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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:25 am 


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Was messing around with Touhou 12: Undefined Fantastic Object.

I actually don't think I enjoy any of the "standard" shmups made in the series after Imperishable Night. You've got Mountain of Faith which has the weird power = bombs system, and both bombs are more or less functionally the same, with it being very easy to get stuck in boss fights at fairly low power. Subterranean Animism's grazing mechanic's fun, but it has probably the weirdest, and weakest bombs and shot types in general in the entire series, with all of them feeling more experimental and impractical than anything.

Undefined Fantastic Object marks the return of really solid shot types and bombs, but it gets bogged down in the UFO system which, quite frankly, is garbage. It's unbelievably unenjoyable to play. Instead of being able to focus on learning stages and dodging patterns, you have to chase down erratic, bouncing UFOs to get resources, which often will change colour to something you don't want as you collect it, or will lead you into bullets as you try to grab them. Then the question is, do you throw bombs to collect them safely, or just ignore them altogether? Or, as a boss fight pops up, the UFOs immediately stop bouncing around, or as the character dialogue appears, your portrait covers the screen and the UFOs, causing you to accidentally pick up one you don't want. I can't be the only one here who has this complain about Undefined Fantastic Object, as I've seen other people review the game and comment on how distracting having to focus on the bouncing UFOs is.

It's a shame because MoF, SA, and UFO all have fun patterns to dodge, but their gameplay systems are lackluster or too damn finicky to deal with and don't feel as natural as the earlier ones. Embodiment of Scarlet Devil is pretty plain as far as scoring goes, but that's actually okay, it's a simple but elegant game. Perfect Cherry Blossom's border system fits naturally into the gameplay without requiring anything as distracting and absurd as UFO's item collection management, and Imperishable Night's time system (where you use rapid shot or focus graze to earn time items) is a little weirder, but not to an extent that it hinders the gameplay.

I suppose it makes sense I enjoy the older Windows games. My faves in the series were the PC98 era Lotus Land Story as well as Mystic Square and still probably are, behind Perfect Cherry Blossom.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:33 am 


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MoF is my favorite of the windows era (or, the non TSS styled games) because:

1: Coolest patterns imo.
2: Ditches grazing. Fuck grazing

I never found that the reduce in power from bombing was particularly significant, and bombs do significant damage anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:35 am 


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The power loss can become an issue on bosses if you bomb multiple times, but during stages the bombs are practically free. I do like the concept but in practice it can get pretty weird.

PCB and IN feel nice to play and are pretty "balanced" as far as I can tell, but my eyes glaze over at all the individually tweaked numbers in their scoring systems (especially IN's). I also never liked the focused/unfocused distinction in PCB's cherry system (where cherry builds up faster if you're unfocused). I like that the later games keep things simpler, even if hasn't always worked out perfectly.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:27 am 


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DOJ WL, day 27. Super hard to make 2-5 consistent. I'm trying as hard as I can
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:21 am 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Undefined Fantastic Object marks the return of really solid shot types and bombs, but it gets bogged down in the UFO system which, quite frankly, is garbage. It's unbelievably unenjoyable to play.

UFO's system is like the annoying, color changing, floating powerups from the 90s but made even worse. I always end up doing supid risky shit just to get those shiny UFOs so I don't play the game that much.
Shepardus wrote:
I also never liked the focused/unfocused distinction in PCB's cherry system (where cherry builds up faster if you're unfocused).

I played a bit of PCB back in the days and got half-decent scores but never really clicked with the system. I also dislike the importance of onfocused movement because it doesn't seem like it fits the game. You have all these dense patterns with slow bullets and you are supposed to move all over the place at full speed, which seems more like a self-imposed challenge than a well-integrated scoring system. I usually like fast movement but here it makes as much sense as having to play Dangun Feveron with the slowest speed.
Besides, the "hyper" having a mind of its own and being triggered automatically feels way too restrictive, and forces you to have a very specific timing on cherry item collection.

I can see how impressive it is to watch when you put everything together and play an ideal run, but getting to that point is not fun for me.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:02 pm 


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Slightly less lazy sessions of under defeat. I've always loved the game but hate the fact that there's little room for error. It feels like you're basically allowed one mistake, which better happen late in the game. Having said that, it's one of my favourite non cave shmups.

Still not sure if I'll commit to going for a 1cc...
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:39 pm 


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^Under Defeat is two loops, right?

Got right back on Ibara Arrange, I'll try to clear with a better score, now that I have the time.
I've also 1cced Shienryu Explosion on the Playstaion 2, but its so easy that I doesnt even count for anything.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:49 pm 


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I think so... I'm playing regular arcade mode, maybe going for a 1 all.

Ah, ibara arrange, What a great game! I thought about trying to up My score recently, but thought I should try something different. I was very tempted though. Trouble is, I can't stop playing it once I start.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:32 pm 


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Jonst wrote:
I think so... I'm playing regular arcade mode, maybe going for a 1 all.



Yes. It's two loops. Why do you think t took me so long to clear it:D?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:42 pm 


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^ I knew new order mode was 2 loops, couldn't remember arcade mode.

I wasn't sure, I thought you were you were just upping your scores... been away from here for a while!
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:35 pm 


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Under Defeat actually has a loop requirement, so it's only two loops if you meet that. I don't actually know what the loop requirement is, but I didn't get it when I 1-ALL'd
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:19 am 


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The second loop of UD is only possible if the player gets a contribution average of at least 95% over all five stages.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:07 am 


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Ah right, thanks guys. That makes more sense, I was never sure about arcade mode.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:26 pm 


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Tried garegga again the other day, realised I'm never going to be able to play it properly. I played a couple of care free credits of under defeat (after deciding to give up on that too), on the second credit, I made it to the flying tanks on stage 5. Not too bad. Maybe I'll stick with it a bit longer.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:23 pm 


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Jonst wrote:
I made it to the flying tanks on stage 5. Not too bad. Maybe I'll stick with it a bit longer.


Not too far after that! You're close:D
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:57 pm 


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Yeah, just got see if I can even get to that bit consistently. Also holding my nerve and not panic bombing at a few points before. 8)
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:38 am 


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DOJ WL, day 32. I've got my first 2-5 stage no miss. Now it's time to practice some infamous patterns...
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:53 pm 


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Got a 1-ALL on Tatsujin last night and tonight, so getting more consistent, which is cool. Before long I'll be hitting the second loop with a full stock of lives...
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:00 am 


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Layer Section II [Saturn]. You know, RayStorm.
don't make this mistake, huge frame drops on bosses and in later stages, I knew it was worse, but not this much worse [it's a really, really straight port that looks like it takes no advantage of the Saturn's hardware for anything and draws nearly everything on VDP1]

That being said, I'm having a lot more fun with the than I remember.

Also, Guardian Force [Saturn].
It's got nice graphics, and I think the rotating gun mechanic is really cool, but the game just seems boring. Something about it just doesn't seem that great.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:22 am 



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I'm playing Mushihimesama, and I am enjoying it quite a bit. Somewhat unrelated, but has anyone else had an issue with screen tearing on Cave's Steam ports? It's almost the same in Dodonpachi Resurrection.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:44 am 


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scs_jonah wrote:
I'm playing Mushihimesama, and I am enjoying it quite a bit. Somewhat unrelated, but has anyone else had an issue with screen tearing on Cave's Steam ports? It's almost the same in Dodonpachi Resurrection.


yeah it's pretty much put up with tearing or put up with awful input lag
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:02 am 


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still playing Layer Section II [Saturn], should really, really, really go look for my Playstation copy of RayStorm
It's still fun. The first boss is weirdly hard if you're not super aggressive with it.
Enemy fire is largely sparse for the first few stages, and I've gotten hit a bunch because after 20 seconds without getting shot at, I'm getting nailed by a super quick single bullet. It thickens up a bit by stage 5.

I'm really hating the laser attacks, especially from those big battleships. Some of 'em just fire a half second after you notice the flaps on 'em open [assuming you can even see that, visibility in this game, or at least this port, is kinda poor, bright shots on bright enemies with your own fire mixing in], and by the time you realize you're still moving or not lined up between the space, you're getting hit. :lol:
At least that fight against the big ship at the end of stage 4 was cool, although I kinda wish the absolute end of it wasn't so static and boring, you just sit perpendicular to it and slam on it from afar.

and then I'm dying hideously in stage 5
still dunno what I'm going to do for this last half of the game, it's looking pretty rough, especially with the visibility issues combined with loads more shit to deal with :P
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:09 pm 


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that's odd about the Saturn port of Raystorm
I did try it a couple of months ago and thought it wasn't too bad

PS1 ver. is the superior one here, but one can't dismiss the Saturn's as downright bad
my feeling was that this rep is undeserved and much due to the fact that nobody plays it seriously
the biggest and probably only issue I had with it was the slowdown, which rarely kicks in the PS1 version
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:56 pm 



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Now that I have a lot of money to burn and time to waste, and the Steam sale is on, I've decided to cull that growing wishlist.

Played Graze Counter and Steredenn all day. I'll probably never touch Steredenn again, I don't mind the rouge-like stuff, but controls and bullet patterns are not shmuppy at all, and that's the end of it. Graze Counter turned out to be simpler and easier than I expected. A fun distraction, but easily 1CCed, and I don't see a compelling reason to fight for a world record score here.

Will buy more in a few days hoping to find something that'll keep me interested longer.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:39 pm 


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Kollision wrote:
that's odd about the Saturn port of Raystorm
I did try it a couple of months ago and thought it wasn't too bad

PS1 ver. is the superior one here, but one can't dismiss the Saturn's as downright bad
my feeling was that this rep is undeserved and much due to the fact that nobody plays it seriously
the biggest and probably only issue I had with it was the slowdown, which rarely kicks in the PS1 version

It's not unplayable in the slightest, but it's just solidly, consistently worse, and other than feeling like playing the game on the Saturn, there's no reason to bother. Loads of framerate drops, some bosses are largely in slowdown, textures are [possibly? it looks so] lower res, and naturally all of the color blending effects are gone [this might be a plus, since it means things like engine thrust is darker in a game that already has some visibility issues :lol: ].
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:51 pm 



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mycophobia wrote:

yeah it's pretty much put up with tearing or put up with awful input lag


That's unfortunate, as it dissuades me a bit from rotating my laptop due to the consistent placement of it along the top third of my screen. It's a lot less noticeable when playing with regular display options.

Regardless, I cleared it fairly easily on novice and now I'll go for normal.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:16 am 


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DOJ WL, day 40. I'm glad about Hibachi no dodging strategy but it's so hard to prepare and execute.
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:01 am 



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Made it to stage 5 on Mushihimesama normal, still making many small mistakes with enemy patterns. Playing with default screen settings, and as long as my laptop is on a table in front of me with my arcade stick on my lap I think I can make it work.


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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:59 am 


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picked up an N64 today with a few games, one of them being Star Soldier Vanishing Earth, which seems kind of janky (low fps, "roll" mechanic) but also kind of cool?
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 Post subject: Re: Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:08 pm 


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OmKol wrote:
DOJ WL, day 40. I'm glad about Hibachi no dodging strategy but it's so hard to prepare and execute.


Wow. I don't think I could get there if I had 400 days. You're really close!
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