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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:23 am 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
That makes sense, I have no clue how I'd measure that though.

Just connect a 75 ohm resistor from the signal to ground and measure the voltage across it


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:14 am 


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Unseen wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
That makes sense, I have no clue how I'd measure that though.

Just connect a 75 ohm resistor from the signal to ground and measure the voltage across it



I want to make sure I'm testing csync properly myself, so if you wouldn't mind clarifying/correcting me of my understanding below:

In order to test csync on the end of the cable, I'd need it hooked into the console, the console running an all white screen, run a 75 ohm resistor from csync to ground terminals on the cable, and then finally test either ends of the resistor with my multimeter, correct?
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:52 am 


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From Everdrives to CSYNC measurements :) Very good 8)

@FBX: CSYNC is indepent of the image content.

Unseen wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
That makes sense, I have no clue how I'd measure that though.

Just connect a 75 ohm resistor from the signal to ground and measure the voltage across it

If the signal is offset free (as it should be) he will measure 0V.
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:49 am 


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borti4938 wrote:

@FBX: CSYNC is indepent of the image content.


I'm just asking for a clear and concise procedure for testing the csync line with my multimeter. I don't want to be doing it the wrong way and misunderstand the readings I'm getting.
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:11 am 


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In my point of view: no way with a DMM to have it reliable. The DMM just tell you something about the DC component but nothing about the pulse strength.
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:30 pm 



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Location: Sydney, Australia
strygo wrote:
In the case of Krikzz, his argument is a strong one: the devices have been on the market for many years and have likely sold into the tens of thousands. If there were widespread issues caused by the designs, it would be fair to expect to see greater evidence of problems. Surely a few people would have connected the dots that the console they use died and they make heavy use of a flash cart. These reports had not materialized until the recent blog post. Now, we are all affected by confirmation bias and shaking that will be very tough. Every single console that has touched a flash cart that died must have been caused by design issues, right? As a point of contrast, compare Krikzz's quality to that of the original Xbox.


Unless there's something I've missed, he merely dismissed the problem. He presented no technical justification for why his devices should not follow the electrical spec. Where are the results of the tests or calculations he made that show that violating voltage rating would not cause damage? That extra power dissipation would not be significant? Form a technical perspective it's not a strong argument, there's no argument there at all.

In a computer system, the bus is a shared resource that all the parts of the system use to communicate with the CPU. If a device is shitting on the bus (as they say), they behaviour of the whole system becomes less predictable, less reliable. It can cause games not to run correctly under certain conditions (temperature, motherboard revision, cartridge age) or incompatibilities which can be hard to identify and isolate. The small savings made from leaving out logic conversion hardware are quickly lost in times spent on customer service trying to resolve these problems. Krikzz probably found this out first hand some time between the release of the Turbo EverDrive and Turbo EverDrive v2. It also places unnecessary restrictions on others who are making hardware for old consoles who have to share the bus with one of these things.

tjstogy wrote:
As an aside– I think Krikzz could use more competition. The SD2SNES is a far superior product to the N64 everdrive (I have version 3) and the mega everdrive (I have the x7). The menus alone are night and day. I love the in game reset on the SD2SNES, which is missing on the 64 everdrive- and the in game reset on the mega everdrive doesn’t work with a 32x attachment, nor for master system games. Basically, they’re all amazing products– but competition is sometimes what takes things to a different level. Right now Krikzz is like the only game in town- and someone pointed out that this is a side hobby for him— if this is a indeed his side hobby, it might be the most lucrative hobby in existence....


You underestimate the amount of work required to create these things. It's certainly no hobby. At the speed at which new hardware & software comes out and a rough idea of market size, I'd guess there's probably the equivalent of two people working full time on R&D, as well as another managing production/sales/service.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:40 pm 



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While I think of it, here are two more examples of bad hardware not respecting bus voltage.

  • X-ARCADE 5IN1 Adapter
  • Toodles MC Cthulhu

The Dreamcast has a 3.3V controller bus with a 5V power supply (just like USB). These two controller adapters drive the bus with 5V signals without even any resistors to limit the current. Avoid them for Dreamcast use if possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:50 pm 


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FBX wrote:
In order to test csync on the end of the cable, I'd need it hooked into the console, the console running an all white screen, run a 75 ohm resistor from csync to ground terminals on the cable, and then finally test either ends of the resistor with my multimeter, correct?

If it's a CSync signal, the image shown by the console shouldn't matter - but a multimeter unfortunately isn't up to the job, because you want to know the level difference between the short sync pulses and the "idle level" of the signal. If it is AC-coupled (as it often is), you would mostly see an average of 0V as borti has pointed out - you need an oscilloscope or (if such a thing even exists) a meter with the ability to measure Vpp for signals with very short peaks.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:59 pm 



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So which flashcarts are affected?

Can CSync signals reduce the lifespan of a console?


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:32 pm 


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viletim wrote:
While I think of it, here are two more examples of bad hardware not respecting bus voltage.

  • X-ARCADE 5IN1 Adapter
  • Toodles MC Cthulhu

The Dreamcast has a 3.3V controller bus with a 5V power supply (just like USB). These two controller adapters drive the bus with 5V signals without even any resistors to limit the current. Avoid them for Dreamcast use if possible.


That reminds me of my Toodles TE Kitty which refused to work in one (well, two) particular SNES games: Super Double Dragon and its Japanese counterpart, Return of Double Dragon. I've since learned not to try with them because I'd need to reflash my TE Kitty firmware just to get the stick working again. So this voltage issue is the reason why? What makes Super Double Dragon so special?


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:43 pm 



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FBX wrote:
I'm just asking for a clear and concise procedure for testing the csync line with my multimeter. I don't want to be doing it the wrong way and misunderstand the readings I'm getting.

I'd recommend getting an oscilloscope for that. I use a cheap $25 DIY one from eBay. It isn't perfect, but it's enough to measure Vpp sync and video levels to verify that my cables are correct, and also enough to measure my homemade power supply to ensure clean power is being delivered under load to my consoles.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:40 pm 



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I dunno if any of this holds water but look at stardusts post here about the article.

http://nintendoage.com/forum/messagevie ... =76#bottom


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:17 am 


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zredgemz wrote:
I dunno if any of this holds water but look at stardusts post here about the article.

http://nintendoage.com/forum/messagevie ... =76#bottom



I read that. And the persons rebuttal is kind of an lol. I like how René's article has been reduced to fear mongering and gross exaggerations. It's pretty clear that the point was lost.
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:34 am 



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I think this whole situation with the creator could be resolved, at least people now know the possible danger.

I plan to do some digging on who helped design some Homebrewers PCB's.

Does anyone here know if the everdrive creator has helped design any homebrew PCB's?


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:51 am 


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Unseen wrote:
FBX wrote:
In order to test csync on the end of the cable, I'd need it hooked into the console, the console running an all white screen, run a 75 ohm resistor from csync to ground terminals on the cable, and then finally test either ends of the resistor with my multimeter, correct?

If it's a CSync signal, the image shown by the console shouldn't matter - but a multimeter unfortunately isn't up to the job, because you want to know the level difference between the short sync pulses and the "idle level" of the signal. If it is AC-coupled (as it often is), you would mostly see an average of 0V as borti has pointed out - you need an oscilloscope or (if such a thing even exists) a meter with the ability to measure Vpp for signals with very short peaks.


I see. What I have is a Fluke 115. It's a pretty damn good mm, but I doubt it can do this as you say.
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:09 am 


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No underestimating- I think they are incredible products. I know it's not a hobby, rather a full time (and lucrative) business. Someone else said it was just a hobby of his, which again... if I had the abilities to make and sell tons of whatever for hundreds of dollars, I would totally take up that "hobby" too.
Also, I wonder why ikari doesn't want to get into making other flash carts?

viletim wrote:

tjstogy wrote:
As an aside– I think Krikzz could use more competition. The SD2SNES is a far superior product to the N64 everdrive (I have version 3) and the mega everdrive (I have the x7). The menus alone are night and day. I love the in game reset on the SD2SNES, which is missing on the 64 everdrive- and the in game reset on the mega everdrive doesn’t work with a 32x attachment, nor for master system games. Basically, they’re all amazing products– but competition is sometimes what takes things to a different level. Right now Krikzz is like the only game in town- and someone pointed out that this is a side hobby for him— if this is a indeed his side hobby, it might be the most lucrative hobby in existence....


You underestimate the amount of work required to create these things. It's certainly no hobby. At the speed at which new hardware & software comes out and a rough idea of market size, I'd guess there's probably the equivalent of two people working full time on R&D, as well as another managing production/sales/service.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:08 pm 


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Just wanted to say one thing to all those freaking out: relax.

I've always been a perfectionist regarding my own consoles' power supplies, cables, etc. and, as time passed, I've investigated and got to know more about how this stuff works and realized that most of the circuitry we're talking about (console/TV related) are incredibly tolerant and you have to go WAY out of spec to do any serious damage.

I believe all this is kinda overblown, but as items like arcade PCBs are getting scarcer in the market, with some of them sent to their doom due to bad handling and lack of proper, regular servicing, I understand some of the concerns.

Of course, using a voltage regulator instead of diodes to obtain a voltage drop is better, but in 99,999999% of real cases scenario it will be absolutely harmless, even in the long run.
Same applies for other cases.

Just my 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:45 am 


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Krikkz response :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx3M9Z4 ... e=youtu.be
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:50 pm 


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That's not really a response, all it shows is that an Everdrive MD causes something (the console?) to consume roughly 10% more power.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:56 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
That's not really a response, all it shows is that an Everdrive MD causes something (the console?) to consume roughly 10% more power.


Exactly. Some components on the ED MD are rated at 3V. You are pushing 5V into them. Are they supposed to consume more power than the 5V ROM chips!?! Shouldn't they consumes less?? The FPGA should consume more power but that could be the 10% delta.

It's not about power consumption. It's about theoretical voltage limits of IC's and what happens when you run them outside those limits.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:04 pm 


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You can look at the datasheet of said components and answer your own questions. They're pretty detailed and quite easy to read for someone not into electronics.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:24 pm 


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viletim wrote:
While I think of it, here are two more examples of bad hardware not respecting bus voltage.

  • X-ARCADE 5IN1 Adapter
  • Toodles MC Cthulhu

The Dreamcast has a 3.3V controller bus with a 5V power supply (just like USB). These two controller adapters drive the bus with 5V signals without even any resistors to limit the current. Avoid them for Dreamcast use if possible.


Oh no not the cthulhu too :(


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:48 pm 


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Rene's response :
https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/13/ac ... -mismatch/
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:12 am 



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fafangus wrote:


Good response. But I'm a tad confused now..

The resistor / diode that runs out of spec is in the ED. So it is the ED that will potentially fail. Not the console. Unless some damage might happen to components that try to drive 5V but never reach.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:21 am 



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So which Everdrives are affected?


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:27 am 


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Read the article... in the very first post.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:31 am 


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leonk wrote:
fafangus wrote:


Good response. But I'm a tad confused now..

The resistor / diode that runs out of spec is in the ED. So it is the ED that will potentially fail. Not the console. Unless some damage might happen to components that try to drive 5V but never reach.

Not necessarily. With the bus being dragged down, the current is sourced from somewhere, and I expect that it's going to be from one of the 5V devices.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:24 pm 



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http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2017/0 ... o_consoles
A article about Rene's article, Nintendolife is a big deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:30 pm 


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It's a disappointing article. The headline suggests that Everdrives destroy your console and their picture choice is extremely poor. Out of the 5 flash carts that are visible, 1 isn't affected at all (ED64), and 2 had no issues (EDN8, SD2SNES). I don't feel sorry for krikzz, but it's come to a point where the Everdrive brand took quite some damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:06 pm 



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I'm still gonna buy Everdrives regardless, but I hope Krikzz sorts whatever problem there is out.


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