Psikyo games suck because they're all so similar

[professor ganson]

How many times have I heard this crap. It's like arguing:

Expensive scotch whisky sucks 'cause it all tastes similar. Same with Cabarnet Sauvignon-- all the high-quality ones taste like... like Cabarnet Sauvignon.

Bach's music sucks 'cause it's all so similar. (It all sounds like Bach!)

Plato's early dialogues suck 'cause they're all so similar.

Wtf? Shin Nakamura and his team were refining the ideas behind Sonic Wings year after year until they arrived at masterpieces like Strikers II, Gunbird 2, and Dragon Blaze. Not everyone is going to appreciate these games. Fine. But the problem here is not that they are all similar.

This point needs a separate thread so that I can refer back to it in the years to come, when I will most certainly hear this crap all over again.

[shoe-sama]

SHMUPS SUCK THEYRE ALL SO SIMILAR

[professor ganson]

SHMUPS SUCK THEYRE ALL SO SIMILAR

lol. Exactly!

[Rob]

I will most certainly hear this crap all over again.

Fact. Psikyo doesn't get the credit they deserve for how polished their later games are. I hate to see them all dismissed as if Sengoku Ace was in the same league as a game like Strikers 1999. That is like DonPachi and DOJ.

[neorichieb1971]

But would you like different ones?

Just imagine a shooter where your the aliens and some little ship is your target.. all you have to do is blow it up. And like a Japanese God it weaved in and out of all your gunfire.. Boy you'd be pissed, you'd hate that game

[captain ahar]

But would you like different ones?

Just imagine a shooter where your the aliens and some little ship is your target.. all you have to do is blow it up. And like a Japanese God it weaved in and out of all your gunfire.. Boy you'd be pissed, you'd hate that game

shmup revision of pokemon anyone?

[Pirate1019]

It's interesting to me when I look at the order that Psikyo's games were released. From release to release, the games don't change a whole lot (excluding Psikyo's oddball games), but when you look at Samurai Aces and then Dragon Blaze the difference is surprising.

[louisg]

They're too similar! Sure, they may be refinements, but the comparison to the shmup genre itself does not hold up-- the shmup genre is very wide. I could almost (but not really) see the comparison back in the early 90s when most shooters were cruddy Toaplan ripoffs, but it has grown in many directions.

Now, the popular Psikyo games (Aerofighters-style) are all very close to each other with minute changes. It seems like a lot of developers get a hit, and then continue with that style forever.

This is a clear EA-fication, relying on the same gimmicks again and again-- sticking with the safe territory instead of venturing into a new direction. When Psikyo strays off the path, it usually turns out well. I wish they had done it more often. The same goes for many other developers across genres, sadly.

Yes, I know I will get a bunch of Psikyo fans hopping mad.

[Pirate1019]

When Psikyo strays off the path, it usually turns out well.

Sol Divide and Space Bomber were really really good.

[JoshF]

Dragon Blaze is good because it's the least Psikyo Psikyo game.

[shoe-sama]

I HATE PSIKYO

THEY DONT SHOW YOU TEH BOSS LIFEBARS

[Rob]

This is a clear EA-fication, relying on the same gimmicks again and again--

every shooter dev of the last 15 years

Dragon Blaze is good because it's the least Psikyo Psikyo game.

Pilot Kids

[Pirate1019]

THEY DONT SHOW YOU TEH BOSS LIFEBARS

Blinky bosses ftw.

[shoe-sama]

THEY DONT SHOW YOU TEH BOSS LIFEBARS

Blinky bosses ftw.

ewww wtf red flashing

They should have leik

BLOOD SPEWING ALL OVER THE PLACE AND STUFF

OMG THATD B SO FUCKING AWSUM LOLE

moar violence plz

[JoshF]

When Psikyo strays off the path, it usually turns out well.

Sol Divide and Space Bomber were really really good.

At least they were different and not Sonic Wings sequels with different sprites. Anyway, he's talking about the last couple of games Psikyo made that were great because they incorporated something the formula was lacking, namely a score system.

[louisg]

every shooter dev of the last 15 years

Not G-Rev, Treasure, Raizing, Warashi or Taito. Notice that RSG and Ikaruga play very differently from each other, even though it is a quasi-sequel.

At the same time, I don't want to diminish Psikyo's improvements in their series; Games like Storm Blade or Wyvern Wings have shown us that it is not trivial to copy that style successfully, and a lot of devs end up screwing up a series rather than refining it.

[Rob]

THEY DONT SHOW YOU TEH BOSS LIFEBARS

Blinky bosses ftw.

ewww wtf red flashing

They should have leik

BLOOD SPEWING ALL OVER THE PLACE AND STUFF

OMG THATD B SO FUCKING AWSUM LOLE

moar violence plz

How much money would it take to make you stop posting like this?

[Rob]

every shooter dev of the last 15 years

Not G-Rev, Treasure, Raizing, Warashi or Taito. Notice that RSG and Ikaruga play very differently from each other, even though it is a quasi-sequel.

They made two of their own shooters in 10 years. 1. I would sure hope they were noticeably different (and both still revolve around lame ass enemy chaining, the most unoriginal scoring system going). 2. Not really sure you can compare a dedicated developer, refining their craft to the point Psikyo and Cave have, and a part-time shooter developer. I don't think Treasure measures up to either. 3. You have to be kidding me if you think Raizing is any less about refining a single idea with occasional diversions.

G.Rev is too early to tell but again they're continuing what they had done in the past, just under a new banner. Then you've got their Zero Gunner and Cannon Spike inspired games. Taito still makes shooters?

[shinsage]

Psikyo games are great because they're similar.

Wrap your head around that one.

ps PSIKYO 4 LYFE

[louisg]

They made two of their own shooters in 10 years. 1. I would sure hope they were noticeably different (and both still revolve around lame ass enemy chaining, the most unoriginal scoring system going).

The two Psikyo games compared earlier in the thread as an example of the range of the Aerofightersish style are pretty far apart. Also, I think (but could be wrong) that RSG is 1998 while Ika is '01. That's not 10 years, that's 3. And I don't see how chaining is less original than medal gathering-- even with the added annoyance of having to collect a medal during a certain animation frame.

2. Not really sure you can compare a dedicated developer, refining their craft to the point Psikyo and Cave have, and a part-time shooter developer. I don't think Treasure measures up to either.

Ikaruga is an extremely refined game. Shouldn't it be more impressive that they did it right on the second bounce, rather than several revisions later (and without a lot of reliance on spam patterns)? Treasure's other games are hit and miss, but they sure know their shooters.

3. You have to be kidding me if you think Raizing is any less about refining a single idea with occasional diversions.

Soukyugurentai vs. Battle Garegga (or Dimahoo, etc)? There are a couple minor conventions that are the same, sure, but all in all they are not nearly as close to each other as most of Psikyo's. That's my point.

G.Rev is too early to tell but again they're continuing what they had done in the past, just under a new banner.

Under Defeat is not similar to a Taito game I can think of. I haven't played Senko yet, but the closest thing I can think of is Change Air Blade. And Border Down is significantly different from the Darii. They've been around for a few years now-- if they were Psikyo (or Milestone, Takumi, or any of those guys), they would have already cranked out a bunch of similar games.

Taito still makes shooters?

15 years ago they did =)

[Nuke]

When Psikyo strays off the path, it usually turns out well.

Sol Divide and Space Bomber were really really good.

Hey, don't diss Space Bomber!

[neorichieb1971]

I don't understand why this is important now. Is there some significance to the timing of this thread?

I suppose now is as good a time as any

[shoe-sama]

I don't understand why this is important now. Is there some significance to the timing of this thread?

I suppose now is as good a time as any

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 475#259475

[Rob]

I don't see how chaining is less original than medal gathering-- even with the added annoyance of having to collect a medal during a certain animation frame.

You are definitely right about that. The difference is Psikyo games with medal gathering are not all about that, they are little additions, something to do while tackling the focus of the game. Dodging bullets. Dodging bullets is something to do between chaining in those two Treasure games.

Shouldn't it be more impressive that they did it right on the second bounce, rather than several revisions later (and without a lot of reliance on spam patterns)?

Who's to say it's "right"? I'm not won over. Maybe if they made five more chaining games it wouldn't look so right? What are spam patterns?

Under Defeat is not similar to a Taito game I can think of. I haven't played Senko yet, but the closest thing I can think of is Change Air Blade. And Border Down is significantly different from the Darii. They've been around for a few years now-- if they were Psikyo (or Milestone, Takumi, or any of those guys), they would have already cranked out a bunch of similar games.

Under Defeat is similar to a Psikyo game though, which is pretty funny since they are so original and Psikyo is boring old Psikyo. They copy their simplest game and somehow make it worse. Border Down seemed a heck of a lot like G-Darius to me. That is the thing about these new small developers. They're competing directly with developers that have been refining their one key idea for quite a while. They might have their own formula that they would like to refine, but their initial attempts meet with indifference and then we get filler junk games like Trigger Heart Exelica and Under Defeat.

What were the notable Taito games of the last 15 years? More Darius, and the Ray series. Two ideas, one from the 80s. Were these even developed by the same teams? Big developers can have multiple things going like that.

[Damocles]

They might have their own formula that they would like to refine, but their initial attempts meet with indifference and then we get filler junk games like Trigger Heart Exelica and Under Defeat.

We know you hate the scoring system in Under Defeat. It's fine. Calling it "filler junk", however, is just odd, especially coming from you.

...and didn't you go for a clear? I thought that some time ago you had said you were warming up to it...could have been some other game...

With regards to an earlier post; I find that Trigger Heart is much closer to Zero Gunner 1 than Under Defeat is. Remove the aesthetics and the gameplay is very similar...minus the scoring system.

[Pirate1019]

When Psikyo strays off the path, it usually turns out well.

Sol Divide and Space Bomber were really really good.

At least they were different and not Sonic Wings sequels with different sprites. Anyway, he's talking about the last couple of games Psikyo made that were great because they incorporated something the formula was lacking, namely a score system.

You mean Dragon Blaze and Strikers 1945plus? Didn't 1945+ simply have an updated score system from the original strikers? (old system + Tech bonuses or something?)

[shoe-sama]

1945+ is a 1945 II remake lol

moar liek

Dragon Blaze, Gunbird 2, Strikers 3

[Rob]

We know you hate the scoring system in Under Defeat. It's fine. Calling it "filler junk", however, is just odd, especially coming from you.

OK, that was too harsh. Point is I'm sure G.Rev would rather be making a sequel to Border Down than simple games like Under Defeat. That one boss where the beam of light blinds the cockpit is creative obstacle and a nice touch. There, I said something positive.

[VorpalEdge]

People don't mean all Psikyo games suck because they're similar*. What they mean is that that, if the games are similar, theen the parts one dislikes from one game often gets transplanted into other games. And thus begins an invasion of suckitude, or something like that. The reverse is also true - "All Psikyo games rock because they're similar" would mean... etc etc.

*At least, this is what I would mean if I said that. I imagine there could be some guy who's deliberately bashing the company because it doesn't 'innovate' enough, but if so, said guy really shouldn't be playing shmups to begin with.

[EOJ]

First of all, I agree with the thread title.

Second, it should be noted that Milestone is becoming the new Psikyo in terms of having 1 formula and rehashing ad nauseum.

EDIT: Vorpaledge makes a good point. I dislike Psikyo's formula, so their using said formula over and over makes me think the entire company sucks.