Easier = Better

[blossom]

That whole treatment of progressive levels of difficulty was kinda brilliant. Goes back to the idea that stage 1 is important for all types of players: newbies, survival players, score runners. Irem's Fire Barrel is for me a good example of what NOT to do in a shoot em up. It's easy enough that I could probably clear it in a few days with save state practice, but do I really want to do that?

I'll never quite understand those who clear games just because they can. I want a game that's easier but not easy. Eschatos is probably a good example here: there is nothing particularly challenging about stage 1 for survival and yet playing for score remains surprisingly engaging dozens of hours after most games would have lost their grip on you.

[Queen Charlene]

an extremely good post about STG difficulty

this post is honestly so good that i feel like it could almost be its own player guide by itself. i think this is an excellent dissection!

[opt2not]

Just look at the difficulty List. DB is listed pretty high up there. That being said stage 1-3 are basically free and don't need routing besides being aware of enemy spawns. Stage 4+ is where you'll need to start thinking more carefully. I'm new to shmups and I understand that some are made for more experienced players. Reducing the difficulty on DB is kind of pointless, just play Gunbird 1 instead, if you like melee style use Yuan Nang.

Well I’m certainly not “new to shmups” and I don’t think stages 1-3 are free. I haven’t even seen stage 3.
If you have a means to record video, I’d love to see you get to stages 4+.

You may be gifted if you’re new and you can get that far in DB. The rest of us mere mortals could definitely use a difficulty reduction in that game. The difficulty goes beyond just knowing enemy spawns in that game. The snipes, the speed of bullets and enemies, the visual clarity...all contribute to the difficulty level.

[bottino]

The quote above is from: http://shmuplations.com/toaplan-chronicleqa/
Great interview.

Thanks, I ended up forgetting to add the source.

There's another quote by them that illustrates even better the point I was trying to make:

—With so much control over everything, what aspect of development took the most time?

Yuge: Adjusting the difficulty, definitely.

—Were those adjustments influenced by the results of the location tests?

Yuge: At times, yes. Having to satisfy both the users who will play your game and the arcade operators who have economic interests was definitely the hardest part.

Uemura: Yeah, that dilemma often came up. We were told to make our games so that “One credit for 3 minutes”, but we said you can’t make an interesting game like that.

http://shmuplations.com/toaplan-chronicle/

[Lags]

Just look at the difficulty List. DB is listed pretty high up there. That being said stage 1-3 are basically free and don't need routing besides being aware of enemy spawns. Stage 4+ is where you'll need to start thinking more carefully. I'm new to shmups and I understand that some are made for more experienced players. Reducing the difficulty on DB is kind of pointless, just play Gunbird 1 instead, if you like melee style use Yuan Nang.

Well I’m certainly not “new to shmups” and I don’t think stages 1-3 are free. I haven’t even seen stage 3.
If you have a means to record video, I’d love to see you get to stages 4+.

You may be gifted if you’re new and you can get that far in DB. The rest of us mere mortals could definitely use a difficulty reduction in that game. The difficulty goes beyond just knowing enemy spawns in that game. The snipes, the speed of bullets and enemies, the visual clarity...all contribute to the difficulty level.

I played DB maybe for 10 hours last October, and got to stage 5 boss.
I'm very rusty and don't have a route, I just remember enemy spawns now.
Today I tried it again and got to stage 4boss, but I died while taking screenshots of it, lol.
Video replays are a hassle to make on my old laptop but I have the inp file if you like. Here: wolfmame v0.214 Dragon Blaze stage 1-4 input

Screen shots:

Spoiler

Stage 1

Stage 2

Stage 3

Stage 4 Boss

Stage 4 boss game over

DB is a tough game but 1-2-3 should not be *walls*, even for new players. And its difficulty is something to look forward to, when we get better it'll be waiting.

[opt2not]

Hmm, wonder if there are region differences or what settings I’ve played it at.

I’m still going to stick to my original heresy (and the point of this thread) and lament that Dragon Blaze would be much more enjoyable if easier.

[blossom]

There are no region differences as far as I'm aware, then again, I've noticed that Psikyo games on the international setting will allow you to credit feed past stage 5, while the Japanese version will send you to the beginning of the stage if you run out of lives. Perhaps there are other differences?

Even if there aren't any other differences at all, don't worry. I think most outside of the superplayers would agree with you that Dragon Blaze is balls hard.

[6t8k]

What are examples you would argue are better games for toning down the difficulty in some manner?

Doesn't answer your question strictly speaking, but one popular example of a game that's too hard for the wrong (or at least, debatable) reasons is Tatsujin Oh (達人王). Clearing it is a monumental undertaking, with more than enough opportunities for frustration.
The overseas version Truxton II is a little bit more forgiving in some regards, but doesn't change the essence of these blemishes much. It wouldn't be such a shame if it wasn't for the game's otherwise very strong assets. I assume many would agree that easing things a little would've amounted to a better game overall.
Even the developers themselves acknowledge that they went overboard and even apologize

"Could anyone at Toaplan clear Tatsujin-Ou on a single credit?" Uemura: "No, I don't think so (laughs)."
Yuge: "I apologize if it [Tatsujin Oh] is too difficult. (laughs)"

[Lags]

I’m still going to stick to my original heresy (and the point of this thread) and lament that Dragon Blaze would be much more enjoyable if easier.

It would be interesting if you or Donluca made replays of your Dragon Blaze attempts. I'm sure I could give a few tips and more experienced players would as well. Instead of blaming the game for being too difficult and wishing it were easier you should try to figure out how you could improve. That's what most players find rewarding about shmups, overcoming difficult challenges. I'm not trying to be cunty, genuinely interested in helping out fellow shmup players.

Thankfully I just decided to give up on that and get onto other shmups which I enjoyed way more and replenished a bit of my shmup self-esteem.

That's the cool thing about shmups there is a wide space of difficulty, from pretty easy to super hard. Not all shmups are supposed to be equal and "fair" and beatable for everyone across the board.
Psikyo games aren't supposed to be super difficult right away, not like Futari Ultra. DB does get hard, but not immediately at the start....

Are you using your charge shots? If you sit back at the bottom of the screen, shooting and trying to dodge you'll get overwhelmed. The charge shot, quick killing and knowing enemy spawns is vital for making progress.

[donluca]

Are you using your charge shots? If you sit back at the bottom of the screen, shooting and trying to dodge you'll get overwhelmed. The charge shot, quick killing and knowing enemy spawns is vital for making progress.

All criticism and advice are always welcome. I think you've nailed what my issue is: my playstyle in shmups mainly revolve around being at the bottom half of the screen, recognizing when I can micro-dodge aimed shot and then herd bullets swarms or when to move fast to throw off enemies' attacks.

FWIW, Progear taught me in the vertical scrolling stage (I think it's the fourth IIRC) that there are scenarios where you MUST be near the enemies to point blank them and get through the stage or you'll get overwhelmed.

It's been years since I last touched DB mainly because I've found many others which I got more enjoyment out of them.

If I have some time I'll revisit DB and record my runs and share my best one. Unfortunately due to work and other stuff I've had very few spare time for playing videogames at all.

[6t8k]

Gradius III (arcade) [...] World version

Pfft. You want to commit challenge heresy when it comes to Gradius III, you better bring the SNES version along, or else stay home.

Down with both of those, PS2 port is king.

* adjustable difficulty
* eliminable slowdown
* start at any stage or checkpoint
* added power-ups from the SNES version

And unlike the SNES version, it doesn't cut big swaths of content: the Moai spawners, the Moai miniboss, the Ghidorah miniboss, the cube stage, the mini crabs, the rotating lasers...

I advocate the notion that Gradius III on SNES is a great Gradius game in its own right and would be aptly described as something like an elaborate arrange mode of the arcade original. It also improved on some subtleties like the hit detection.
The miracle that is the SA-1 patch, which runs on real hardware, nowadays even lifts the often cited drawback of it having extreme slowdown.

[Some-Mist]

not much to add other than it's too bad DrTrouserPlank isn't around to participate in this thread

[CloudyMusic]

not much to add other than it's too bad DrTrouserPlank isn't around to participate in this thread

Now that's a name I've not heard in a long time.

[opt2not]

It would be interesting if you or Donluca made replays of your Dragon Blaze attempts. I'm sure I could give a few tips and more experienced players would as well. Instead of blaming the game for being too difficult and wishing it were easier you should try to figure out how you could improve. That's what most players find rewarding about shmups, overcoming difficult challenges. I'm not trying to be cunty, genuinely interested in helping out fellow shmup players.

Well I don't really do emulation, and there's no way I'm going to re-buy the PCB. So I'd rather just sit here and hate on it. lol

Kudos to you for just getting into shmups and taking on this beast.

[davyK]

And for this reason, heresy incoming....

Dodonpachi Saturn mode

I have yet to try it, will definitely give it a shot.

Oh, and one bad example of "making the game easier" is the international version of Futari Black Label: the bosses just melt, you don't even get to see all their patterns while the rest of the game still retains most of its difficulty.

The Saturn mode also lets you start on the 2nd loop and tweak the combo timer.

[MathU]

Sorcer Striker is better game because the game is very accessible to beginners than the japanese Mahou Daisakusen. The latter relies heavily on RNG while spewing fast bullets on you, for example stage 5 boss turret spam is near impossible to dodge without bombing (this also leads to NMNB until this boss, for bombspam until it stops), SS with slower bullets make this boss fun to fight and no longer doing bombspam again.

The first thing I always do on that boss is focus on destroying an arm and then point-blanking one of the side turret clusters. I think in general Mahou Daisakusen is a very intimidating and frustrating game due to the fast bullets until you realize that a large amount of enemies have forward-firing attacks and a big lateral blind spot where you're safe. It's context-sensitive though, so the game has a lot of heavy memorization involved. Even the stage 2 boss is a huge difficulty spike until you figure this out. Some enemies also have a bit too much health.

[apatheticTurd]

I think Batsugun Special is a lot more fun than vanilla, even ignoring the extra loops and new scoring tricks it adds for dedicated players. The shield and much stronger bomb do a lot to tame frustrating parts of the base game (ex: Madzella).

[blossom]

Batsugun Special feels easy in a dirty way. That hitbox just wasn't meant for the game. Not that I didn't have fun making it my first arcade clear earlier this week, but my first 1cc ever in Thunder Force III felt more rewarding. So kinda echoing what I said elsewhere in this thread: easier not easy.

[Sumez]

not much to add other than it's too bad DrTrouserPlank isn't around to participate in this thread

Whoa! I completely forgot about the good doctor :O

[To Far Away Times]

Batsugun Special feels easy in a dirty way. That hitbox just wasn't meant for the game. Not that I didn't have fun making it my first arcade clear earlier this week, but my first 1cc ever in Thunder Force III felt more rewarding. So kinda echoing what I said elsewhere in this thread: easier not easy.

Interesting. I thought Thunder Force III (Genesis) was the easier one out of the two. It asks less of the player reaction-wise, but requires more memorization.

Both are top tier games though.

[The Eidolon]

I feel like as most shmups are relatively short, they have to encourage repeat play to reward the player for getting progressively closer
to mastery. As a mediocre player myself, I enjoy games that one can make progress at a reasonable rate rather than just hitting a wall
of frustration. Having different levels of difficulty in the same game, with additional content at the harder difficulties (such as Raiden DX,
for example) seems like a good compromise. It's also nice to let the player have subsidiary goals, such as a first loop clear, which make
a reasonable stopping point, even if there is more challenge out there for a serious player.

[ACSeraph]

You can read about it in more detail in ST Darius, but according to Despatche Darius II was originally designed for difficulty A (easy) and the change to difficulty B being the default was actually a last minute decision. That's one of the reasons the attract mode shows a Silverhawk with more powerups than are actually possible to acquire in a real run. You will notice some power up carrier formations in Difficulty B don't drop powerups, but in A all formations drop them.

At the time I wrote the ST my (the world's?) primary Darius arcade Taito Hey! was running difficulty B as you would expect, so of course I dismissed A completely. But interestingly, for at least the past 5 years Hey!'s cab has been running difficulty A. As a result I now have extensive experience with both difficulties. I have no problem at all with difficulty B, I can actually consistently clear it without any autofire at all. But I actually think A feels better, more balanced, and more fun to play. It's also not easy at all; the differences aren't as extreme as you would expect. Easy or not you can still watch an endless parade of tourists getting wrecked by the last stretch of stage 1 every weekend at Hey!

[stuminator]

Are you using your charge shots? If you sit back at the bottom of the screen, shooting and trying to dodge you'll get overwhelmed. The charge shot, quick killing and knowing enemy spawns is vital for making progress.

All criticism and advice are always welcome. I think you've nailed what my issue is: my playstyle in shmups mainly revolve around being at the bottom half of the screen, recognizing when I can micro-dodge aimed shot and then herd bullets swarms or when to move fast to throw off enemies' attacks.

FWIW, Progear taught me in the vertical scrolling stage (I think it's the fourth IIRC) that there are scenarios where you MUST be near the enemies to point blank them and get through the stage or you'll get overwhelmed.

It's been years since I last touched DB mainly because I've found many others which I got more enjoyment out of them.

If I have some time I'll revisit DB and record my runs and share my best one. Unfortunately due to work and other stuff I've had very few spare time for playing videogames at all.

If you attempt to stay near the bottom and react to threats, you will quickly get overwhelmed by the enemies. You need to learn when and where the dangerous mid-sized enemies appear, and take them out with the dragon shot as soon as they come on screen, before they can fire much of anything.

[monouchi]

Pink Sweets would benefit to be toned down a little, its such an amazing game and if it was just a tad easier or had some sort of gameply fix that made it easier to lower rank, then it would be more approachable.
St 6 for ex is a really cool shmup-stage, music and all...but now you have to battle through the not so easy st 4 and 5 to get there.

[ACSeraph]

^Arrange saved Pink Sweets for me. It's probably too easy, but it's so damn fun to play.

[evil_ash_xero]

I wouldn't mind an easier version of Dangun. Those fast bullet burst are impossible for my eyes to follow. I'm not sure if I've ever made it past stage 2, without continuing (maybe once or so).

[Queen Charlene]

honestly i think the Novice modes in games like DDPR and Ketsui Deathtiny's Super Easy modes are something that all STG releases should strive to include in some way. it is such a great and accessible way to introduce yourself to the game slowly, giving you time to experiment with the mechanics in the stages and to try out new routes without being blasted from all sides by hard to dodge bullet patterns. plus, i think that the "easy" modes make the chaining systems a lot more interesting and accessible as well, rather than being rigid paths that you have to follow to a T.

in DFK Novice (no i won't stop talking about DFK Novice ) especially, the decreased drain speed of the GPS enables you to feel really good when you finally start figuring out those basic chain routes; in the normal game, those chains are a lot harder to keep going and there are way more things that will just break your chain and tank your score potential (ignoring the hundreds of bullets getting flung at you). it also opens up new ideas for survival routes, boss milking/speed destruction (since bombs no longer break chain), and gives you a decently contained game to practice that isn't *too* high maintenance.

[Austin]

I wouldn't mind an easier version of Dangun. Those fast bullet burst are impossible for my eyes to follow. I'm not sure if I've ever made it past stage 2, without continuing (maybe once or so).

Go back and give it more time. Dangun is more about knowing where the enemies are and killing things super fast, not so much about letting stuff linger. This negates having to do as much fine-tuned dodging. Move fast, blow stuff up fast, grab lots of disco men fast. It's very different from your typical Cave game and it shouldn't be approached the same way.

Side note, an easier arrange mode exists in the M2 ShotTriggers version. Definitely recommend checking that out.

[Sumez]

Dangun is just about memorizing where everything appears

[copy-paster]

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