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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:53 pm 


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Ok so this article is claiming that Mihara realized that the game had been copied somewhere around March 6th:

http://blog.livedoor.jp/jin115/

Promised to look into it but then on a subsequent entry on the 11th decided that any further consideration of the topic would not be publicized after giving some thought to it.

This explains why the 5pb president showed up at Arika's office begging for help, I'm sure he was begging for forgiveness and a light damages package.

This also explains why Sakari Masaki finally had his column cut from Famitsu360. No matter what his real involvement in the jack move, I hope I never hear this guy's name again.

Regarding Ketsui, 10 bucks says we hear an announcement from CAVE soon that M2 is porting it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:59 pm 


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http://blog.livedoor.jp/jin115/archives/51526628.html

This Ascii art is hilarious:


     ___
   /      \
/  ─    ─\
/    (●)  (●) \
|       (__人__) |
/     ∩ノ ⊃  .../
(  \ / _ノ |  |
.\ “  /__|  |
  \ /___ /





   / ̄ ̄\
 /   ー ー\
 |    ( ●)(●)l               ____
. | U   (__人__)          /      \
  |     |r┬-|<Stop!   ../─    ─  \
.  |     `ー'´}      .. / (●) (●)    \ <How fucking incompentent
.  ヽ        }   \   . |   (__人__)    l    do you have to be to use
   ヽ     ノ       \   \   ` ⌒´    _/ code without permission
   /    く. \      \  ノ           \ but then release a port
  |     \  \    (⌒二           | l shit-packed with bugs??
    |    |ヽ、二⌒)、      \         |  |
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Last edited by adversity1 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:00 pm 



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Jeez, crazy developments. I was actually quite fond of the the game despite it's flaws, but am now less inclined to stand up for it.

I am a long way from expecting perfection, but even I am now worried about the state of Ketsui if it's handled by 5pb and 5pb only. That's if they even manage to get it out...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:05 pm 


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now i wonder did anyone managed to get arikas ketsui ps2 port codes...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:16 pm 


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At what point is the head of 5pb obliged to commit harakiri?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:23 pm 


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joeboto wrote:
now i wonder did anyone managed to get arikas ketsui ps2 port codes...


I played the first level of the 360 Ketsui port at a Games show in Osaka, so it definitely was in the process of being ported. I honestly wonder how.

So let's draw up a timeline:

Feb 19th - DOJBLEX is released.
March 6th - Mihara starts to realize the port code has been jacked
March 11th - Mihara stops commenting on the issue
March 27th - Shipments of the game are halted.
April 21st - 5pb President comes to Mihara's office with an "SOS" according to Mihara. Ketsui is announced as indefinitely delayed
June 19th - 5pb posts notice that Aqua, the development studio to which DOJBLEX was outsourced stole and altered the original source code. Mihara witholds comment until the weekend.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:38 pm 


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There's no hope for the Ketsui port now. It's some shitty eroge company with no direction, so.. yeah. It's disappointing because I would rather see Ketsui ported over, say, Futari.

I bet BLEX will sell due to rarity, despite being a poor port, just like Ibara.

If the 5pb president came to Mihara, maybe he wasn't aware that they stole the code. How would you even steal the code to begin with?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:52 pm 



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joeboto wrote:
now i wonder did anyone managed to get arikas ketsui ps2 port codes...


I always wonder, what is the story behind the ketsui ps2 port not coming out?

Anyone know? Willing to shed some light?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:58 pm 


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"Tate-ana section" is all you need to know.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:12 pm 


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bucklemyshoe wrote:
I always wonder, what is the story behind the ketsui ps2 port not coming out?

There was at least one lengthy thread on here regarding that, have a look around.

In any event, it would appear by now that someone put a hex on the prospect of Ketsui ever being ported...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:01 pm 


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the KDF strikes again :wink:

huzzah...... 8)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:05 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:10 pm 



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adversity1 wrote:
2. 5pb is an even shittier company than we thought.

No, they are hardly to be blamed if the company they contracted was doing illegal source code copying.

In fact, I feel it's more commendable that they're accepting responsibility without even being aware of the situation in the first place, instead of taking down Aqua Systems.

Elixir wrote:
It's some shitty eroge company with no direction, so.. yeah.

They don't even do eroge and their Division 2 (which was in charge of managing these ports) isn't the same as their main branch which does all those bishoujo games... so get your insults correct. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:40 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:52 pm 



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Sorry, I'm more of a 箱○

Though I can understand if you're referring to yourself. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:35 pm 


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You know what I mean.

Division 2's previous titles are eroge, or close enough I guess since it's PS2/360 stuff. Basically, they have no history with shooting games and they're a studio of 5pb, which is what they do themselves. They have no history. It's not going to look good on their resume when people find out they didn't cut off a branch that they outsourced their own project to because they ripped off source code from another company.

Instead they're trying to find out why, while trying to patch the game, while trying to port Ketsui. How much fucking time do you think that will take? 2 years? More, I guess.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:47 pm 



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But see, that's what I was getting at. Looking at Div2's works, they've done nothing other than some original PS2 fantasy visual novel, a creepy DS board game/bishoujo game, the 360 Eroge port, and the 2 Cave ports.

The PS2 game seems un-noteworthy, the DS game is for pedos, and Dondonpatch DOJ BL has now been exposed as a complete screw up thanks to their outsourcer, Aqua Systems, Ketsui is currently in doubt, and it looks like they're having problems with their 360 Eroge port too, since it's been delayed from its July release date to 'indefinitely.' Div2 is doing things wrong left and right.

If I recall 5pb physically is split into two different divisions in different locations, with Div2 being their outbranch. And it wouldn't come as a surprise if one day 5pb Main comes and gives this branch the axe due to all its problems.

My point of contention is people who claim for 5pb's head, and attack their bishoujo games/PC game ports branch, when that branch had really nothing to do with this entire screw up.

Make the call for Div2 head if you like, but leave 5pb be, I want them to continue making stuff like Chaos;Head. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:12 pm 



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well, there goes Ketsui for another 6-12 months (if at all) :/

edit: doh. not meeting.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:05 am 



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joeboto wrote:
now i wonder did anyone managed to get arikas ketsui ps2 port codes...


This is about DOJ.

I asked EOJ for how the whole thing about 'stealing source code' was phrased and he says it was something like 'illegally reproduced code'.

They disassembled+reversed the PS2 binary, is what it sounds like.

It's pretty much impossible to tell if they just lifted the entire thing, which would have been quite a pain in the ass (seriously you get it to assembler and then you start hand porting MIPS assembly to the 360? holy god)

If I had to speculate, I'd say they reached a certain point, and got lost. Probably in the fine details of slowdown/timing/etc. It was just too easy to go disassemble the PS2 binary and see 'how they did it'. Which then turns into another step of 'well write a C version of that function and just drop it in'.

My suspicion is they replicated some sort of very subtle PS/2 port specific bug/idiosyncracy when they did this, and Mihara went 'hey wait a sec....' and now we arrive at this hilarious juncture.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:33 am 


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zakk, you make that sound so difficult (and I believe it is) that I don't think they would even attempt it .

anyone, what were they supposed to use? arcade source code + register/hardware definitions? or just artwork + movement algorithms?

how is this normally done?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:25 am 



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There's probably not much 'normally' in cases like these.

Ideally the original game is written in C or something like it and the microcontroller toolkit just compiles it to the appropriate machine code.
Maybe there's some hand-tweaked assembly routines at the core, but that's manageable. So as a porter maybe you get the original source code, art/sound assets and maybe some documentation about the custom hardware etc.

The worst case scenario is they just throw you what is essentially rom dumps and say 'lol have fun'.

I remember Mihara saying many years ago that the DOJ work was really really hard, and it sort of implied he didn't get much help from Cave. Who knows what that really means in the indecipherable double speak of japanese business relations.

You can certainly disassemble MIPS code and then find some utility that takes the assembly and produces C code. It's typically pretty nasty C code but it's at least a start. It would still be lots of work, but maybe it was less work than dealing with whatever Cave gave them.

And hey, maybe they just happened to have a MIPS binary reversing ninja on staff. Stranger things have happened!



antron wrote:
zakk, you make that sound so difficult (and I believe it is) that I don't think they would even attempt it .

anyone, what were they supposed to use? arcade source code + register/hardware definitions? or just artwork + movement algorithms?

how is this normally done?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:23 am 


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May Cave bless Arika.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:15 am 



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Ok, now it's weirder.

here: http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2009/0 ... ntroversy/

Quote:
The developer produced the 360 version based off the source code, which it had obtained from a company that managed the code.


What the fuck is going on here?

1) this blog or whatever has it wrong.

2) for some reason, a 3rd party has full access to the Arika-developed source code for the PS2 port. And somehow this Aqua Systems convinced someone at said 3rd party to just hand it over.

3) whaaaaat.


Help computah
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:29 am 


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Ok, Mihara just posted an update to his blog.

He realized the code had been stolen on March 11th, like he posted on his blog.

He figured it out by noticing that there were a lot of original elements of the PS2 version present in the 360. Then he started looking in to whether there were duplications in the 360 versions, and if there were, would he win in a lawsuit? He brought this to 5pb and they confirmed it.

Mihara thought that the 5pb company had known about the theft, but as soon as he brough the issue to them, he realized from their response that they were oblivious to it.

Apparently when this issue was brought to Aqua Systems by 5pb, they acknowledged the theft that day. They had built the 360 version off of the PS2 source code. For Mihara, 5pb's guilt lies in the fact that they did not verify the ROM that this company had prepared for them.

He can't reveal exactly how Aqua got the code because they are in damages talks at the moment. He will let everyone know when he can.

He says that in his heart, he was pretty intent on taking 5pb down. But he is only taking the legal step of damages.

But then the 5pb president came to his office, apologized, made clear what had happened AND claimed he wanted to re-do the title.

That's what allowed Mihara to accept their apology.

With their press release, 5pb may no longer be able to work in the industry. But Arika will help them. Mihara is going to take over the DOJBLEX port revision.

But he's really busy at the moment.

The problem is that the limit for a 360 patch is 4 megs, but he thinks they should re-code the whole thing.

He says the dev team for Ketsui is different from the one for DOJ so everyone can rest assured. He says Asada-san (Deathsmiles) will be overseeing this but I think this is just a friendly jab at Asada-san.
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Last edited by adversity1 on Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:35 am 


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He says the dev team for Ketsui is different from the one for DOJ so everyone can rest assured.


This is some good news at least.

Pretty sure the DOJBLEX fiasco will result in 5pb going down eventually.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:07 am 


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adversity1 wrote:
Mihara is going to take over the DOJBLEX port revision.


8)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:07 am 


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adversity1 wrote:
The problem is that the limit for a 360 patch is 4 megs, but he thinks they should re-code the whole thing.

They could maybe release it as multiple patches. Either that, or have a mail-in offer for those who originally bought the game. That said, I'b be surprised if the game code alone was 4meg anyway for a game of this type and age. Even with newer titles, it's the assets that use up all the storage space, not the game code.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:09 am 


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bcass wrote:
adversity1 wrote:
The problem is that the limit for a 360 patch is 4 megs, but he thinks they should re-code the whole thing.

They could maybe release it as multiple patches. Either that, or have a mail-in offer for those who originally bought the game. That said, I'b be surprised if the game code alone was 4meg anyway for a game of this type and age. Even with newer titles, it's the assets that use up all the storage space, not the game code.


Well, the sound + graphics are all on the disc. That should be the bulk, no?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:10 am 


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emphatic wrote:
bcass wrote:
adversity1 wrote:
The problem is that the limit for a 360 patch is 4 megs, but he thinks they should re-code the whole thing.

They could maybe release it as multiple patches. Either that, or have a mail-in offer for those who originally bought the game. That said, I'b be surprised if the game code alone was 4meg anyway for a game of this type and age. Even with newer titles, it's the assets that use up all the storage space, not the game code.


Well, the sound + graphics are all on the disc. That should be the bulk, no?

Yeah, that's what I meant, it's the assets (audio & graphics) that use up all the storage space, not the actual game code.

Also, with this being something of an exceptional case, Microsoft have been known to make exceptions to download limits on plenty of other occasions in the past.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:10 pm 


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Here's hoping that we see a satisfactory resolution to this, as well as the eventual release of a competent Ketsui port. Thanks for all of the info, adversity1.

Considering the recall of the original discs, if Mihara and 5pb are willing to put in the time and money (respectively) to recode it, as well as offer a replacement disc program to buyers of the original... well, it seems like it would be worth waiting for. Mostly because a full re-release would hopefully fix up the extended loading times and broken-ass menus along with the game issues. Although certainly a patch would be more convenient for western buyers :P
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