Why no Ketsui home port?

jpolz · Post by **jpolz** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:59 pm

Seems like every notable SHMUP produced recently has gotten a home console port, so why has Ketsui remained absent to this point?

Not that good? Still popular in arcades?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:02 pm

This has been discussed before on a couple of threads, but to the best of my knowledge, in summary, Arika (the ones who ported DOJ and Galuda to the PS2) were originally planning to port Ketsui, but some sort of misunderstanding occurred between them and Cave, and their relationship to each other more or less went kaput. As such, Cave's been porting their own stuff since then, with Taito as publisher; couldn't say why they haven't bothered to do a "retro" port of Ketsui, maybe they'd just prefer to focus on their newer stuff. Rumors persist of an eventual PS3 port, but rumors are all they are for now...

Someone else could probably fill in the details.

jpj- · Post by **jpj-** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:04 pm

ps2 couldn't do it justice.

diOdesu · Post by **diOdesu** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:15 pm

justice shmustice, i just want ketsui.

jpj- · Post by **jpj-** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:16 pm

then buy it.

it's not coming out on ps2.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:17 pm

ps3 port ? lmfao!!

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:17 pm

Think of it this way: It's cheaper than a PS3 will be :)

sffan · Post by **sffan** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:46 pm

jpj- wrote:ps2 couldn't do it justice.

Yes it could. It did Galuda justice, and Galuda was a later game.

I remember when people here were saying the PS2 couldn't handle all the bullets in Mushi, and it did that too.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:48 pm

sffan wrote:
jpj- wrote:
Yes it could. It did Galuda justice, and Galuda was a later game.

Search around. The only person I would listen on porting PGM hardware to the PS2 stated that a striaght port would take every bit of energy, and no added value would be possible. In short, a "port" is impossible.

roker · Post by **roker** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:31 pm

sffan wrote:I remember when people here were saying the PS2 couldn't handle all the bullets in Mushi, and it did that too.

I it couldn't

???

sffan · Post by **sffan** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:36 pm

roker wrote:
sffan wrote:I remember when people here were saying the PS2 couldn't handle all the bullets in Mushi, and it did that too.
I it couldn't

???

What does "I it couldn't" mean?

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:50 pm

holy shit you guys...holy shit.

This needs to be stickied or something.

The Ketsui DVD series of events did not cease a relationship between ARIKA from doing CAVE ports. CAVE ASKED ARIKA to do Mushi, but they declined. Mihara said something along the lines of that he was very sick, work related stress, and even went to the hospital.

The work they did on DOJ was fucking hard, but since Galuda ran on the same hardware, it wasn't so intense to release it. MUSHI was on new hardware.

GaijinPunch already said it, but Mihara said that it would be too hard to put Ketsui on the PS2 with the extra features he wanted. It would just be a barebones ARCADE only mode. Yes, I'm sure people here wouldn't mind that, but this is Japan, and they don't care about you.

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:12 pm

Five ways to play Ketsui:

1) Find a friend that has the PCB and borrow it
2) Go buy the PCB and the means to play it
3) Go help the MAME devteam crack Ketsui's incredibly complex encryption routines and get it up and running
4) Go to Japan and live/stay next door to an arcade that has it
5) Learn to code on a PS2 devkit, and port it yourself

All these are more likely than seeing Arika port Ketsui at the moment, and Taito look like they're doing more recent releases than tackling the back catalogue. Even then Taito's ports are only about 90-95% accurate, with some notable differences - Mushi has some irregular slowdown in Maniac/Ultra/Arranged, while Ibara has a whole list of random gameplay altering differences - plus the much-debated graphical problems.

And yes, I agree, sticky this thread. The 'Ketsui on PS2?' topic is just as popular as the 'TFV: PSX or Saturn?' and 'Garegga: WTF is Rank?' topics. ^_-

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:35 pm

The work they did on DOJ was fucking hard, but since Galuda ran on the same hardware, it wasn't so intense to release it.

In the blog bit about Ketsui, he stated that Galuda was "just barely possible". Another blog entry somewhere stated that someone from Cave had to sit down w/ Arika developers for a while to explain how the low level assembly code worked. I think it was Galuda, despite the fact the hardware was the same.

But yeah, if you want Ketsui that bad, bite the bullet. It's worth it, and is probably the best reason to own a supergun right now. The 2nd best is Mushi.

are only about 90-95% accurate

Depends on your idea of accurate. DOJ is said to not even be 90% accurate. That would put Mushi in the 70's I would think. No non-interlaced mode and irregular bullet speed drove me to buy the PCB. Then again, I've bought hardly any games in the last 6-8 months, so deserved to splurge.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:41 pm

GaijinPunch wrote: if you want Ketsui that bad, bite the bullet. It's worth it, and is probably the best reason to own a supergun right now.

quoted for being absolutley true!!!

if any game is worth the step into arcadegames it sureley is Ketsui

tho i'd say the 2nd best reason would be Ibara, aside from Black label being included the port really sucks. (so does the mushi port but im just not that keen on that game

)

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:59 pm

Come on now, Batrider or Dimahoo deserve a spot up there.

Raidenfighter Kirkov · Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:44 pm

*hehehe*

Dont forget about Raiden Fighters Jet !

Proud to be a member of the Raiden Fighters templar order.

Greetings
RFK

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:12 am

jpj- wrote:ps2 couldn't do it justice.

Er... please explain? Ketsui runs on PGM hardware. ie: a 20MHz processor. How exactly could a PS2 not handle this?

Don't confuse lazy developers with poor hardware. The two are not always related.

Never_Scurred · Post by **Never_Scurred** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:16 am

elvis wrote:
jpj- wrote:Don't confuse lazy developers with poor hardware. The two are not always related.

PreacH, brotha preach!

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:20 am

oops.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:22 am

Valgar wrote:Come on now, Batrider or Dimahoo deserve a spot up there.

Yeah, but they are very well emulated, if not perfect. W/ Ketsui and Mushi (and yes, Ibara) PCB is the only way to play it within an acceptable amount of arcade accuracy.

Don't confuse lazy developers with poor hardware. The two are not always related.

Well, considering Arika has put out perhaps the two best arcade port packages ever (yes, ever):
-Near perfect ports
-Arrange / Death Label modes
-Super Play DVDs
-Replay functionality (plus saved replays)
-Simulation modes

... I would hardly call them lazy. Besides, they didn't say it was impossible. They said it was not possible. You will know what I mean if you dig up the original post.

FYI to anyone thinking of picking up a board, there's a good deal (kit minus the box) you know where right now.

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:14 am

sven666 wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote: if you want Ketsui that bad, bite the bullet. It's worth it, and is probably the best reason to own a supergun right now.
quoted for being absolutley true!!!

if any game is worth the step into arcadegames it sureley is Ketsui

Bloodflowers put me off going into pcbs with a few posts in the hardware section

I'm messy and uncaring regarding games (I spilt red wine over DDP and spine last week).

It sounds like serious business getting into the pcb scene.

I'd still like to play ketsui, though I couldn't deal with the crushing disappointment if I stepped on it or some shit.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:55 am

GaijinPunch wrote: In the blog bit about Ketsui, he stated that Galuda was "just barely possible". .

Yea. I thought Mihara was a huge CAVE lover and that was one of the reasons that they actually went through with it. I remember the sale numbers not being great.

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:58 am

GaijinPunch wrote:... I would hardly call them lazy. Besides, they didn't say it was impossible. They said it was not possible. You will know what I mean if you dig up the original post.

Sorry cheif, but everyone cuts corners to save bucks these days.

If developers *REALLY* wanted arcade perfect ports on modern consoles, they could deliver them The problem is the cost of doing so isn't worth the reward, and as such corners are cut, costs are shaved, and the end result is imperfect ports.

Money rules this world, not the desire to do one's best. Anyone who glorifies developers (or more realistically, publishers and the people pulling the developer's strings) to be some sort of all-seeing geniouses who are truly limited by hardware rather than their own desire to release a decent port is fooling themselves.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:26 am

Sorry cheif, but everyone cuts corners to save bucks these days.

If developers *REALLY* wanted arcade perfect ports on modern consoles, they could deliver them

Yet Arika has done it twice. I guess I don't understand your post. What of these ports reeks of "corner cutting"? There is nothing but heart and soul poured into these two packages, and regardless of how you like the games, I think every fan of arcade games should own them just for what they stand for.

I still don't understand why everyone:
1: Doesn't believe the one person that's actually had experience with both pieces of hardware.
2: Continues to point out the fact that "they could do it if they wanted to" even though they never will. The outcome is the same = no port. This thread is rather new, but the topic quite old and tiresome.

Yea. I thought Mihara was a huge CAVE lover and that was one of the reasons that they actually went through with it..

Huge fanboy. You can tell by his blog.

Bloodflowers put me off going into pcbs with a few posts in the hardware section

Wow, what a bastard. He definitely has some bad karma coming his way then.

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:34 am

GaijinPunch wrote:Yet Arika has done it twice. I guess I don't understand your post. What of these ports reeks of "corner cutting"? There is nothing but heart and soul poured into these two packages, and regardless of how you like the games, I think every fan of arcade games should own them just for what they stand for.

Eh? Weren't you the one half a dozen posts back listing the differences between the Arika PS2 ports and the arcade originals?

Either way, I've bought all the Cave PS2 ports, and am happy with them. Yes, the Cave/Taito ones are inferior, but regardless I still buy them. Why? Well (a) I have two kids and a mortgage - game PCBs aren't cheap, and I don't have disposable income to waste on such frivilous activities when my kids need schooling, and (b) I live in a country that has a smaller population than Tokyo city. We simply don't get Cave (or anything except Raiden) shooters in our arcades, so I don't have a PCB to compare the port to, and nor will I ever. Maybe I will when the kids leave home. But chances are by then the boards will be so rare, I'd have to get a second mortgage just to buy them.

"Prefect" means just that - perfect. Arika's PS2 ports still use interlaced modes (which are not mandatory - they are spimply provided as default with the Sony SDK - developers may turn them off - look at "Treasurebox"!!!), even with filtering turned off, which is imprefect. And as much as I whine about it, I'll still buy the games because they are fun, regardless of how much they make my eyes bleed after playing them for an hour straight.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:47 am

The only differences I know of in the Arika ports are:
1: Graphics glitch found in the PCBs are gone (most would see this as an improvement)
2: Slowdown emulation isn't 100% perfect, although after playing Galuda on the PCB quite a few times, I can say it's damn close. DOJ doesn't have as good of slowdown emulation, but I can't comment as I'm not as familiar with it. Slowdown emulation is probably the hardest thing to do in a port.

Don't know of any other "differences" between them. The home ports of course have additional content if that's what you're referring to, but should'nt have any bearing on a ports accuracy.

Arika's PS2 ports still use interlaced modes,

Flip the TV on it's side -- problem solved!

I think the only way you will see a 100% pefect port is when the console and arcade hardware share a common architecture. Naomi->DC, Chihiro->Xbox. Next gen will be interesting... apparently PS3 can handle Lindberg no sweat, but will they put the time into it?

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 2:56 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
Arika's PS2 ports still use interlaced modes,
Flip the TV on it's side -- problem solved!

I was under the impression they still used interlaced modes in tate (the filtering is removed, but they still aren't showing graphics in progressive scan). Is that right? Or am I smoking crack?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:34 am

elvis wrote:but they still aren't showing graphics in progressive scan). Is that right? Or am I smoking crack?

You are indeed, smoking crack (pass da pipe). TATE mode is 15khz non-interlaced at it's native resolution. TATEHOSEI (anyone know WTF this stands for) uses some funky crumpled version for people that don't have a vertical (I guess horizontal in this case actaully) control on their TV/monitor. It's a bit hard on the eyes. I don't know how they did it. It's non-interlaced, but "just ain't right".

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:42 am

Back on topic, I ripped this out fo the otehr thread.

Well, quite a few people that fancy themselves experts argue that "If you can do DOJ, Galuda, or even Mushi on the PS2, you can do Ketsui". Mihara even said in his blog, "I've gotten a lot of emails from overseas asking why it can't be done." He said over, and over, and over again that it just won't work. To put it bluntly he said, "Trust me! It's not like porting ESPGaluda which was just barely feasible".

While he does admit that in a very painstaking effort they could probably do an "arcade port" (meaning it runs in arcade mode, and only arcade mode. You play, continue, and that's it... the only extra feature over the PCB you would get is a pause feature) but with such a project, there's "sales and added value barriers". If they had no budget and time they could do a better port, but price of the games are alraedy decided (5800 yen, no?) so they'd lose do.

He finishes the blog saying they won't sell a half-assed product.

In a nutshell, he's not saying it's technically impossible... it's just technically impossible to do without losing money do to the work involved. [Ie = no added value hurts sales]. In an earlier blog entry he said that for the DOJ port, considerable time (a month or so?) was spent with Cave, just having the code (Assembly I believe) explaiend. On a seperate occasion, in the Famitsu DOJ port interview with him, Clover-TAC and a few others, he said the hardest part of the DOJ port convincing Arika's sales division to take on the project.

I guess why is neither here nor there. We're not getting a port for a very long time, if at all.