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 Post subject: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:21 pm 


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Whats with the lack of PS3 Shmups? PS1 & PS2 have so damn many and PS3 has jack shite. Why does Cave only develop its new Shmups for the 360 (even the rereleases of download content), when the PS3 is so much more popular in Japan? I mean they are even releasing iPhone games before the PS3 for fuck sake.

I want answer god damn it!!

:)
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:24 pm 


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I do believe it's easier and cheaper to put shmups on the 360. Also, after Sony not allowing Taito to have Raystorm in it's proper aspect ratio, I wouldn't really want to see what they'd make everyone else to to their games.

It is weird though.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:30 pm 


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Why does Cave only develop its new Shmups for the 360, when the Wii is so much more popular in Japan?

I want answer god damn it!!


But seriously, I was certain the Wii would be getting all the shooters at the beginning of this generation. Sad to see everyone gravitate to the 360 now. I blame CAVE.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:33 pm 


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Ugh...man, only if it's the ones they didn't put in HD. I'm spoiled now. I want the HD ones. Screw the Wii!
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:38 pm 


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That question leads to another question I have(lol): how easy is it to develop on the PS3? What does it cost to get licensed? What programming language do they use? What hardware is necessary? Etc.

If anyone knows I'd be very eager to hear. Also, does the PS3 have some sort of "Apps store" where gamers can download online commercial games? Sorry for the n00b questions as I don't own a PS3. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:45 pm 


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Yeah it has an online store called the Playstation Network. All sorts of downloadable content.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:36 am 


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Makes me wonder why nobody's jumped at the chance to make the PS3's first real shmup... :|
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:11 am 


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Beeeecauuuuse, it's easier to develop for the 360 and most of Japans console base had 360's around the time these things started to come out. If you want to know why it's easier to develop for the 360, go look up how the Cell processor works and then how the 360 works.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:46 am 


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this thread.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:50 am 


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:idea:
A wise man once said:
There is no lack of PS3 shmups, there is only a lack of people who purchased a Japanese x360.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:55 am 


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THE wrote:
:idea:
A wise man once said:
There is no lack of PS3 shmups, there is only a lack of people who purchased a Japanese x360.
That isn't wise to start with. The simple reason there are no PS3 shmups or cave ports is that the costs of development are sky high and that Cell is a bitch to develop for due not being x86-like.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:15 am 


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Kaiser wrote:
That isn't wise to start with. The simple reason there are no PS3 shmups or cave ports is that the costs of development are sky high and that Cell is a bitch to develop for due not being x86-like.


That's what fan boys tend to talk to them selves.

But it's complete bullshit.

Neither is it difficult to develop for the PS3, nor is it expensive. Even we can afford PS3 dev-kits.

A 10 years old kid can program a 2D shmup on PC,x360 or PS3. The difference between x360 and PS3 is, that you need to use OpenGL on PS3 and DirectX on x360. None of the multi processing/Cell stuff is needed for something simple as a Shmup and for the record, both consoles are 64-Bit-PowerPC based. The x360 is NOT x86 based!
A talented programmer just switches a pre-compiler statement and viola his shmup works on both PS3 and x360, no big deal...
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:21 am 


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THE wrote:
Even we can afford PS3 dev-kits.


But can you do anything with them?

And would you be happy with releasing shmups for a fanbase that doesn't care about them (at this present day), excluding the fanbase that does?
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:27 am 


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Elixir wrote:
THE wrote:
Even we can afford PS3 dev-kits.


But can you do anything with them?


As long as we accept the rules that Sony dictates, yes!
Some of which are: native fullscreen 16:9 (no border artwork crap), 720p and do not bother us to license your 2d crap for a disc release...

Elixir wrote:
And would you be happy with releasing shmups for a fanbase that doesn't care about them (at this present day), excluding the fanbase that does?


If a fanbase is not present, then you either need to build one or make your games appeal more to casuals. Both can be done...at 10 USD per download this shouldn't be much of a issue anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:49 am 


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A fanbase is already present on the 360. They wouldn't continue to make games for it unless it were 1) easier and 2) had signs of support from other developers in the same genre.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:43 pm 


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Elixir wrote:
A fanbase is already present on the 360. They wouldn't continue to make games for it unless it were 1) easier and 2) had signs of support from other developers in the same genre.


Well there needs a distinction to be done. Development costs are nearly equal for shmups devs on PS3 and x360. But it's a lot easier and cheaper to get a license for x360 for an 2d shmups than on PS3. The license fee per disc is also cheaper, as MS is heavy subsidizing the Japanese x360 market. I only know fellow PS3 devs, but I wouldn't wonder if MS is even giving out those licenses for free in Japan, it's a common tactic for prestige markets.

I don't have a doubt, that every serious Japanese Shmup/Waifu/Hentai/Dating Game fan has a jpn x360 by now anyway...PS3 versions would reach casual shmupers though.

Sony will probably allow those games easier on the PS3, when the PS4 is near. They also did that on PS2.
Maybe Cave will then release compilations on PS3...
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:02 pm 


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siliconera interview with CAVE's Asada wrote:
Q: A lot of my readers asked why isn’t Cave releasing games on (insert platform here). Instead of listing those out, why did Cave pick Xbox 360 and iPhone OS as their primary platforms?

A: With regards to the Xbox 360, CAVE’s main target is the domestic audience. Here in Japan, the Xbox 360 has the largest concentration of shooter players, and that’s the main reason we keep releasing games for it.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:29 pm 



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Quote:
A talented programmer just switches a pre-compiler statement and viola his shmup works on both PS3 and x360, no big deal...


question - does that pre-compiler take care of SPU/PPU balance on the PS3? I'd have thought that on the X360 that the Cave games are doable on one core, is that possible on the PS3 ? how does it work in terms of compilation? I assume given the SPU/PPU set up on the PS3 that you would have to code around the architecture so i'm curious how the pre/compiler works - can you fill us in? i'm genuinely curious.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:39 pm 


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dcharlie wrote:
Quote:
A talented programmer just switches a pre-compiler statement and viola his shmup works on both PS3 and x360, no big deal...


question - does that pre-compiler take care of SPU/PPU balance on the PS3? I'd have thought that on the X360 that the Cave games are doable on one core, is that possible on the PS3 ? how does it work in terms of compilation? I assume given the SPU/PPU set up on the PS3 that you would have to code around the architecture so i'm curious how the pre/compiler works - can you fill us in? i'm genuinely curious.


Japanese styled 2d Shmups don't need more than one core. One thread for the game and one for the music, soundfx management is enough. I can't go into details, but for highend stuff, you want to manage the SPUs yourself and maybe even hack them in assembly. The SPUs are not normal CPUs, you can't just get some random code and compile it for it...but this is irrelevant for trivial programs like shmups.

Simplified, you can just handle the PS3 as an x360. You just need to adapt low level stuff, like using the GPU to draw the polygons, sound output, getting controller information, accessing the disc. A good programmer has those stuff in a library and just switches it out and viola.

I'm certain that one could port a shmup from x360 to PS3 in 5-7 working days.
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Last edited by THE on Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:40 pm 


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emphatic wrote:
siliconera interview with CAVE's Asada wrote:
Q: A lot of my readers asked why isn’t Cave releasing games on (insert platform here). Instead of listing those out, why did Cave pick Xbox 360 and iPhone OS as their primary platforms?

A: With regards to the Xbox 360, CAVE’s main target is the domestic audience. Here in Japan, the Xbox 360 has the largest concentration of shooter players, and that’s the main reason we keep releasing games for it.


You are soooo a party pooper :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:07 pm 


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THE wrote:
You are soooo a party pooper :mrgreen:


Sorry.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:37 pm 



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I would imagine sony's policy of full 720p native 16:9 makes it quite expensive. Thats a lot of pixels to fill up.

I always wanted a Parodius at 1080p 16:9 native with all those colours and high resolution sprites (or polygons for the main enemies/ships etc). I don't see why it can't be done. Just like Avatar broke moulds with 3D I don't see why the 2D shmup can't get into the realm of 1080p full screen action that has charm/character and good gameplay. If price is the only issue and games have to look outdated as a result thats a crying shame.

Everytime I have seen an old game get a re-release you can see all the shortcuts they took on the title screen before you even start playing.

What I want to see is what Sony Liverpool did between Wipeout 1 and Wipeout HD. Thats what I want to see, one small step for shmups, one big step for shmupkind. Once someone does it, I'm sure the template for others will be there to follow.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:34 pm 


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Kaiser wrote:
and that Cell is a bitch to develop for due not being x86-like.


it's PowerPC; like the Xbox360, Wii, Gamecube, older Macs, etc..

emphatic wrote:
siliconera interview with CAVE's Asada wrote:
Q: A lot of my readers asked why isn’t Cave releasing games on (insert platform here). Instead of listing those out, why did Cave pick Xbox 360 and iPhone OS as their primary platforms?

A: With regards to the Xbox 360, CAVE’s main target is the domestic audience. Here in Japan, the Xbox 360 has the largest concentration of shooter players, and that’s the main reason we keep releasing games for it.


but how did that come to be? was it a strategy by MS to get their console into the Japanese market?


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:31 pm 


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Wow, I'm trying to find info about developing on the PS3 and I can't seem to find anything on the Sony/Ps3 website. Can anyone point me to their developers portal?

All I could find is from news links and forums that development licensing costs on the PS3 reach into the multi-thousands of dollars range! And that doesn't take into account all the legal game publishing licensing mumbo-jumpo plus sony not rejecting your game.


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:47 am 



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Plus if you look at the PS3 and PSP libraries, you can imagine how fast average shmup devs get laughed out of the Sony offices.

Who knows what miracle got Gundemonium Collection on PSN.
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:56 am 


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I have never heard of Gundemonium Collection.. *jumps on PSN*
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:03 am 


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Iori Branford wrote:
Plus if you look at the PS3 and PSP libraries, you can imagine how fast average shmup devs get laughed out of the Sony offices.


For XBLA games it's even worse at MS USA and MS Europe :cry:
They however will release "anything" on disc what you want as long as you pay upfront for it...

Quote:
Who knows what miracle got Gundemonium Collection on PSN.


Yeah, I don't understand it's existence either :wink:

But seriously the rules on PSN are a lot lower than on PS3...
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:16 am 


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Rockin android is bringing to PSN 2 more of their doujins, Cresent pale mist and Qlione1 and 2 http://www.siliconera.com/2010/10/25/ql ... station-3/

For XBLA i thought the story was that a the very beginning M$ were very receptive to arcade game but a couple of years later did a u-turn on their policy, wanting there to be less arcade game XBLA releases. Thats why Ketsui and DOJ never made it to XBLA
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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:20 am 



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THE just to ask, but as you've mentioned before the disc fees that MS offers are much cheaper, I think, please correct me If I am wrong, but also Sony doesn't want retail discs releases, and BR fees are much higher than the DVD ones, since I am sure that in Sony's policy a retail game has to be on BR and for a shooting game is just ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Lack of PS3 Shmups
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:40 am 


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Phellan Wolf wrote:
THE just to ask, but as you've mentioned before the disc fees that MS offers are much cheaper, I think, please correct me If I am wrong, but also Sony doesn't want retail discs releases, and BR fees are much higher than the DVD ones, since I am sure that in Sony's policy a retail game has to be on BR and for a shooting game is just ridiculous.


I don't know anyone who was mad enough to ask them for a disc release of a 2D shmup.
On PS3 BR is a must, DVD and CD is not possible. But BR may only costs 2-3 EUR more than a DVD. It's not a deal breaker. I'm not sure if they would even allow a disc release though...

On all consoles there are requirements for minimum print runs, those are different for each console and each region, some of those kill shmup releases instantly. If you see those numbers, you will understand why the x360 is the shmup console for this generation! The Wii would have had a chance to become it too, but the first JPN shmup devs decided for x360, probably for cheaper license/dev-kit costs.

But I don't care about disc releases for PS3 anyway, PSN is ideal for 2D games. Cave could instantly release their stuff on PSN. But they are currently just not interested in that. Just see the recent interview that emphatic quoted.
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