A serious note. TVs, on their side (tate)

Post by **system11** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:07 pm

Finally heard enough of this now.

"TATEing your TV won't harm it" (and so on).

This is the usual case, above. However, it assumes you're very careful, and don't submit the TV to even light shocks (try to put one down on it's side without a light clunk). It assumes the TV is well built, that the chassis and casing are VERY well fixed together, and so on. Here is a small list of potential problems you can cause - some very unlikely, some more likely:

1) Chassis/case not built to bear sideways load. Put a heavy thing on a bit of wood, and bolt it down. The weight is being carried by the wood, not the screws. Now lift one side. You just transferred all the weight of the screen from the casing, to the mountings.

2) Component weights. Similar to the above. Some flyback transformers are moderately heavy, and soldered directly to the PCB. If they don't have nice strong mounting tabs, when on it's side the flyback is being suspended by its legs and solder. These are already places prone to dry joints and heat stress. An arcing flyback isn't pretty, I've seen it.

3) General build quality. Did you know, the neck board is a push fit? The connectors on these over time become very fragile. Perhaps a light shock will dislodge it entirely.

4) Shadow mask. Light shocks again - you can actually dislodge these, and then the screen is fucked.

5) Discolouration. If the TV doesn't have a good degauss circuit, or you sufficiently magnetise it while flipping, you could be stuck with poor colours. A degauss wand will fix this, but they can weaken the shadow mask.

6) Casing again. The plastic casing on the bottom of most TVs is nice thick stuff. The sides sometimes aren't. Can the side of your TV support the weight of the entire unit?

7) Back to light shocks - the convergence and purity rings can be disturbed, although it IS unlikely.

8) Chassis board again - Some of the larger capacitors used are heavy, and soldered to the board on two thin legs. On their side, they stress more. I've actually seen a capacitor loose and knocking around in this situation. Found it after the screen (on a cab) in question went BANG and stopped working.

Having said all this, arcade monitors are usually designed to be mounted either way (although I have seen some where the chassis and tube are seperated, to allow the chassis to still sit flat, and I've seen some where the chassis is specifically side mounted, for vertical use). They can still suffer many of the above problems, but are built to withstand a certain amount. TVs are very similar in construction, except they are built with the assumption that they'll not be on their side.

Mostly, rotating your TV if the case looks strong and it's not a 32" behemoth, is going to be safe enough - it'll be better to have one you can permanently put on its side, obviously for practical reasons try to get one that will be VERY stable (flat sided). Many people here have been spinning their TVs like it's a sport, without issue.

However, always approach TV rotation understanding that you might be unlucky, and that these things are not built to be constantly moved and handled. The people encouraging TV rotation with claims of perfect safety (both for you and the TV) are not the people who will have to replace it, if it breaks.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:07 pm

Looks like I won't be TATE-ing my 32-inch "behemoth"

with slightly rounded sides anytime soon. Nice article, bloodflowers. Very informative and honest, thanks!

JigsawMan · Post by **JigsawMan** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:19 pm

I have two Sony 21" CRT Wegas, one has always been rotated and it works a treat. It's been like it for about 6 - 8 months now. I tried tating my 28" Wega widescreen - that took some effort but all the colours were messed up.

theevilfunkster · Post by **theevilfunkster** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:00 pm

this site i found on the links page told me everything i needed to know about rotating my tvs.

ive tried it on two tvs with no problems. i even did my 21" panasonic (which was just out of warranty) and it was ok, thank fuck

http://turn.to/vertical

japtor · Post by **japtor** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:00 pm

theevilfunkster wrote:this site i found on the links page told me everything i needed to know about rotating my tvs.

ive tried it on two tvs with no problems. i even did my 21" panasonic (which was just out of warranty) and it was ok, thank fuck

http://turn.to/vertical

cept that doesnt take into account the concerns bloodflowers brought up at all. im guessing advice like that is why he brought this topic up in the first place, its basically saying temporary color distortion is the worst thing that can go wrong, even though theres a bunch of other stuff to be concerned about.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:58 am

its basically saying temporary color distortion is the worst thing that can go wrong, even though theres a bunch of other stuff to be concerned about.

yes, but you should view the whole thing in proportion. Reading this thread, you might get the idea that tate is such a dangerous thing to do you´d better never try it. But realistically, maybe 5% of all the people using tate experienced serious problems, probably less. All this stuff about static issues, parts designed to carry a weight in one direction only... TV producers are well aware of the actual forces a TV must endure during transportation, even with a "this side up" sign all over the package. They don´t want a large share of TVs being sent back, so in general they will rather invest in a sturdy structure that can handle tate.
Hardware failure like Bloodflower describes can even happen without any tate attempts, so the bottom line maybe goes something like "be aware of the risks, that´s it".

Post by **system11** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:22 am

Sigh. There's always one.

I did say the majority of people will be just fine, and being careful is the thing to do, but great - if you'd like to just brush off the common sense advice and points based on a) talking to someone who works with them and b) personal experience, that's up to you. I'm sure you must certainly know everything, so I won't bother in future.

This is also the same reason I stopped bothering to advise people with regards to PCBs - it's a waste of time, they never listen.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:21 am

bloodflowers wrote: This is also the same reason I stopped bothering to advise people with regards to PCBs - it's a waste of time, they never listen.

If it means anything I do appreciate you taking the time to write up these concerns with tating. I also liked your advice on PSU's.

japtor · Post by **japtor** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:06 am

same here. and i wouldnt mind some pcb advice, seeing that i pretty much have no clue what the hell im doing with my boards in terms of safety/care (or my cab for that matter).

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:44 pm

I'm sure you must certainly know everything, so I won't bother in future.

Where did you get that idea? I´m actually glad you posted all the risks, that´s a very nice disclaimer. And I realize you had bad experiences, so the matter is probably something you don´t take lightly. But, reading your first posting only, the impression of dangers is blown a little out of proportion, I think. It´s always like this, read about the side effects of a medication, and you might get so afraid you don´t even use it anymore, although it would help.
I´d say using a TV in tate mode is a little like crossing a red light. You´re not supposed to do it, you might even die if the worst comes together, but if you´re careful, most of the time you´ll be fine. Ok, it depends on the kind of TV you want to tate, I wouldn´t try it with 29" and larger ones either. Like I wouldn´t try to cross a red light when I´m already in a wheelchair.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:16 am

I was lucky enought to buy a 21 inch Dell TFT recently and it's a snap to rotate it thanks to the handy 90-degree pivot feature.

The problem, of course, is that the monitor's native resolution is 1600x1200 and so image quality suffers when you hook up a Dreamcast or when you are using MAME.

But wtf... you can't have everything I guess.

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:02 am

I found that information to be very... informative, bloodflowers! Thank you! I've been rotating an old 25" television for a couple of months now (about every other weekend or so), and while I've tried to be gentle with it, I'll frequently let it down with sort of a 'tap,' which I'll try to avoid from now on. It's one of those televisions in wooden cabinets, so, it can be tricky at times. I'll definitely give thought to the possibility of jolting components out of place, and I'm glad that you've reminded me that this isn't necessarily a completely safe procedure.

More importantly is how I'll now be extremely-careful when I finally get this other, nicer television working... It's the newer style in plastic casing, and likely much more prone to side-standing instability. Thanks again for the advisory!

Post by **system11** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:28 am

I did try to start a thread on the old board - asking for makes/models of TVs that people have found to work well on their side. I'd like to get a second one myself, and was trying to get recommendations. It's kind of tempting to just make one, I've got a spare arcade monitor in the garage which could be repairable (the one referred to above that went BANG due to a cap solder join failing).

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:41 pm

I have used an Orion 21" TV for about 4 years, 1 year in yoko and tate alternatively, the other 3 years in tate only. Since I always switched the main power supply off when not at home, this switch was used more than it´s supposed to, and now it has the problem of not being able to switch it on quickly after turning it off, sometimes I have to wait a few days. The remedy was returning the TV to yoko mode only, using standby again, and taking the other TV, a Philips 21" model, for tate. I´ve used that for one year in tate now, and it hasn´t given me problems yet. When it does, I´ll go out and get a new tate TV at once. Those 21" things are below 150 Euro new, and I´m taking the quicker process of losing function into account when buying them.
Of course I´m worried a little that the tube might explode into my face while playing, but like you can show a smoker pictures of a cancer lung, or show a racing fan pictures of traffic accident victims... this fear won´t stop me from playing tate, as it means too much to me. Life is full of deadly dangers, you just can´t avoid all of them.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:32 am

icycalm wrote:I was lucky enought to buy a 21 inch Dell TFT recently and it's a snap to rotate it thanks to the handy 90-degree pivot feature.

The problem, of course, is that the monitor's native resolution is 1600x1200 and so image quality suffers when you hook up a Dreamcast or when you are using MAME.

But wtf... you can't have everything I guess.

I just recently got myself an Alienware 20" Flatscreen along with a Bot Alienware PC...do you think you could help me set up a Tate? I've got a ATI Radeon X300 Graphics Card and they said Tate-ing is doable.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:39 pm

That Alienware is a cool-looking monitor.

What sort of help do you need?

Are you having trouble physically setting up the monitor (which should be easy since it has a pivot feature) or is your problem software setup-related? Are you using emulator or are you hooking it up to a console?

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:13 pm

I haven't gotten the PC yet, as it's being shipped to me within the next week. But I want to look into both my options....I have an emulator, but I may consider hooking it up to a system in the future.

japtor · Post by **japtor** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:38 am

in mame youll just have to go to settings and set it accordingly. if you hook it up to whatever system, just hope that it doesnt only have one tate setting, cause it looks like that display only rotates to the right (clockwise). from what i can tell, rotated to the left is the arcade standard. youll end up playing upside down if whatever game doesnt have a flip or invert option.

Stormowl · Post by **Stormowl** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:46 pm

*ahem* back on topic...

i'm also going to voice in agreement with bloodflowers about this: there are added risks if you use your TV for both modes. i have a 19" tv that i've had for awhile, and used it for both tate and hori games. however the last time i tried playing battle garegga i noticed a big discolored spot on the TV...which is now there everytime i try to play in tate, no matter how long i leave the tv unplugged before flipping it. so now the TV is resigned to hori-mode only, and the colors are fine.

from my experience it the best TV's for tate mode are fairly small, around 21" or less.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:33 pm

bloodflowers wrote: Mostly, rotating your TV if the case looks strong and it's not a 32" behemoth, is going to be safe enough - it'll be better to have one you can permanently put on its side, obviously for practical reasons try to get one that will be VERY stable (flat sided). Many people here have been spinning their TVs like it's a sport, without issue.

*waits for X-Treme Tate'ing to get shown on ESPN2*

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:36 am

Kiken wrote:
bloodflowers wrote:Many people here have been spinning their TVs like it's a sport, without issue.
*waits for X-Treme Tate'ing to get shown on ESPN2*

I don't like to reply for no good reason, but, that was simply too funny. It's rare that I truly "LOL" while browsing the Web.

"Next up; The projection TV category... Who will make it without busting a cap? Find out after this short break..."

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:34 pm

Just wondering if anyone can explain or walk me through how to hook up a Game system to a PC monitor or at least a rough explanation? Particularly a PS2 and/or Dreamcast.

D · Post by D » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:46 pm

Yes, my father said too I should have a disclaimer on the side.
He is offcourse right.

But then he uses arguments like: People will sue you when their tv's brake.
And I'm like most people who get advise from their parents about doing something. I'm going like this: "pffffff".

But reading the topic was very informative.
But the main drive behind my site was that no other site anywhere on the web has any info on tate-ing your tv. And I was so glad when I finally foun a solution to tating without color distortion and also the enthousiasm about TATE games in general.

Still if I ever do an update I'll put a disclaimer on their containing the potential hazards that comes with TATE-ing.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:03 am

Nice monitor icycalm!

I myself have an AOC 17" LCD with a rotateable base.
But mine, and I noticed yours as well, rotate clockwise. WTF is up with that??? I can't play Ikaruga in tate mode with it :(

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:22 am

In my experience using SVGA monitors for TATE is much better than a TV due to the squarer edges of the monitor and the crispness that SVGA offers. Probably need a XRGB2 though.

MovingTarget · Post by **MovingTarget** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:04 am

Ok so its all well and good knowing the risks... but what about when it comes down to taking an educated guess on whether your tv is tate-able. I still dont know whether I should tate my TV. Its old and cube shaped with the dimensions of the length of a big microwave...

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:23 am

What a coincidence... actually a few days ago I DID tate a microwave... I forgot there was a turntable inside so it got bumped around...

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:35 pm

I still dont know whether I should tate my TV. Its old and cube shaped with the dimensions of the length of a big microwave...

cube shaped is good. Can you specify how large a big microwave is in inch?
The basic question I´d ask myself is this: IF this TV should break, would I be able to afford a new one at once? When I can answer this with a Yes, I´d just tate the thing.

DeBurgo · Post by **DeBurgo** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:03 pm

Hi, sorry to bump this thread, but I think it really should be stickied or something. Thank you so much it, though.

bloodflowers wrote:Mostly, rotating your TV if the case looks strong and it's not a 32" behemoth, is going to be safe enough - it'll be better to have one you can permanently put on its side, obviously for practical reasons try to get one that will be VERY stable (flat sided). Many people here have been spinning their TVs like it's a sport, without issue.

I've already rotated my 32" behemoth though, and now I'm actually a little scared to touch the thing to put it back. It wasn't hard however, it was actually surprisingly light (lighter than my 19" computer moniter, or at least it felt that way for its bulk). It's not the only TV I have (and in fact it was a free hand-me-down) so, it's just to let you know that I'm not completely nuts. The casing felt fine, but I'm more worried about the aformentioned internal parts that might screw up. I AM being extra-careful however, making sure not to make any bumps.

I'd love to know more information about the model of the TV and how safe/unsafe it is to rotate it, though, if possible. It's a Toshiba, model # CF30F40R. I don't imagine there's any way to safely check the integrity of the monitor myself, is there?

D · Post by D » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:39 am

DeBurgo wrote:Hi, sorry to bump this thread, but I think it really should be stickied or something. Thank you so much it, though.
bloodflowers wrote:Mostly, rotating your TV if the case looks strong and it's not a 32" behemoth, is going to be safe enough - it'll be better to have one you can permanently put on its side, obviously for practical reasons try to get one that will be VERY stable (flat sided). Many people here have been spinning their TVs like it's a sport, without issue.
I've already rotated my 32" behemoth though, and now I'm actually a little scared to touch the thing to put it back. It wasn't hard however, it was actually surprisingly light (lighter than my 19" computer moniter, or at least it felt that way for its bulk). It's not the only TV I have (and in fact it was a free hand-me-down) so, it's just to let you know that I'm not completely nuts. The casing felt fine, but I'm more worried about the aformentioned internal parts that might screw up. I AM being extra-careful however, making sure not to make any bumps.

I'd love to know more information about the model of the TV and how safe/unsafe it is to rotate it, though, if possible. It's a Toshiba, model # CF30F40R. I don't imagine there's any way to safely check the integrity of the monitor myself, is there?

pics please. I'd love to see a big tv tated

shmups.system11.org

A serious note. TVs, on their side (tate)

A serious note. TVs, on their side (tate)

Re: A serious note. TVs, on their side (tate)

Re: A serious note. TVs, on their side (tate)