under-rated: obviously the initial critic response is way over the moon, but the general STG-community opinion of it being the absolute bottom of the barrel unforgivable eurodreck is rather excessive compared to the truth of it mostly just being middling to sub-mediocre with a few reasonably OK patches here and there.

[EmperorIng]

I know poor Sine Mora had been ripped to death, but I can't help posting some epic quotes from this 9.5/10 destructoid gusher: https://www.destructoid.com/reviews/review-sine-mora/

Isn't it amazing how much cultural cache furry rape plots had with games journalists back in the day?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I know poor Sine Mora had been ripped to death, but I can't help posting some epic quotes from this 9.5/10 destructoid gusher: https://www.destructoid.com/reviews/review-sine-mora/

I didn't think it was possible for me to hate this game even more than I already do.

the general STG-community opinion of it being the absolute bottom of the barrel unforgivable eurodreck is rather excessive compared to the truth of it mostly just being middling to sub-mediocre with a few reasonably OK patches here and there.

The thing is it's not just below average because it's a developer's first effort or foray into a shmup. The problem is it's offensively mediocre because the developer spent ages namedropping various popular shmups only to interact with the community and make a game that both showcased how poorly they understood the genre. For such a large budget game with so many names behind it to produce something so sub-par after all their hype was a tremendous disappointment.

Isn't it amazing how much cultural cache furry rape plots had with games journalists back in the day?

I threw up in my mouth a little bit.

[Ebbo]

Outside of its initial critic honeymoon a decade ago, does anyone really mention Sine Mora anymore? That game's a weird case of being both over- and under-rated

This is where I'm at. I played Switch port out of morbid curiosity for an hour or two and it's a bit of a nothingburger. Far from unplayable but also unremarkable in almost every regard, even the flashy visuals are ultimately rather dull looking. I remember someone from the dev team asking for feedback around here before the release but I'm not sure if it had much of an effect on the game's development. Could explain some of its notoriety though.

[DMC]

I know poor Sine Mora had been ripped to death, but I can't help posting some epic quotes from this 9.5/10 destructoid gusher: https://www.destructoid.com/reviews/review-sine-mora/

Another good one:

On one hand, Hungarian developer Digital Reality cited all the right influences (Einhander, Battle Geraga, R-Type

It would have been interesting to read a 10-year follow-up by the reviewer to see to what extent the opinion has changed.

Off-topic, but a famous swedish reviewer who originally gave Donkey Kong Country an almost perfect score (and called it one of the best games of all time iirc*) made a revised review years later regretting his praise. The magazine also had a "what we thought then vs now" retro section that I thought was quite fun.
Edit: FWIW, he actually gave DKC a perfect 100/100, a rating only DKC and Zelda: OoT received.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

What's the general consensus on DKC nowadays? I thought it was pretty competent, but not necessarily mind blowing. You don't have the freedom of movement options you have in other platformers, so levels feel a bit "narrower" if that makes sense, but I didn't think it was a bad game by any means.

I'd say the various games that starred Mario (Super Mario Bros 3, Super Mario World, and Donkey Kong for Game Boy) were all better platformers though.

[Searchlike]

Off-topic, but...

Spoiler

What's the general consensus on DKC nowadays?

Yeah well, Mario is the Dante of platformers in a way, not sure if it's fair to compare that clumsy ape to him. I think the general consensus is that the Retro Studios developed games are better than the Rare ones. Haven't played the newer DKC games, so who knows.

I played through DKC2 over a year ago and felt it was on a similar tier to SMW, though I don't think much of that game to be honest and greatly prefer the SFC Mario trilogy.

I once heard SMW described as a game that's more about looking for keys and secret exits than actual platforming and I kinda agree. The game has lots of gimmicks that aren't really there to make the most out of Mario's movement, but that was a problem inherited straight from SMB3 IMO. I feel like SMW and Yoshi's Island definitely had a big hand in starting the collectathon trend in platforming games.

As for DKC, well I'd say that's part of its own subgenre these days. Games like Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair, Kaze and the Wild Masks and other DKClikes have proven that that style of gameplay can remain fairly popular, even when there are so much better options around.

Just my two coins.

As a side note, I have a weird fondness for the more experimental DK platformers like Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat and Donkey Kong: Jungle Climber.

[copy-paster]

Thunder Force IV while got 10/10 soundtrack and strong art direction, the gameplay just meh. Too many gotcha enemies/attacks coming at you very fast without warning, and this happens in almost every stage ever.

[WeedyRainfall]

G-Darius is way better than darius gaiden, imo. The only thing i like about gaiden better than g is the bigass wave beam. But G has the fucking alpha beam, the counters, the bosses are way better, fire fossil is fucking awesome, it has pokemon shit, and it's just slower than gaiden enough that you can actually dodge things and plan movement

G took me about 25 hours to 1cc lambda route, and it was awesome, and i'm prob gonna learn bottom route. Gaiden took me like 2 hours to 1cc abdhlqv and it was boring you just fucking spam. I actually had to use my brain in G.

G has a better soundtrack even though gaiden has a really good one too, G soundtrack is amazing

[Angry Hina]

When its 10/10 for TFIV, then TVIII has to get at least 11/10.

Too many gotcha enemies/attacks coming at you very fast without warning, and this happens in almost every stage ever.

Doesn't this is true for most routing oriented games? I Think TFIV is much faster to learn compared to classic R-Type for instance.

[copy-paster]

in R-Type most enemies are coming not by gotcha moments, making somewhat easier to anticipate. Can't say the same with TFIV.

[Steven]

Is there going to be a Most Underrated/Overlooked/Unappreciated of All Time, as well?

[Queen Charlene]

Is there going to be a Most Underrated/Overlooked/Unappreciated of All Time, as well?

it's gonna be exactly this thread but in reverse

[Steven]

Is there going to be a Most Underrated/Overlooked/Unappreciated of All Time, as well?

it's gonna be exactly this thread but in reverse

Wouldn't that just be "The Official Thunder Force is Awesome (Especially IV) Thread"?

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

No lol. Everyone knows about TF4, even if they think its bad.

[Steven]

No lol. Everyone knows about TF4, even if they think its bad.

Yeah, that's why it wouldn't work in a list of underrated/overlooked/unappreciated games.

[Creamy Goodness]

From the little bit of TFIV that I played, my main gripe is how the levels scroll up and down. That mechanic is just way too frustrating.

[Steven]

From the little bit of TFIV that I played, my main gripe is how the levels scroll up and down. That mechanic is just way too frustrating.

Yeah, I hated that for a while when I started playing that game. Got used to it after a while. I still hate it when vertical shooters scroll horizontally.

[Austin]

From the little bit of TFIV that I played, my main gripe is how the levels scroll up and down. That mechanic is just way too frustrating.

It's not that hard. Form a strategy or route around it. For instance, on the first stage, strictly stay in the top half or stay on the bottom half.

One thing about TFIV is that it does focus around trial-and-error gameplay. I think too many expect to jump in and just have an easy time with it. Once you form some simple strategies, it's a pretty easy clear, but there are definitely hurdles to jump over when you first play it.

[Rastan78]

G took me about 25 hours to 1cc lambda route, and it was awesome, and i'm prob gonna learn bottom route. Gaiden took me like 2 hours to 1cc abdhlqv and it was boring you just fucking spam. I actually had to use my brain in G.

Yeah playing Gaiden for survival, with autofire, and not treating it like a score attack is basically pointless IMO. Unless you're just looking for a really easy clear. When you play for score there are very few sections you just want to cheese your way through, at least at higher levels of play. G Darius is kinda similar in a way where dragging out all the boss fights for a long time is part of scoring.

As far as TFIV. One of the only things that bugs me in TF games are where some levels the homing shot is way too OP. The gold battleship stage in TFIV fits that bill. You can just hold down homing sit back and relax. That and the weird hitbox interactions that mean you sometimes aren't damaging bosses when you should be.

[SPM]

As far as TFIV. One of the only things that bugs me in TF games are where some levels the homing shot is way too OP. The gold battleship stage in TFIV fits that bill. You can just hold down homing sit back and relax. That and the weird hitbox interactions that mean you sometimes aren't damaging bosses when you should be.

Imo TF IV gets better the more you play. The cheap deaths, eternal boss fights and OP homing shot (which I think are flaws to a certain extent) become irrelevant once you know the game better, reach bosses with proper weapons and can ignore homing for the most part.

The presentation make up for these during the first playthroughs, and once the gameplay gets better the presentation is still there.
(I don't think the gameplay gets spectacular by any means, but the whole package is pretty good)

The only thing I don't like about its presentation are deaths. The effects are too subtle and abrupt.
(edit: by this I meant your own death/miss, not enemies)

Ikaruga is stylish... but it's so unforgiving and demanding that I don't see how it has any broad appeal.

While it's definitely overrated by many mainstream reviewers who don't really know the game (probably just due to its presentation, distinct gimmick and popularity), I don't think the game is more o less unforgiving and demanding than many other popular shmups (or games in general)

It depends on how far you want to go. From a survival run on easy to scoring really high (on any mode) there's a difficulty for everyone. Also the scoring system is only punishing once you start going for high scores (maybe rank S upwards), like basically every game at a high level. Until that point you can ignore many chains or even break them and still recover (unlike DDP, for instance)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I don't think the game is more o less unforgiving and demanding than many other popular shmups (or games in general)

Disagree. The learning curve is much more strict than many shmups out there. You have a relatively thin shot, which requires learning precise positioning in many sections. You have no special ability or bombs which can be used for survival purposes (unless playing in Easy mode in which case unleashing your charge meter won't necessarily cause bullets to launch at you). You don't have many lives to work with unless you're scoring well.

There's many other games out there that give out extends without too much effort and have various resources to use that can be used if you're struggling with a particular section. Ikaruga is very much a memorize or die kind of game. The actual difficulty of executing a particular section once you've learned it may be comparable to another shmup perhaps, but getting to that point is less forgiving I find.

Basically, freestyling Ikaruga is tough if not impossible.

[SPM]

Idk... Ikaruga on easy is a "13" for a 1CC according to the Japanese difficulty ranking. You could shoot/release energy non-stop and stay in the same polarity as the main threat ignoring everything else, even chaining a bit the easiest parts. I'm not saying it's easy for a newcomer, but I think it's not that bad (especially if we're talking about broad appeal, because then we're talking about people playing the game, not 1CC'ing it).