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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:24 pm 


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Krikzz responded to my direct query, but it didn't really shed light on the specific issue raised about the X7:

Quote:
There is no any dangerous for you console or your cart. Today, or even after 10 years it still will working. Any everdrive safe to use with any console.
Those article on dbElectronics make a lot of rumors, but it is nothing more than author guesses. No any facts in those article, only guesses, but facts, from other side, refute guesses of author. Also he criticized PCB design, because they do not have ground plane, as he said. This is nonsense! If he would be little bit observant and would look on back side of PCB, then he would seen massive ground plane. I would not take seriously words of man who even did not looked carefully on the subject of his critics, before than express critics.

Rummors is the bad thing, someone says something and it's begins... One my friend commented article on dbElectronics in sarcastic manner: Well, now all will know that your daughter is slut, whatever you say, even if you don not have daughter, who care...


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:37 pm 


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Gotta say that I'm more disappointed in Kirkzz' response to the criticism (deny everything, resort to personal attacks on the critic's children) than the subject of the criticism (the potential shortcomings in the Everdrive products).

What Krikzz should have said: "I appreciate the feedback, but respectfully disagree that my current products will cause any problems or damage. Nonetheless, I've made improvements to address the criticism going forward."

What Krikzz actually said: "You don't know what you're talking about and your infant daughter is a slut."

WTF, man.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:40 pm 



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based krikzz


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:49 pm 



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I don't think that dbelectronics has lied about the facts, the facts being that the everdrives run off 3.7volts and consoles (with the exception of the n64 which outputs the proper voltage) output 5volts. This puts constant excess wear on both the carts and the consoles because that extra charge needs to be dissipated somehow. I would bet we are talking about marginally shortening the lifespan of the console but the fact is that margin still exists and the design flaw should be addressed.

Pretending this margin does not exist is imo a dick move by Krikzz. Yes he runs his own business and if he admitted to a design flaw it could be a massive headache for him as people could try to get him to repair consoles that may or may not have broken because of his products, it could even put him under depending on how bad things get but he should be honest and admit the devices are slightly out of spec and may slightly shorten the lifespan of your console and as such have new models coming out to address the problem. He should also offer a buyback program for EDs in good condition with the design flaw and sell them at discounted prices to people that are not concerned about the possible slight impact on lifespan. He should not try to pass off science as "just a rumor". The devices are out of continual operational spec and that is harmful however slightly and the difference between 3.7 and 5 volts isn't just words.

Anyways from what I have made out:
N64 Everdrive - Console outputs proper voltage
Turbo Everdrive V2 (I hope this means V2.5) - Built properly
Sd2snes - Built properly
N8 Everdrive - Built properly
Gb-X/GBA Everdrive - Built properly (according to Krikzz)

Mega Everdrive X7 - only Everdrive with the problem except for the super, master, and gamegear eds but all of those are inferior versions of other eds so I don't own them and I'm not concerned about them.

So when the new version comes out I'll pick up a Mega Everdrive x7 v2 and call it a day.

Oddly enough I also found out my genesis cable from retroconsoleaccessories is also out of spec so my genesis appears to just be frying everything on both ends lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:52 pm 


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Quote:
What Krikzz actually said: "You don't know what you're talking about and your infant daughter is a slut."


That's not what he said though is it? it's a bit lost in translation but he said that someone said that sarcastically but now a rumour is started and no matter what you say, your daughter is a slut (even if you don't have a daughter).
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:59 pm 



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BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
What Krikzz actually said: "You don't know what you're talking about and your infant daughter is a slut."


That's not what he said though is it? it's a bit lost in translation but he said that someone said that sarcastically but now a rumour is started and no matter what you say, your daughter is a slut (even if you don't have a daughter).


Yea, he tried to explain how rumors work and English isn't his first language. He certainly was not saying someone's infant daughter was a slut. If I had to try to explain to a bunch of excited fanboys how complex electrical components handled voltage inputs in a second language you can bet your ass I wouldn't make any sense at all so I think it is complete bs to try to paint him as some kind of monster that calls infants sluts because he didn't use 100% proper English even though you can clearly tell what he is saying. Also Does Db even have an infant daughter? Pretty sure this is just an example at random.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:19 pm 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
What Krikzz actually said: "You don't know what you're talking about and your infant daughter is a slut."


That's not what he said though is it? it's a bit lost in translation but he said that someone said that sarcastically but now a rumour is started and no matter what you say, your daughter is a slut (even if you don't have a daughter).


A fair point, but it doesn't really change the tone of the rest of that message, does it? He casts aspersions on René's qualifications and ridicules his efforts instead of doing the sort of response that I suggest he should have done. Even if you cut off the last bit entirely, it's still a very disappointing response. He could have basically just given a statement that would have satisfied most people and ended the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:38 pm 


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Wolf_ wrote:
Oddly enough I also found out my genesis cable from retroconsoleaccessories is also out of spec so my genesis appears to just be frying


So... Are those lady's cables killing my XRGB-1 and OSSC? :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:42 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
What Krikzz actually said: "You don't know what you're talking about and your infant daughter is a slut."


That's not what he said though is it? it's a bit lost in translation but he said that someone said that sarcastically but now a rumour is started and no matter what you say, your daughter is a slut (even if you don't have a daughter).


A fair point, but it doesn't really change the tone of the rest of that message, does it? He casts aspersions on René's qualifications and ridicules his efforts instead of doing the sort of response that I suggest he should have done. Even if you cut off the last bit entirely, it's still a very disappointing response. He could have basically just given a statement that would have satisfied most people and ended the issue.


I agree. Even bringing up the analogy was in poor taste on his part, and that is independent of any language barriers. I'd rather he address the points from a technical aspect. Explain exactly what's going on with the boards in question, confirming whether or not said bus lines are not being properly translated, and move forward with new board revisions having the corrections. Since the SD2SNES got the golden seal of approval, that means it's not something hard to figure out.
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:45 pm 


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Blair wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Oddly enough I also found out my genesis cable from retroconsoleaccessories is also out of spec so my genesis appears to just be frying


So... Are those lady's cables killing my XRGB-1 and OSSC? :shock:


It depends on what you've got inside them. Whether you see an amp board or not, there does need to be a 470 Ohm resistor on the csync line, and adding in a cap after that protects the Genesis from damage as well. Also I don't know the stress limitations of the OSSC, but the Framemeister is getting way too much voltage from the csync line without that attenuation.
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:51 pm 


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FBX wrote:
Blair wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Oddly enough I also found out my genesis cable from retroconsoleaccessories is also out of spec so my genesis appears to just be frying


So... Are those lady's cables killing my XRGB-1 and OSSC? :shock:


It depends on what you've got inside them. Whether you see an amp board or not, there does need to be a 470 Ohm resistor on the csync line, and adding in a cap after that protects the Genesis from damage as well. Also I don't know the stress limitations of the OSSC, but the Framemeister is getting way too much voltage from the csync line without that attenuation.


When did you buy the cables? I just bought mine like a week and half ago and she won't answer my emails on this. I wouldn't want to damage my Shinybow SB-2840. I don't know if opening up the scart voids the warranty with her.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:54 pm 



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FBX wrote:
Blair wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Oddly enough I also found out my genesis cable from retroconsoleaccessories is also out of spec so my genesis appears to just be frying


So... Are those lady's cables killing my XRGB-1 and OSSC? :shock:


It depends on what you've got inside them. Whether you see an amp board or not, there does need to be a 470 Ohm resistor on the csync line, and adding in a cap after that protects the Genesis from damage as well. Also I don't know the stress limitations of the OSSC, but the Framemeister is getting way too much voltage from the csync line without that attenuation.


Here is the full vid:
https://youtu.be/khl6x0S_bV0

tl;dr is that the xrgb expects ~2.1v for a SHORT TERM MAXIMUM voltage on the analogue input and boosted csync is sending considerably more than that (up to 5volts). I haven't looked at the ossc tolerances as I don't own one.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:05 pm 


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The OSSC documentation says it supports 75ohm sync (and specifically says it does NOT support TTL sync) on the AV1 (SCART) input, and it says that it *requires* TTL sync for AV3 (VGA) even when doing RGBS (not just RGBHV, which for VGA is TTL by spec).


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:26 pm 


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FBX wrote:
First I need to apologize for the brain fart, I meant I checked my SNES and Genesis cables. I use the SNES cables on my NESRGB NES, which uses a SNES multi-out port.

At any rate, I tested with a multimeter and found it's very unlikely there's a resistor on the console end of the cables. On the SNES, I got a reading of 4.6V, and on the Genesis a reading of 4.28V. I added in the resistor on both, and they worked perfectly when I plugged them back into the Framemeister.


Any recommendations for common SNES games to look at with a mostly white starting screen before I get to checking later tonight?

EDIT: I was getting consistent voltages regardless of what was on-screen measuring between ground pins and the HSync pin (I'm using DSUB connectors), so I don't know what I was doing wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:32 am 


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Watch that :
http://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic ... 9#msg51279

An old thread found by Eke on the Krikkz forum
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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:22 pm 



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No doubt that kritzz has to address the new negative attention the ED line of multicarts has been recently getting. I think he has his work cut out because of multiple reasons:

- language barrier - English is not his native language.
- this is a hobby turn small profit business for him (Wonder how Kevtris would handle a fundamental design flaw if one was found in Hi Def NES, or retroUSB, or Tim W or ...)
- there is a lot of ED clones coming out of China! People need to also take that into account

I think the best we can hope for is acknowledgment that there is a problem. Tell people that it's probably not going to effect most customers. Those that are worried can send in their ED for 30% discount on newer versions.

It's a hobby. We learn everyday. lets not burn the guys moving the hobby forward. Without these guys we would still have floppy based multicarts and RGB amps made of capacitors and resistors only. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:30 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
What Krikzz should have said: "I appreciate the feedback, but respectfully disagree that my current products will cause any problems or damage. Nonetheless, I've made improvements to address the criticism going forward."

What I don't understand about this whole thing is why he can't at least do that. Let alone why people would defend not fixing it. Every console to touch an Everdrive hasn't caught on fire or exploded but that's no reason to ignore something easily fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:35 pm 



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He actually said just that in his first post! new versions of ED will be out soon to address the issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:50 pm 


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Quote:
EDIT: I was getting consistent voltages regardless of what was on-screen measuring between ground pins and the HSync pin (I'm using DSUB connectors), so I don't know what I was doing wrong.

with clean composite sync, that's alright. With other sync types (luma, composite video, but also SoG, so even with TTL levels) it makes a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:51 pm 



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This dust up reminds me a lot of the Toyota breaking debacle a number of years ago. What began as a few disconnected reports of uncontrolled acceleration snowballed into a massive PR nightmare for Toyota. In the end, a combination of user error (people stacking after-market floor mats on existing ones) and confirmation bias (suddenly any crash of a Toyota was examined for potential connection to the reported problem) was the true culprit. Toyota, to their credit, continued to increase their quality and likely made enhancements that they wouldn't have because of the situation.

In the case of Krikzz, his argument is a strong one: the devices have been on the market for many years and have likely sold into the tens of thousands. If there were widespread issues caused by the designs, it would be fair to expect to see greater evidence of problems. Surely a few people would have connected the dots that the console they use died and they make heavy use of a flash cart. These reports had not materialized until the recent blog post. Now, we are all affected by confirmation bias and shaking that will be very tough. Every single console that has touched a flash cart that died must have been caused by design issues, right? As a point of contrast, compare Krikzz's quality to that of the original Xbox.

I admit that I don't have a background in electrical engineering, so I can't easily assess the impact of the claims being made. I do build software products for a living though, and I can say that any commercial endeavor is a series of compromises. Factoring in the cost of development, the price the market will bear, and the resources you have available will lead you to do different things at different stages of your existence for different customers. Krikzz seems to be committed to developing better and better products as per his constantly evolving and improving product line - this has been the case for years. Surely the designs he's doing now are better than the ones he did when he was a one man team. I'm sure the designs of tomorrow will be better still.

There is also a massive gulf between theory and practice. If electrical theory can be shown in tandem with actual evidence of real wear and tear on devices, that is compelling and should be taken seriously. Otherwise, it reminds me of the early oughts rage of making sure that webpages were XHTML compliant even though all browsers at the time could easily handle malformed HTML markup just fine. Significant energy was invested in an endeavor that just didn't matter.

In summary: I see a lot of FUD being thrown around by a lot of people. Everyone should question the facts that exist. Everyone should push Krikzz to keep making better products. Everyone should also question the motives of dbElectronics. As Van Jones might say, right now, this whole thing seems like a big nothing burger to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:10 pm 



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The lack of data makes Krikzz's point completely moot. We'd need to see a sufficient sampling of systems running Everdrives and an equal number not. Then they would need to be run in like conditions (same amount of time, same ambient temp., etc...).

leonk wrote:
He actually said just that in his first post! new versions of ED will be out soon to address the issues.

That's good news.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:43 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
EDIT: I was getting consistent voltages regardless of what was on-screen measuring between ground pins and the HSync pin (I'm using DSUB connectors), so I don't know what I was doing wrong.

with clean composite sync, that's alright. With other sync types (luma, composite video, but also SoG, so even with TTL levels) it makes a difference.


Ah, that makes sense. I think I was getting around 2.2V, which doesn't sound exactly right but also doesn't sound like cause for alarm like FBX's 4.2V+ readings (then again, maybe he was using composite video sync)


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:43 pm 



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What's wrong with retro_accessories_cables?


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:11 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
I think I was getting around 2.2V, which doesn't sound exactly right but also doesn't sound like cause for alarm like FBX's 4.2V+ readings

Sync in RGBS SCART should be 300mV (or 0.3V) if you go by the standard. When you measure the voltage make sure that it's under load. If you just measure the voltage on an unconnected SCART cable it will be higher than when in use.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:23 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
What's wrong with retro_accessories_cables?


In the context of this conversation (which is pretty far off-topic...) it's improper attenuation to change the sync load from TTL to 75ohm.

blizzz wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
I think I was getting around 2.2V, which doesn't sound exactly right but also doesn't sound like cause for alarm like FBX's 4.2V+ readings

Sync in RGBS SCART should be 300mV (or 0.3V) if you go by the standard. When you measure the voltage make sure that it's under load. If you just measure the voltage on an unconnected SCART cable it will be higher than when in use.


I measured with the console turned on, between ground pins and the HSync pin on the DSub connectors (passing RGBS, not RGBHV). So that's pretty worrisome...


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:15 pm 


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FBX wrote:
Blair wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Oddly enough I also found out my genesis cable from retroconsoleaccessories is also out of spec so my genesis appears to just be frying


So... Are those lady's cables killing my XRGB-1 and OSSC? :shock:


It depends on what you've got inside them. Whether you see an amp board or not, there does need to be a 470 Ohm resistor on the csync line, and adding in a cap after that protects the Genesis from damage as well. Also I don't know the stress limitations of the OSSC, but the Framemeister is getting way too much voltage from the csync line without that attenuation.
After reading all this, I decided to open my genesis 2 cable from retroconsoleaccessories.
I bought my cables about 1-2 years ago and it does have a amp board in place and is measuring about 460 Ohm resist on csync. It looks correctly made to me, no cap on csync though but other than that looks fine. btw how badly is the cap on csync needed and what size 220uf?

Here's a pic of the inside of my cable if anyone is interested, btw it is a genesis 2 cable
http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d2d1/o ... psmizg.jpg


Last edited by Thomas83lin on Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:04 pm 


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As an aside– I think Krikzz could use more competition. The SD2SNES is a far superior product to the N64 everdrive (I have version 3) and the mega everdrive (I have the x7). The menus alone are night and day. I love the in game reset on the SD2SNES, which is missing on the 64 everdrive- and the in game reset on the mega everdrive doesn’t work with a 32x attachment, nor for master system games. Basically, they’re all amazing products– but competition is sometimes what takes things to a different level. Right now Krikzz is like the only game in town- and someone pointed out that this is a side hobby for him— if this is a indeed his side hobby, it might be the most lucrative hobby in existence....


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:04 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
I measured with the console turned on, between ground pins and the HSync pin on the DSub connectors (passing RGBS, not RGBHV). So that's pretty worrisome...

That measurement is invalid. As mentioned above, the spec is a 0.3Vpp signal into a 75 ohm load. If you measure without a load, the result you get depends on the implementation of the output stage and has no useful relation to the value under load.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:44 pm 



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Even if real world risks are rare, it comes off as lazy research. The rhetorical question of why you wouldn't properly compare datasheets for the console and what you're designing to plug into it.


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 Post subject: Re: Everdrives could cause damages...?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:25 pm 


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Unseen wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
I measured with the console turned on, between ground pins and the HSync pin on the DSub connectors (passing RGBS, not RGBHV). So that's pretty worrisome...

That measurement is invalid. As mentioned above, the spec is a 0.3Vpp signal into a 75 ohm load. If you measure without a load, the result you get depends on the implementation of the output stage and has no useful relation to the value under load.


That makes sense, I have no clue how I'd measure that though.


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