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 Post subject: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:34 am 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
Posts: 15
My first post here on shmups, and I am clueless on plasmas. I'm a CRT guy through and through, but plasmas are intriguing to me, and I see many people like them for 480p stuff. But I know lag can be an issue..

There's a Pioneer PDP-607CMX for sale near me for $200. The specs looks pretty awesome. It already has VGA, DVI, digital and analog (sync on G) RGB inputs, but I can also get expansion cards (PDA-5003, PDA-5004) similar to a BVM. The 5003 has the RGBHV BNC inputs.

Just wondering if anyone thinks this would be a good pickup. I'd probably try and talk him down to $100, but it comes with an enormous shipping case. The display was used only at expos (hence the shipping case), so it has low hours.

What say you?

Pics of the listing

Manual for the display

Thanks for the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:53 pm 


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Jfonzy wrote:
My first post here on shmups, and I am clueless on plasmas. I'm a CRT guy through and through, but plasmas are intriguing to me, and I see many people like them for 480p stuff. But I know lag can be an issue..

There's a Pioneer PDP-607CMX for sale near me for $200. The specs looks pretty awesome. It already has VGA, DVI, digital and analog (sync on G) RGB inputs, but I can also get expansion cards (PDA-5003, PDA-5004) similar to a BVM. The 5003 has the RGBHV BNC inputs.

Just wondering if anyone thinks this would be a good pickup. I'd probably try and talk him down to $100, but it comes with an enormous shipping case. The display was used only at expos (hence the shipping case), so it has low hours.

What say you?

Pics of the listing

Manual for the display

Thanks for the help.


I love those "roadie cases". The card prices are reasonable ($20) but the input lag is unknown.

I would be hesitant until I saw a Leo Bodnar hooked up to it.

At 220 (with card) your Over half the price of a Vizio d-50 brand new with a proven input lag score of 16ms (hdmi 5 input)

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/vizio-50-cl ... pnEALw_wcB
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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:35 pm 


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Plasma displays resemble CRTs on a couple of aspects (they have phosphors; the picture is updated with flickering - which is good for gaming) but they are still fixed pixel displays, meaning that 240p/480i/480p content will have to be scaled to the panel's native resolution (720p in this case) with unknown results. They may do a really good job at that but conceptually it's not any different than what happens with LCDs (lag will potentially be worse than what you get on LCDs though.. plasma displays weren't generally aimed to gamers).

Personally, I would only consider buying a plasma today if it was a 4:3 display with 480p native resolution, but that's just me.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:52 pm 


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If it has low hours, $200 for a 60" plasma is not bad. Bear in mind theres no tuner, no speakers, but yeah. I'd probably buy it out of sheer curiosity if it was near me. Try to get a better price, of course, but if he doesnt move, its not a bad deal if everything works. 1366x 768 displays are very uncommon these days, or even in the last 3 years of plasma availability.

As far as 240/480p scaling and input lag, sorry but I have no clue! :|

At 131lbs, that thing is monstrous though!

BTW I just viewed 2 different LG 65" (or bigger) 4K OLED sets in person at a Conn's showroom yesterday. First time Ive seen OLED in person. The panel thickness (or lack thereof) was absolutely striking. The picture (running 4K HDR demo loop) was flabbergasting, a AV geeks dream come true. I personally did not see any problems with blurring in motion or ghosting in the loop, and the blacks were pure black, absolutely no minimum luminance. Best picture Ive ever witnessed-- and I read some of the 2017 LG models have input lag as low as 21ms. Outstanding. Have no idea what 240/480/720 upscaling would look like on the set, but yeah, it was TERRIBLY impressive in person. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:54 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 931
I also saw my first oled tv a couple months ago, and i almost fell over. nothing else Is even close to OLED.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:42 pm 



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 7543
As it stands, it's just LG & Sony that make/sell OLED tvs for right now. Samsung's still on the fence in regards to making/selling 'em to the general public.

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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:13 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Best picture Ive ever witnessed-- and I read some of the 2017 LG models have input lag as low as 21ms. Outstanding. Have no idea what 240/480/720 upscaling would look like on the set, but yeah, it was TERRIBLY impressive in person. :mrgreen:

I went to have a look at the LGs recently and was also blown away by the demo on display - they had a bright rotating object on the screen against a black background and the blacks were so deep it looked like the object was almost floating in the black space independently of the screen.

But then I saw normal content being displayed on another one and didn't like the image at all - there was lots of black crush. I asked the sales guy and he agreed and said he preferred plasmas because of that. I had a search and apparently this is a well known problem:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2579537-lg-oleds-how-enhance-near-black-detail.html

Apparently this can be mitigated a bit by careful calibration. I can't afford an OLED at the moment but I'm happy to wait a couple of years to see what Sony can do with those panels in terms of producing a good semi-affordable mid range set with their own processing..


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:37 pm 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
Posts: 15
So I went and checked it out.. it is a beast. But it looks awesome and can potentially do so many things!

240p via RGBS didn't work.. manual says supported resolutions start at 480i and go up from there.

It has the PDA-5003 card installed in it which makes the full input lineup:
- VGA
- DVI
- S-Video
- Composite
- RGBHV (manual also says adapters can be used to do component over RGB)

It also has the speakers. And they of course sound great.

I will admit I was initially excited for the RGB capability, but then later bummed that it can't do 240p. Well, it DID display it, but it was all pink and overscanned (see above link to pic). Is there a way to trick these displays in to displaying 240p without having to buy an upscaler?

Outside of my beloved 240p, this would be an amazing display for PC and 6th + gen consoles. I just can't decide what I want to do! $200 is a good amount of money and WHERE THE HELL AM I GOING TO PUT IT!


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:21 pm 


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from that pic it Looks like it supports 240p fine. That input is set to the incorect color space. Should be able to fix that in the menu. Also it looks like aspect rato/ zoom mode needs to be changed. does it come with a remote?


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:01 am 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Blair wrote:
from that pic it Looks like it supports 240p fine. That input is set to the incorect color space. Should be able to fix that in the menu. Also it looks like aspect rato/ zoom mode needs to be changed. does it come with a remote?


Yes it's got the remote. According to the manual on page 62 it doesn't outright say it supports 240p. But I'm like you.. it looks like it does if I just find the right setting. Need to dig in the manual a bit more. Or maybe there is a seperate service manual to check out.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:44 am 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 931
Most TVS and manuals dont list 240p support. Your Rgb input is probably set to do component video not RGB. It needs to be changed in the menu.

Sony doesnt make any Oled TVS. they buy the panels from LG.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:44 am 


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mvsfan wrote:
Sony doesnt make any Oled TVS. they buy the panels from LG.

Sure, I was saying that now they've started making OLED TVs using LG's panels they'll be applying their own picture processing. Some reviewers have suggested that could well result in better overall TVs as Sony excel at that. Anyway this is off topic, apologies.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:52 am 


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Agree with others that it should support 240p based on that pic. Did you try to feed it 240p over component?


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:22 pm 


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Xer Xian wrote:
(they have phosphors; the picture is updated with flickering - which is good for gaming)

That's a bit of a bold statement, flickering is good for gaming under specific conditions, not by default because of the panel's technology... (although yeah, plasma's dithering did better by default)
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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:40 pm 


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Jfonzy wrote:
it doesn't outright say it supports 240p. But I'm like you.. it looks like it does if I just find the right setting. Need to dig in the manual a bit more. Or maybe there is a seperate service manual to check out.


well, I don't think any display manufacturer ever acknowledge 240p as an official supported resolution (Even though that's what most game consoles used before the PlayStation 2 generation). usually it was just included as whatever was in the range of 15Hz. (240p/480i) some broadcast equipment refers to 240p as NTSC without flicker or "flicker free". videogame companies like Sony and Nintendo have their own terminology for what the different resolutions were called. that doesn't really matter for this discussion though.

That display obviously supports 240p resolution we just don't know if it processes it properly (for that you would need to test a few games out, or use the 240p test suite, from junker HQ)

as far as the pink tinit goes there's only a few things that can cause that. most commonly when connecting to displays capable of both RGB and component video (YUV) if the input or display is set to the wrong color space, that's what it will look like.

Here's some pics of my Sony monitor doing the same thing when being fed an RGB signal, when the color space setting is correct, it will display the right colors.

https://imgur.com/a/ppGHa (gallery)

Spoiler: show
Image


Spoiler: show
Image


as you can see, RGB video in component mode looks pink (while component video in RGB mode would be green). so that's the most likely solution.

the other possibility is that the Green cable is damaged or not fully connected. and the most painful and hopefully least likely scenario is that the green input jack is damage or faulty.

Hopefully you were able see content displaying on the screen with its proper colors at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:04 pm 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Blair wrote:
That display obviously supports 240p resolution we just don't know if it processes it properly (for that you would need to test a few games out, or use the 240p test suite, from junker HQ)

as far as the pink tinit goes there's only a few things that can cause that. most commonly when connecting to displays capable of both RGB and component video (YUV) if the input or display is set to the wrong color space, that's what it will look like.

the other possibility is that the Green cable is damaged or not fully connected.


I've got the 240p test suite, what can I do there to ensure it is processing correctly? I've found the color decoding setting in the manual (pg 125), so I will definitely check that. I tested my cables at home on my PVM and they are still good, so we can rule that out.

Josh128 wrote:
Agree with others that it should support 240p based on that pic. Did you try to feed it 240p over component?


Not yet. I have the RCA adapters to give it a whirl, but I don't have any component cables for any of my 240p stuff. I could (and should) try composite, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:33 pm 


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@Jfonzy

the Drop Shadow Test, and the Striped Sprite Test are usually the best indicators of proper 240p handling. http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=240p_test_suite#Drop_Shadow_Test

but even if the display fails one or both of those tests it's not in the end of the world, it's just that certain effects in different games will be displayed incorrectly, like the flashing emeralds in Sonic 2 or Demitri's glowing aura in dark stalkers. Effects like that will look a little weird but for the most part the games should look and play fine.

you also want to make sure that the pixel art has good defined edges, and that graphics aren't being heavily interpolated (looking overly round and squishy during movement). that would be the biggest issue any processor has in badly handling 240p. the scroll test would probably be the best way of checking that. http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=240p_test_suite#Scroll_Test

but even if the display does a bad job with 240p you could just get a video processor or line doubler to fix that issue. So you always have options.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:14 pm 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
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@Blair

Thanks for all the help, really appreciate it!


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:25 pm 


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Location: San Jose, CA
Newer plasmas run at "600hz" and other absurd high refresh rates because they use temporal dithering to achieve more colors and smoother gradients. Beware older plasmas that temporally dither only at the refresh rate, as they will have pretty annoying artifacts when anything scrolls or moves about. This includes the famous saught-after PDP-V401 / PDP-V402 it's a turd, sorry


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:05 pm 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Well I went back for a second test, and 240p displayed just fine with some tweaks to the color decoding setting and the picture size. I thought I was going to have to go in to integrator mode and turn on the underscan setting, but just a simple picture ratio selection worked this time. The drop shadow test works as long as I move the shadow – if it stands still it does not flicker like it should. It's not a dealbreaker for me, because everything else about the picture is amazing. I agreed to give the guy what he's asking for, $200, because that's still a pretty good value for this display, and he's been really awesome about letting me come over and testing stuff. I'll update when I get it here and figure out what I'm going to do about mounting it…


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:58 pm 


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Sounds like you made a good deal!

I still love the picture on my Sammy plasmas, very CRT-esque.

Just a final comment about the OLED sets I saw earlier-- they had some of the new QLED sets in the same showroom, the QLED looks pretty good, very good viewing angles for LCD, but the OLED sets still smash them. No comparison...


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:28 pm 



Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 270
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:
..the OLED sets still smash


Have you been able to see them render any 2D scrolling motion yet? They are still using sample-and-hold and though I want to believe, am quite wary.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:28 pm 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Only 240 hours!


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:31 pm 


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We want to see pics of the plasma displaying 240p consoles hooked straight to it :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:59 pm 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
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FinalBaton wrote:
We want to see pics of the plasma displaying 240p consoles hooked straight to it :mrgreen:


Will do- later tonight!


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:33 pm 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Overall I am very happy so far. The Genesis RGBs cables are the only ones I have, so I can't test RGB on other consoles yet.

It's not shown here, but I did test the PS2 over component via RGB inputs. There was noticeable lag. Maybe if I had the component video card (PDA-5004) it would not be as bad, but no way am I giving up the analog RGB video card (PDA-5003) already installed.

240p over RGB does very well, despite some pixel smoothing. Extremely low lag, if any. I am not a lag guru. Flickering from explosion effects works as it should.

240p over composite was typical composite, with the NES looking better than the N64. One day I'll have all RGB consoles and composite won't even matter.

Here are some (not great) videos of some really basic tests:


And here is a gallery of images showing the display front and back, as well the lineup of inputs, and then some screenshots:



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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:16 am 



Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 270
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Congrats on a great pickup. I'd pay $200 for a Pio 60" any damn day.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:17 am 


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The way those DOS games are rendered on screen makes them look like some ancient tapestries. Did you activate some filter or something?

And yeah, after all $200 is very reasonable for a high-end Plasma with low hours. I can't find much information online but I guess it's the professional version of the PDP-607XD (7th gen Kuro)? Can't get much better than this to play last-gen games.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:36 pm 



Joined: 14 Sep 2016
Posts: 15
Xer Xian wrote:
The way those DOS games are rendered on screen makes them look like some ancient tapestries. Did you activate some filter or something?

And yeah, after all $200 is very reasonable for a high-end Plasma with low hours. I can't find much information online but I guess it's the professional version of the PDP-607XD (7th gen Kuro)? Can't get much better than this to play last-gen games.


No filter, just "dot by dot" screen size setting. It really does look incredible, like you are playing on a really detailed needlework or something.

I have yet to try Xbox 360 or PS3. Unfortunately there was noticeable lag doing PS2 component through RGB using RCA>BNC adapters. I tried PS4 HDMI using HDMI>DVI adapter, But have had weird results there.. may have to find a magical setting for DVI to get that to work correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Plasma people: Pioneer 60" PDP-607CMX?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:28 pm 


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Posts: 1937
Location: Québec City
That's some pretty nice upscaling of 240p from that display! I wonder if all the CMX Pioneer display perform like this with 240p...

Haven't seen a 607CMX model around here but I've seen other CMX ones


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