Superplay demonstration format.

[youngmoneySWE]

I personally love these super play runs during Stunfest. Being a intermediate shmupper I understood most of the stuff explained by softdrink/ratical/icarus during all of the runs. I've been watching fighting game tournaments since justin.tv and I honestly think they're doing a good enough job in that genre to cater to not so experienced players. That genre has a lot more events and exposure however (CPT; TWT, etc.) so there is more room for them to grow - and a bigger incentive to attract a larger audience (more viewers = more players = more revenue = better production to attract more viewers = repeat cycle). So if these genre is considered an elitist niche - so be it. I'm more with Eaglet on this one - you watch a superplay like this, get interested ("this looks cool and the commentators say it's super hard, yet I don't understand everything") and then do your research. Next time around you'll enjoy the superplay even more.

About the format though, there is so much going on in shmups! Just watching one screen is often enough - at least for Garegga. Commentators might also have a hard time keeping up with everything going on on two screens, also because the games are pretty synced. Compare this to speedrun races where there's often down time for commentators explaining tricks, the runners are rarely exactly at the same pooint (commentary will then say: "a hard trick is coming up for X, here's what he needs to do. He got it! Let's see if Y can hit that trick again"). In shmups however there is very little down time to explain all of these intricacies - especially when you're keeping up with two runners at the same time (for on erunner it's easier).

As much as I love races and competition in any genre, this format might not be the best for shmups, I feel. A least not from a viewer perspective. Then again, I always think that those who actually made it out to the event and want to battle it out should be able to do so - and it was a joy watching it for sure, just a lot of info to digest. I think the organizers and the players should make the call on this one.

Turned into another rant, doh!

[Xyga]

I'm more with Eaglet on this one - you watch a superplay like this, get interested ("this looks cool and the commentators say it's super hard, yet I don't understand everything") and then do your research. Next time around you'll enjoy the superplay even more.

Well that will always work for a small number who'll enter the niche, sure, my point was that there's a counter-productive effect, I've seen/met a ridiculous number of people get into shmups after watching superplays of some of the hardest shooters, and burn out on the genre in a flash.

About the format though, there is so much going on in shmups! Just watching one screen is often enough - at least for Garegga. Commentators might also have a hard time keeping up with everything going on on two screens, also because the games are pretty synced.

This is of course impossible during a live performance but for videos maybe alternating the two screens for specific segments of the game would be an option.

[youngmoneySWE]

When it comes to actually playing the games, I just don't see how you ease someone into shmups. They are almost always brutal after a certain point. Even games that are visually very appealing and have some sort of gimmick to them (like Ikaruga) that are just cool to play for the aesthetic aspects will require a lot of patience and practice. I just don't see gamers overall have that patience these days.

With fighting games you can more easily take things step by step in game. Tutorials, combo practice. Even ranked play will start you off playing against scrubs when you are a scrub yourself. There's a natural progression there. How do you even do that with shmups? Let people play one stage at a time? (might as well just start playing from the top). In game tutorials, sure, but we don't have that luxury any more since the games are already made and shipped (this is where we as a community can step in and help via Youtube/Twitch).

What I'm trying to say is that even if you cater more to a wider range of players to get them interested when showcasing a game on Stunfest, the players will still struggle when playing themselves. I don't think any tutorial can prepare you for the amount of practice and frustartion that comes with a shmup. Just as you can't prepare for the nervousness and adrenaline that comes with offline fighting game tournaments (fun fact - I've met a lot of online players who came and played at an offline tournament, got destroyed, then never showed up again).

[Xyga]

I was saying we're always pushing forward the games that are about the hardest / requiring the most involvement, not necessarily that the broader audience needs more tutorials to make it less brutal for noobs playing those.
Not all shmups are equal in accessibility, the genre isn't limited to DOJ, Garegga, Ketsui, Ikaruga and a handful of others, yet this is what we make people want to play the most (not just via events like Stunfest but in general) I'm under the impression that the focus on those has further increased with time, the perception and definition of the genre narrowing, while many other games are more comfortable to get into and this without the need for any particular form of assistance.
Is this the curse of the Top 25 ?

[Bananamatic]

do you think people are too retarded to explore the genre themselves or something
you can play what you want, if you're so dumb and dependent on others to only play what's on stunfest then that's your fault
it's an exhibition, not a hand holding session

[Xyga]

the matter is less about whether they're stupid to not explore the genre by themselves but how much they are influenced by the games and level of play that occupy most of the activity and actuality of the genre
this is early 21st century, internet-shite-era, people follow trends-makers / opinon leaders like sheep more easily as they're surrounded by repetition/duplication of the same stuff over and over.
look for the best things in whatever is your interest? you'll find 'tops' and tons of videos and articles about the same items in maybe over 9/10 wesbistes and media around the world
the more access to informative material the less room there is for variety and curiosity, and yes even for a little video game niche like shmups this does apply

I know several people wrote about and demonstrated many other games over time, but while superplays of the greatest titles and superplayers obviously represent a force to promote the genre, as I said IMHO they're also a double-edged sword when they overshadow the rest of the genre's universe
of course it's not intentional coming from the superplayers, but you can't entirely and only blame potential newcomers for lacking curiosity either

[Shepardus]

It's okay, nobody's watching these things anyway so you can do whatever you want.

[Bananamatic]

this is early 21st century, internet-shite-era, people follow trends-makers / opinon leaders like sheep more easily as they're surrounded by repetition/duplication of the same stuff over and over.

it's your problem if you fail to realize this yourself
no room for normies in the internet shite era

[Xyga]

no

although naturally is varies per-individual, it's part your problem, part because of what influences you

[Bananamatic]

you need to be a free thinking radical centrist to play this genre

[Xyga]

nobody's entirely a free-thinker immune to ignorance and influence from his environment/others

and look at the people long-time into shmups and what we do, this narrowing of the genre's culture is our doing to begin, so in a way we are the kings of the normies

[Bananamatic]

narrowing things down to arcade only and pretending like doujin games are for subhumans is arguably worse than simply having a preference for cave
just look at aka to blue vs rolling gunner
no one gives a shit about the latter despite also having ex-cave devs and other big names on board because it's not arcade (and despite the fact almost no one will get to play aka to blue)

if you want to remove ignorance, start by killing arcades
you can start by supporting romhacks and replica cardboard boxes

[Xyga]

what you say is typical of the bullshit fantasy drivel usually read on shmupg, no one here wants an arcades-only status or saying doujin are for subhumans, and it's not a den of cavedrones, don't be as ridiculously stupid as those deranged angry kid cunts

and afaik rolling gunner is not out yet (is there a precise release date btw or just 'in june'?)

my point is there's too much community and media emphasis on a select few elite games and players, that goes without saying the rest - all the rest - is sort of overshadowed by that

[Bananamatic]

what you say is typical of the bullshit fantasy drivel usually read on shmupg, no one here wants an arcades-only status or saying doujin are for subhumans, and it's not a den of cavedrones, don't be as ridiculously stupid as those deranged angry kid cunts

sure, that's why 1cc marathon explicitly doesn't accept anything non-arcade
also a fair reminder that even if you don't like it, shmupg still browses here and is still a part of this community and the whole "poojin" thing is because people actually consider doujin to be inferior

and afaik rolling gunner is not out yet

neither is aka to blue and I don't see anyone playing the mobile version
it's beyond me why people would rather pay attention to a game they won't get to play unless you happen to live near an arcade or pay up $5k for the whole setup than to a game anyone can freely play soon

[Xyga]

what you say is typical of the bullshit fantasy drivel usually read on shmupg, no one here wants an arcades-only status or saying doujin are for subhumans, and it's not a den of cavedrones, don't be as ridiculously stupid as those deranged angry kid cunts

sure, that's why 1cc marathon explicitly doesn't accept anything non-arcade

what even is 1cc marathon, and why do you give a fuck

also a fair reminder that even if you don't like it, shmupg still browses here and is still a part of this community and the whole "poojin" thing is because people actually consider doujin to be inferior

it's a cesspool of idiotic cunt assholes with 13yo mentality who literally shit over every game and every player because of their mental toxic shitposters culture.
here you won't read a fraction of the irrational hate about games of all kinds including doujin that they deliver daily in that radioactive hive-mind shit hangout

you should know better, or is that you continue to mimic their miserable stinking kindergarden attitude because their opinion matters to you more than passing for a cunt here, which is in fact not the kind of ridiculous sect community you pretend it is ?

and afaik rolling gunner is not out yet

neither is aka to blue and I don't see anyone playing the mobile version
it's beyond me why people would rather pay attention to a game they won't get to play unless you happen to live near an arcade or pay up $5k for the whole setup than to a game anyone can freely play soon

why do you keep caring about people who buy pcbs? who gives a fuck about them? or that mobile version, nobody likes playing shmups on mobiles anyway?
are you so eager to play A&B when you kept shitting on the game, or just jealous of a handful of people and unable to be honest for a fucking second?
there might be a port later, and even if there isn't well OMG BIG LOSS ANOTHER CAVE CLONE LOST!!! ...are you a cavedrone in fact? yes considering your play history you certainly are and more so than a lot of people here, but you can't live without contradicting yourself over and over, right?

I'm sure more interested about rolling gunner that should be available soon but I don't know why I should annoy people with it for months like you do, I'm just waiting.
You actualy have no clear idea about what people here really like or not or how they enjoy playing the games or don't, you're just copy-pasting the same fabricated hateful shit flinging you read on shmupg

[Eaglet]

Guys, get the fuck back on topic or GTFO.
This is not 4chan.

[Xyga]

yes you're right. sorry for the long derailing, it would be good to erase several posts.

[Bananamatic]

what even is 1cc marathon, and why do you give a fuck

an event like stunfest (except online) where you can showcase shmups and it actually has way more viewers (and it's open to all levels of play as long as you cleared the game in the past so it's even more relevant than stunfest in terms of potential exposure)
in other words, very much on topic here
except the organizer is in full crusade mode against doujins and even non arcade games in general and very few people seem to have an issue with it
asked him if i can play rolling gunner this year. he told me to play bee storm instead

Guys, stop saying bad things about arcades

"no"

[Xyga]

nothing to do with this community, that's your problem and their's, I see no anti-doujin nor pcb religion here
-
and yes again sorry for runing the thread please do not hesitate to snip away the useless posts

[agyx-groovy]

don't be as ridiculously stupid as those deranged angry kid cunts

I think you need honest self reflection! this sounds very deranged and angry indeed, an unintentional hypocrisy perhaps. I don't know this shmupg? but what i do know is collectivist thinking, you can't hold one group to the standard of individuals and another to they are all "insert blanket ad hominem applied absolutely", this reminds me of the bolsheviks! a very troublesome thing. It's ok friend sometimes we all need to step back and look at ourselves more deeply to see where the real faults lay.

it's a cesspool of idiotic cunt assholes with 13yo mentality who literally shit over every game and every player because of their mental toxic shitposters culture.

Good heavens sir! listen to yourself! the pot calling the kettle black?

what even is 1cc marathon,

Now this is odd, even I know this one and i;m new here, as someone who promotes the community surely you would know what this is? maybe you don't because it's centered around playing and not collecting which is more your thing? there's room for everyone i guess.

[Xyga]

Long time no Cee!

[chum]

Double Spoiler is tne bomb

[Bananamatic]

nothing to do with this community

well of course, it involves playing the games, not speculating about pcb prices and games you'll never play
I don't think there was even a thread here, anything that isn't arcade releases goes right over everyone's heads

[Xyga]

another bullshit misconception, there's only a handful of people here still buying pcbs or expensive collectors games, they do wtf they want anyway, collect or play why do you care about what people do? and pretty much everything gets at least a little attention, there's just not much activity overall because the genre's almost a flatliner

and when I say nothing to do with this community it's because it's an external thing, the opinions of that that 1cc marathon guy aren't everyone's here, just stating the obvious, your criticisms are null.
and if you don't like him why did you play for him? always your contradictions

[Bananamatic]

it seems like only a handful because all the collectors never leave the trading forum
every time I check it out it's mostly people I've never seen post anywhere before (right now I recognize only 4 OPs on the 1st page of "wanted")

same goes for the hardware forum, most of the people there seem to have no interest in shmups chat/high score/strategy

they do wtf they want anyway, collect or play why do you care about what people do?

and why do you care about what games stunfest has

[Xyga]

it seems like only a handful because all the collectors never leave the trading forum
every time I check it out it's mostly people I've never seen post anywhere before (right now I recognize only 4 OPs on the 1st page of "wanted")

yeah lots of visitors that aren't regulars, so what? all trading forums are like that

same goes for the hardware forum, most of the people there seem to have no interest in shmups chat/high score/strategy

yeah so what, it's a fantastic forum and the main reason many including me are here, but many of us also like shmups a lot of course, just not playing much anymore for some, for me they're about 20% of what I play these days, what's your problem with that?

and why do you care about what games stunfest has

you've read haven't you?

it's not the same topic but it's somewhat related, guys like you apparently can't live with the fact that there's people who only enjoy shmups casually, or have other peripheral interests. they shouldn't exist, they shouldn't talk, only superplayers and wannabes orbiting around them (fun fact the actual best players are often the nicest while those ever running behind or having much fewer achievements are by far the most anal about the 'purity' and pushing the elitism of the genre)
but this here is a generalist community, there's room for all good or bad, scholars, side-hobbyists, whatever.
I just wonder why people like you who despise this place for what it is are all over it and its members every damn day.

[agyx-groovy]

what's your problem with that?

Allow me to assist, nobody has any problem with the different aspects of this hobby the problem comes when a gulf is created in miscommunication between those who are players and those who are collectors, the collector can simply never understand or attain the depth of knowledge and fascination for nuance that the player is entertained by favoring instead more the product aspect yet still have a terrible habit of voicing strong opinions on such matters as if they can ever offer an opinion on par with that of the experienced player. The other camp is the more traditional consumer, into collecting "stuff" and part time wooing at the product until the effect wears off and they need a top up again in the form of another purchase, the knowledge this kind can have can only ever be that like a library of genre but never that of a player and this is fundamentally where the lack of seeing eye to eye comes from. I respect players more because they invest effort and like the actual game in the form of mechanics etc and the collector although valuable his librarian knowledge maybe has no right to talk shop on the matters of play and cast a disrespectful attitude because deep down the player makes him feel inadequate, that's real hateful behavior in an indirect fashion.

[Xyga]

yeah so again what? what tells you dumbasses that everyone here is a 'collector'? and for those who are then well, can't change them I guess, if they feel right spending tons of cash and hoarding so be it.

[Bananamatic]

(fun fact the actual best players are often the nicest while those ever running behind or having much fewer achievements are by far the most anal about the 'purity' and pushing the elitism of the genre)

expecting people to play the games and discuss them=elitism
wanting games exclusive on overpriced hardware that's nothing but a pc in a fancy case that most people can't afford=fine
this is your mind on arcades

literally all I'm expecting is
1) showing interest in playing games (games are meant to be played, forums are for discussing things so you'd naturally expect a gaming forum to talk about playing games)
2) playing the games
3) discussing the gameplay

literally every gaming community expects people to play games but here it's elitism
it's a sad state of affairs when the games cost thousands, people are willing to spend that much but good luck finding one person to discuss the game with
I'm sure the "actual best players" would agree (by the way, even gus was "nice" during interviews and we all know who gus really is)

[Xyga]

bullshit, everything you want people here do it, you just wish they'd do only that, much more and mostly at high-levels

well buddy create your ideal community and filter at the entrance, call it shmups-sports or whatever, you'll get what you want this way

wanting games exclusive on overpriced hardware that's nothing but a pc in a fancy case that most people can't afford=fine
this is your mind on arcades

for the nth time it's not, it's yet more bullshit you and the shmupgutter kids made up