too close for comfort - black label

[matrigs]

UME 150 - Official build with new cavesh3 driver "cv1k.c"

excuse me, but am i missing something here?

a "new" sh3 driver?

i tried this one myself a couple of minutes ago and it definitely "works". i had severe dropdowns in futari bl before, even with triple-buffering. with this version the performance seems much better.

however - i don't know if there is triple-buffering applied by default (i don't know where you can check / change that in ume) but the input lag is pretty heavy. i was unable to finish the first stage although i can consequently clear futari bl on the x360.

i have to admit that i don't know anything about ume, and this is the first time that i'm trying it.

[captpain]

I just frame-stepped. There are 2 frames of input lag in Futari, at least on the build I've got.

frame 0 input (no movement)
frame 1 (no movement)
frame 2 ship moves

edit: so yeah it would have to be triple buffering or vsync or whatever if you're getting that, it seems

[captpain]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaqTe4hBtTc

This dude finds setting blitter delay at 60-63% is pretty close to the arcade for slowdown purposes.

[KAI]

UME?

[matrigs]

I just frame-stepped. There are 2 frames of input lag in Futari, at least on the build I've got.

frame 0 input (no movement)
frame 1 (no movement)
frame 2 ship moves

edit: so yeah it would have to be triple buffering or vsync or whatever if you're getting that, it seems

so that's the same amount as the previous driver, then. no change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaqTe4hBtTc

This dude finds setting blitter delay at 60-63% is pretty close to the arcade for slowdown purposes.

well, no news either - this has been known since the slowpoke builds. iirc a shmups.com-er figured that out.

UME?

mess & mame combined. apparently.

EDIT:

actually, after diggind around a bit it seems that this is still the 2011 driver being injected wherever possible.

there is some performance boost after all, but this is still broken.

[Cagar]

Doesn't futari pcb originally have 2 frames of lag? That's what the x360 port says

[trap15]

Yes it does. It's built into the code, so it would require serious hacks to remove.

[Udderdude]

I don't get why they did that ..

[z0mbie90]

I was going to ask a question in another thread about MAME but since my question has alittle to do with the "slowpoke build" maybe I can try my luck here.

I been using the newest shmupmame and MAME 0.149 for a long time with no trouble, but few weeks ago I got a new pc with an Intel i5-3570K cpu and and Geforce GTX770 graphics card. And for some reason shmupmame and regular mame 149 lags like hell for me. I tried the slowpoke build just to see if my pc could handle it. and it runs fine.

So my question is why does the regular stuff that should work fine runs real bad and the one that not 100% working, works like a charm?

[matrigs]

I was going to ask a question in another thread about MAME but since my question has alittle to do with the "slowpoke build" maybe I can try my luck here.

I been using the newest shmupmame and MAME 0.149 for a long time with no trouble, but few weeks ago I got a new pc with an Intel i5-3570K cpu and and Geforce GTX770 graphics card. And for some reason shmupmame and regular mame 149 lags like hell for me. I tried the slowpoke build just to see if my pc could handle it. and it runs fine.

So my question is why does the regular stuff that should work fine runs real bad and the one that not 100% working, works like a charm?

disable multi-threading

[BPzeBanshee]

What I know of the whole thing (since I pay attention to Haze's blog and MAMEWorld like a loser):

UME: MAME and MESS combined. Not much to it, Haze's idea, he's the only one who really compiles the builds, so it isn't "official" but close as you're going to get.

Blitter rate: I said 63% for Deathsmiles. Cave-STG's page on slowdown in ports listed Deathsmiles as most accurate port for slowdown and I noticed almost no difference like this. Drachenherz also went through a bunch of the ports and got very close if not exact to the behaviour of the 360 port slowdown by putting it at 63%. We know the ports aren't deadly accurate with slowdown and as trap15's said in the past the blitter adjustment is a bit of a hackjob compared to emulating the FPGA doohickythingy that actually determines it - but 63% gets you something very comparable compared to its default setting in the driver (50%).

Why the CV1000 driver is in 0.150? Haze accidentally uploaded a UME build of 0.150 with a newer driver that was being proposed for possible inclusion: it actually has a few improvements and apparently includes the blitter adjustments of MetalliC's Slowpoke build and additional fixes that the Slowpoke build lacked, and is generally better overall. It was replaced by a normal build not because it was a mistake to have the games supported, apparently, but because he swears by unmodified builds from source which this EXE wasn't.

Still a performance hog compared to the Demul 0.57 protos before they removed it though.

[trap15]

as trap15's said in the past the blitter adjustment is a bit of a hackjob compared to emulating the FPGA doohickythingy that actually determines it - but 63% gets you something very comparable compared to its default setting in the driver (50%).

63% is wrong for a lot of games though (Ibara is a huge shining example of this). You don't really even need proper emulation; you just need the proper fill-rates for each type of blending method.

My Ibara patches allow you to change the fill-rate of each blending method separately, which is how I was able to get 100% accurate slowdown (in addition to a bunch of CPU core fixes). I was heavily considering submitting the patches to anyone who'd take them, until the licensing fiasco completely trashed my opinion of MAMEdev to the point where no longer want to do any more work for them. If some other team and emulator wants help/assistance with CV1000 emulation, let me know, I am probably willing to help out.

It's entirely possible (and in reality, not very hard) to add those controls, someone just has to actually do it.

[matrigs]

Haze accidentally uploaded a UME build of 0.150

But, as far as i understand, not every version of .150 with sh3 is in fact the "new" driver, but some of the builds have the old driver compiled into it, right?



Where does one actually change the blitter rate?


EDIT: who wrote that?

"yes, basically UME .150 have the same code base as "slowpoke" builds, i.e. my optimisations, (far from accurate) slowdown emulation, etc. in general driver was just cleaned a bit and updated to modern MAME code, but no any significant changes wasnt done.

the idea was to re-add this driver, because passed almost 2 year after it was removed, but taking in account current MAME-drama probably it won't happen."

[BPzeBanshee]

63% is wrong for a lot of games though (Ibara is a huge shining example of this). You don't really even need proper emulation; you just need the proper fill-rates for each type of blending method.

You're absolutely right on this, but you gotta admit it's more sane than "well over here it was 70% on this part of level x and 92% of level y on black label maniac and my cousin's grandma with alzheimers said 50" kind of advice that was also going around in 2011.

But, as far as i understand, not every version of .150 with sh3 is in fact the "new" driver, but some of the builds have the old driver compiled into it, right?

Yeah, there's quite a bit of folks just compiling the old CV1000 driver into the builds. Biggest clue seems to be the driver name: the new one shows as cv1k.c and others show its original name, cavesh3.c.

Blitter rate's in Slider Controls in the TAB Menu for UME ingame. Note also the Game Configuration section: some slowdown seems to happen with it off anyway (which is default setting, or I screwed the setup somewhere) but having it on should get you the Slowpoke style fillrate. No other driver that I've seen has this.

As for your quote, sounds like MetalliC to me. He did Slowpoke MAME AFAIK.

[matrigs]

i set the blitter to 63% in futari bl, and as far as it feels good during stages, the bosses feel wrong. stage 3 boss gets absolutely brutal.

[BPzeBanshee]

Are you comparing against the 360 port or PCB for Futari BL? I found it similar for ESPGaluda II's 360 port and Deathsmiles' but I know in the former's case it's nowhere like PCB slowdowns, so I'm curious as to just how far off it all is.

[matrigs]

Are you comparing against the 360 port or PCB for Futari BL? I found it similar for ESPGaluda II's 360 port and Deathsmiles' but I know in the former's case it's nowhere like PCB slowdowns, so I'm curious as to just how far off it all is.

Only with the 360 version. And afair the port was supposed to be very true to the PCB?

[BPzeBanshee]

I recall Galuda II and MMP/PS getting the shit end of Cave-stg.com's blog with Futari not being much far ahead (in fact I think it was right next to them).

But, I admit my memory can be Haze-y sometimes and I can't seem to get anything working with the Wayback Machine for the site let along the specific blog post listing the games in order of slowdown accuracy. Someone who actually knows Futari via PCB may be able to chip in here.

[matrigs]

https://web.archive.org/web/20120808053 ... com/?p=800

4.) Mushihimesama Futari ver 1.01/1.5/BL (Japanese X360) - ~90-95% slowdown accuracy. The only Cave ports with a little more slowdown than their PCB parents and practically no spots where slowdown is missing, these are still some of the best ports ever made. Some occasional graphical glitches in the 360 modes are unfortunate, as is Cave’s refusal to patch them. The only Cave ports with scanline options.

Wouldn't really call that "shit end"

[BPzeBanshee]

How did you get the Wayback Machine to work? Every time I use it it says "Could not determine user from environment".

I agree though, that's a lot higher up than I thought. I eat my words.

[matrigs]

How did you get the Wayback Machine to work? Every time I use it it says "Could not determine user from environment".

I agree though, that's a lot higher up than I thought. I eat my words.

well the wayback machine sadly requires a lot of trial and error. it's key to have a direct link to an article as you can see that just using the main address doesn't really work very well.

for this one:

- i googled "cave slowdown comparison"
- the first hit is a video link to youtube "DoDonPachi DaiFukkatsu Black Label Zatsuza [high quality]" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHqN_fH2S7k
- you can see this address in the description http://www.cave-stg.com/?p=731
- that's a pretty good start as archive.org crawls mostly popular hits - paste this address into the wayback machine
- so you are now here: https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... com/?p=731
- now, there are not a lot of crawls here, so i check all of them
- i choose the most complete one with the most pictures etc., which is this one: https://web.archive.org/web/20120418115 ... com/?p=731
- i clicked on "opinions": https://web.archive.org/web/20120418105 ... com/?cat=9
- and the sixth link is the link i posted.

TADA.

easy as pie - ain't it

[trap15]

[Udderdude]

Now we only actually need daifukkatsu.

ZOMG TORRENT PLZ.

[Miher]

Holy shit, Deathsmiles Mega Black Label and Pink Sweets 2006/xx/xx are available too, as well it looks like a few minor revisions of other games!

[dunpeal2064]

Having save states for DFK would be awesome.

At what point is it okay to have these roms? Does owning the port give you the okay to have the rom? Or would you have to own the actual pcb?

[nasty_wolverine]

At what point is it okay to have these roms? Does owning the port give you the okay to have the rom? Or would you have to own the actual pcb?

Legally, none. Fair use would be if you dump the rom yourself from a PCB you own.
But otherwise its all very much grey.

[BIL]

At what point is it okay to have these roms?

It'll never be okay, but you can make it too close for comfort. Say a Hail Mary and pour a little of your 40 for mj. ;[

[pestro87]

At what point is it okay to have these roms?

"Joe is an average guy who works at the Gas station. But at night, he boots up MAME and becomes a cyber criminal"

[KAI]

No Fuckatsu BL? meh

[dunpeal2064]

On a side note, is anyone else having problems with a few games in this new build? I keep getting an error when trying to run Mushihimesama, Deathsmiles, and Mushihimetama. The roms work in the other build of mame I was using to play these, and all the other roms work great in both builds, so I'm not sure why these are not working. Not really a big deal, but (If I ever find a DFK dump) it would be nice to have them all working in one build.