shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Sat May 15, 2021 9:00 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:31 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2021
Posts: 58
Location: Sweden
Times, and tastes, change, and so does the way we play games. That's definitely the case with how I play games, and shmups in particular, seeing as how I kinda don't, opting instead for roguelikes from turn-based stuff like Slay The Spire and Into The Breach, to action-heavy stuff such as Hades and Dead Cells. But what about shmupsy type of roguelike games? My favorite type of shmups had randomally generated stuff, like Kenta Chos Parsec47, rRootage, and Noiz2sa, and choice of weapons and subweapons, like in Garden Of Colored Lights, but what about taking it one step further, with upgrades, or special missions with special weapons and conditions? Imagine for example a Un Squadron/Area 88 with different types of stages and challenges, randomized within itself, giving you a choice before each mission to choose ship, buy weapons, etc, maybe showing you beforehand what boss is on that stage, or perhaps whether you can expect more heavy ground troops, or fighters in the air. Repeating the same five stages of a dodonpachi, trying to make "the perfect run", isn't as fun as it used to be, and so mixing it up would be cool. Do you have some recommendations for me?
_________________
Videos of probably primarily PARSEC47 and noiz2sa


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 760
While it's a run n gun, not a shmup, I had a lot of fun with Nuclear Throne. Stuck with it long enough to get a few clears. Enter the Gungeon, I disliked pretty much everything about. It was in the Sine Mora play for a bit and delete category. The beginning of every run is total dead air.

With you all the way on Into the Breach. What a well designed game. I'm surprised how I just keep coming back to it from time to time.

Personally, I do still prefer the classic shmup formula as it's more about about formulating a strategy and perfecting it vs playing on the fly and adapting to random conditions.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:31 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 563
Location: Baltimore, MD
Check out Project Starship X. Haven’t played it myself as I’m not a fan of rogue-lite shooters, but it’s gotten high marks from a lot of reviewers.

Edit: And also check out Steredenn as well. It’s on every platform, even phones.


Last edited by subcons on Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:55 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2021
Posts: 58
Location: Sweden
Rastan78 wrote:
With you all the way on Into the Breach. What a well designed game. I'm surprised how I just keep coming back to it from time to time.


Having played both Banner Saga and Gods of Ash: Redemption back to back, I do come back to Into The Breach and realize just how much of a joy it is to play, as opposed to the two aforementioned games which although interesting for a while, devolve into repetition and what feels like either bruteforcing, or luck. Having that said, I would enjoy Into The Breach EVEN MORE if it had more of the roguelike elements, with more upgrades, "secret" worlds and pilots and missions, where your progress is saved across games. Then again maybe the gameplay is so tight precisely because we have so little control over upgrades and doing a bunch of crazy stuff like in say slay the spire. I guess Supergiants games, such as Hades and Transistor, are genius designs in that they can combine both tons of crazy synergies and what feels like overpowered stuff, but also further challenges and difficulty levels. Both Banner Saga and GoAR were very boring in that aspect, I mean it's quite telling that the skills you unlock when at high levels are the worst - simply plus health, and plus energy - and in general the synergies were very unsatisfactory compared to the hell yeah moments of Into The Breach - even if they basically don't "go anywhere" bur rather are clean and fun already from the get-go.
_________________
Videos of probably primarily PARSEC47 and noiz2sa


Last edited by Eyvah_Ehyeh on Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:58 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2021
Posts: 58
Location: Sweden
subcons wrote:
Check out Project Starship X. Haven’t played it myself as I’m not a fan of rogue-lite shooters myself, but it’s gotten high marks from a lot of reviewers.

Edit: And also check out Steredenn as well. It’s on every platform, even phones.


Thanks, will check out. :)
_________________
Videos of probably primarily PARSEC47 and noiz2sa


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:45 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2019
Posts: 444
Location: NYC
Project Starship X proves exactly why the idea of a rogue-lite shmup is a bad idea. In a genre built on routing and memorization, forcing it into a procedural model just destroys everything good. You end up with random spikes in difficulty, and no sense of progression. To make up for this, the developers just dump a ton of extra health on top of you to paper over the issues. The game is a mess.
_________________
Formerly known as 8 1/2. I return on my second credit!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:56 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2021
Posts: 58
Location: Sweden
Jonpachi wrote:
Project Starship X proves exactly why the idea of a rogue-lite shmup is a bad idea. In a genre built on routing and memorization, forcing it into a procedural model just destroys everything good. You end up with random spikes in difficulty, and no sense of progression. To make up for this, the developers just dump a ton of extra health on top of you to paper over the issues. The game is a mess.


I realize it's super hard to create something like this. Maybe run n guns are easier for this, seeing as how they're just one step away from games such as Binding of Isaac. What do you think of endless modes, like in Kenta Chos shmups? I guess it depends whether one wants that sense of progression, or not. I used to, but then I got more casual and just wanted to have fun (whilst trying my best). In a way, those spikes in difficulty make it so that I feel less pressure, as well.
_________________
Videos of probably primarily PARSEC47 and noiz2sa


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:01 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 785
Location: Moai Zone
I’ve put over a thousand hours into Nuclear Throne... it’s one of my favorite games ever, so I second its recommendation.

Maybe you should try Neon Abyss... there’s a demo available that’s expansive enough that you’ll get a good taste of the game. I played the demo a lot but haven’t bit on the game yet. It’s a straight up run-and-gun roguelike. Really well-made.

Enter the Gungeon is another great twin-stick roguelike, similar to Nuclear Throne. The gameplay isn’t as ‘twitch’, though, it’s a bit more strategic, despite being a bullet-hell. If the slowish moment-to-moment gameplay doesn’t turn you off completely, there’s a ton of humor and hidden stuff in it to keep you engaged for a while.

Black Future 88 is another great one... killer aesthetic and soundtrack. Run and gun all the way. I’m just getting into it now, seems like it’s got legs.
_________________
http://shmups.tumblr.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:50 am 


User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 542
Stunned at no mention of Monolith.

One of the 3 rogue games I can stomach.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:34 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Posts: 4261
Location: Chicago, IL
For real. People are missing out. I've played a lot of monolith and from what I've seen of Nuclear Throne and Gungeon, those two games WISH they were as well-crafted and tight as Monolith.
_________________
Image
DEMON'S TILT [bullet hell pinball] - Music Composer || EC2151 ~ My FM/YM2612 music & more! || 1CC List || PCE-CD: The Search for Quality


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:12 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2019
Posts: 31
Yeah, seconding Project Starship X and Monolith for roguelike shmups, they are both a heaps of fun (Monolith is a twin-stick shooter/shmup hybrid though.)
I'm making a roguelike shmup too, got a demo available here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1489 ... ion_STEEL/


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 293
Location: Beautiful NW
kid aphex wrote:
Nuclear Throne... it’s one of my favorite games ever


I have roughly 600 hours in Nuclear Throne between PC and the PS4 version. I can see myself playing it for a while longer too, there's a few dozen crowns I need to unlock. Amazing game, highly recommended as well.
_________________
Image
RIP Seattle SuperSonics - 1967–2008


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:05 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 542
EmperorIng wrote:
For real. People are missing out. I've played a lot of monolith and from what I've seen of Nuclear Throne and Gungeon, those two games WISH they were as well-crafted and tight as Monolith.


I couldn't stand Enter the Gungeon and Nuclear looks like any other similar game to me. Monolith just clicks and doesn't waste as much of my time. Flaws aside with the latest DLC, it's still incredible.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:52 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 785
Location: Moai Zone
EmperorIng wrote:
For real. People are missing out. I've played a lot of monolith and from what I've seen of Nuclear Throne and Gungeon, those two games WISH they were as well-crafted and tight as Monolith.


I've played Monolith. It's well made, but for some reason I got bored with it much quicker than Throne. Throne is god-tier. Not sure what it is about it... pure crack in game form. Plays very well, too (unlike gungeon)

Plus, bummer about Monolith is you need a PC and Steam, which some of us don't have (No more PC for me...)
_________________
http://shmups.tumblr.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:52 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 785
Location: Moai Zone
seattlexc wrote:
kid aphex wrote:
Nuclear Throne... it’s one of my favorite games ever


I have roughly 600 hours in Nuclear Throne between PC and the PS4 version. I can see myself playing it for a while longer too, there's a few dozen crowns I need to unlock. Amazing game, highly recommended as well.


Hell yes. It's a shame there'll never be a true sequel, as the devs split up last year in October. A true bummer.
_________________
http://shmups.tumblr.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:26 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 760
I think one of the reasons I really liked Nuclear Throne compared to some of the other games of this type, besides the fact that it generally feels great to play, is that it doesn't confine the level layouts to individual rooms. I like the flow of navigating various parts of the level, coming up to narrow chokepoints or wide open areas and clearing them at my own pace. Theres a nice flow when the whole level is one continuous space. For me clearing a room then going through the next via a door and so on just isn't as fun. This type of gameplay made more sense on the NES or GB when hardware limitations were part of the reason for that type of design.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:26 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 2207
More like a 2-D space dogfighter than anything, but Galak-Z was super fun and I can’t believe how few people played it. The control is just magnificent. It’s a little light on roguelike design items to play endlessly, but for the course of its campaign its a blast.
_________________
http://catstronaut.wordpress.com/
    catstronaut loves games


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:52 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2019
Posts: 31
I remembered another one which is pretty fun: BroodStar - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1232100/BroodStar/


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:02 am 


User avatar

Joined: 11 Oct 2019
Posts: 24
subcons wrote:
Edit: And also check out Steredenn as well. It’s on every platform, even phones.

I'll second steredenn, it's very competent & worth playing. Its RNG challenge design is generally really soild. Has some euroshump elements in there like recoil on some weapons, but generally it isn't too bad. I recommend using gamepad to play it. GFX and OST are quite good too.
_________________
1CC List


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2019
Posts: 273
I like Steredenn, don't love it. The core is pretty much there, so if the same dev, or someone else really worked out the details it could be really really good.

For the 'space dogfighting' genre of shooter (Wing Commander, Colony Wars) I can't recommend Everspace enough. I mean, turning something vast and infinite like space into essentially a dungeon is more than a little perverse. That said, the concept is pulled off without feeling forced, and the game certainly gets it's hooks in. Besides, I played pretty steadily for over a couple years and was still finding new things on the regular.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:57 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2020
Posts: 144
I'm gonna have to give Nuclear Throne a go by your comments since I love Enter the Gungeon (put around 100h into it). Runs are a bit long and the first floors get easy with time, it's true, but you can always skip them via the secret/unlockable "stage select", and there's also modifiers to spice things up from the very beginning of a run. Nowadays I tend to play a run every now and then with
Spoiler: show
the Paradox or the Bullet in order to play with "less RNG" (the former lets you choose your items and the latter has the sword)
or go directly into boss rush. I love its humour and visual style as well, to the point I almost bought the physical ammonomicon.

IMO it's an outstanding game, whether you enjoy it or not (that's just personal taste).
_________________
"There are three possible endings: the good one, the bad one and death" - Locomalito, Hydorah
"If you're going to try, go all the way" - Gus' outstanding run of Mushi at GDQ, climactic speech included


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 760
I should probably give Gungeon another try at some point. The weak starting peashooter with super long reload time got on my nerves so much tho.

Another aspect i think I prefer in these "rogue lite" style games is less reliance on unlockables and level grinding across your save game. A few unlockable characters and so forth is cool, but I'd rather be able to start from a fresh save and be able to get the full experience rather than have to unlock weapons, movesets, shortcuts etc.

Of course games that don't include a progression system and unlockables have been shitcanned by reviewers for supposedly lacking replay value for a long time now.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:12 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2019
Posts: 273
There's also the whole 10tons twin-stick universe, some of which lean much heavier into the 'rouge' elements than others. Neon Chrome is probably their most rouge heavy and it's very good (it's robbed at least 100 hours of my life...)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:01 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 785
Location: Moai Zone
SPM wrote:
I'm gonna have to give Nuclear Throne a go by your comments since I love Enter the Gungeon (put around 100h into it).


I def put quite a few hours into Gungeon, but after I beat it completely I never even considered going back.

I’ve beaten throne a billion times. Plus, it loops and just gets more insane.

Ultimately, Throne is a much more intense experience than Gungeon. It’s quicker to kill, quicker to die, quicker to reload.

Plus, I never felt like I got that much “better” at Gungeon, whereas with Throne, people have watched me play it at higher levels and reacted the same way they would seeing a Stage 5 run in any given Cave SHMUP: Jaws drop.
_________________
http://shmups.tumblr.com


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:14 am 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 2872
Location: Wigan, England.
I've made several attempts at Gungeon, but never managed to click with it either. Shame, because all the ingredients are there, it just doesn't have that 'feel' for me. I'm dreading the upcoming Isaac DLC, that will no doubt steal more time than I have available.

Neon Chrome I found a bit tedious. From what I remember, that felt like one of those that was designed so you'd only overcome failure by grinding it over time. Whereas, yes it's a mess, but if the gods are smiling on your run, Isaac can be an occasionally overpowered blast to play. That reminds me, I'm not sure how randomised it is, but I've still got Jydge on the hard drive, which I've yet to start.

Iron Crypticle doesn't get enough love, it's a little sluggish, but I've found this one of the most playable of the bunch. Lost a lot of time to this. Smash TV meets Ghosts n Goblins, what's not to love?

I'm gonna have to try out Nuclear Throne now, this definitely sounds like my jam.
_________________
XBL & Switch: mjparker77 / PSN: BellyFullOfHell


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:42 am 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2019
Posts: 273
That reminds me, I'm not sure how randomised it is, but I've still got Jydge on the hard drive, which I've yet to start

It's not randomized at all, and is basically a Neon Chrome mode dlc (they put 'from the Neon Chrome universe' as a sub-title to sort of skirt around the fact it's just a different mode for the same game that they released as its own independent title...) where you have to complete various set missions on set maps. Personally, I didn't find it terribly interesting as it does away with the uncertainty of what's going to be around the next corner and how you should deal with it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Good roguelike shmups/run n guns?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 am 


User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2021
Posts: 58
Location: Sweden
This thread is really becoming a gold mine. :D I'll contribute: I had not played a Touhou game since like number 10, and the newest one is 19, but the one I want to bring up in this context is the one called "Unconnected Marketeers", because it has points you can spend between stages on upgrades, life, etc, which is one of the elements in shmups which I sought after when starting this thread. The other game I want to bring your attention to is one which is just coming out, and seems like right up my alley (although, like always, actually playing something is the only way to truly know), namely roguelike run n gun Godstrike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeWZt41 ... meTrailers
_________________
Videos of probably primarily PARSEC47 and noiz2sa


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Acid and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group