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 Post subject: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integrity
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:15 am 


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As you guys probably know or don't know CRTs have a special circuitry featured called "ABL" which stands for Automatic Brightness Limiter, a situation where this circuit's features would be required is due to the fact that many older games made repeated uses of pure full-white screens (especially Japanese RPGs) that would last 1-5 seconds each (depends on the games), however recent games barely make use of that features and as a matter of fact some games even use cream colored loading screens rather than pure white such as older games mostly did (the only SD games that I know that did not use pure whites on full-whte screens are The Legend of Zelda: Twiilight Princess and Okami).

Now my question is, should games who make heavy uses of pure full-white screen be avoided for the sake of avoiding your CRT's brightness integrity from being compromised?


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:27 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 624
Location: Ohio
Lawfer wrote:
however recent games barely make use of that features and as a matter of fact some games even use cream colored loading screens rather than pure white such as older games mostly did (the only SD games that I know that did not use pure whites on full-whte screens are The Legend of Zelda: Twiilight Princess and Okami).

Holy shit

Is this why I notice Twilight Princess HD on the Wii U using gray/off-white loading screens? I thought this was an issue with the Wii U's Limited RGB (16-235) output.


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:13 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
however recent games barely make use of that features and as a matter of fact some games even use cream colored loading screens rather than pure white such as older games mostly did (the only SD games that I know that did not use pure whites on full-whte screens are The Legend of Zelda: Twiilight Princess and Okami).

Holy shit

Is this why I notice Twilight Princess HD on the Wii U using gray/off-white loading screens? I thought this was an issue with the Wii U's Limited RGB (16-235) output.


Exactly it has nothing to do with the Limited Range RGB or not, if you're playing on an HDTV that is set up to take Limited Range RGB you won't notice a difference, the issue comes if you're using say a run-of-the-mil PC monitor (LCD) and it most likely only takes in Full Range RGB, then in that case you will notice something is off when using the Wii U (it will look washed out).


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:27 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 624
Location: Ohio
Lawfer wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
however recent games barely make use of that features and as a matter of fact some games even use cream colored loading screens rather than pure white such as older games mostly did (the only SD games that I know that did not use pure whites on full-whte screens are The Legend of Zelda: Twiilight Princess and Okami).

Holy shit

Is this why I notice Twilight Princess HD on the Wii U using gray/off-white loading screens? I thought this was an issue with the Wii U's Limited RGB (16-235) output.


Exactly it has nothing to do with the Limited Range RGB or not, if you're playing on an HDTV that is set up to take Limited Range RGB you won't notice a difference, the issue comes if you're using say a run-of-the-mil PC monitor (LCD) and it most likely only takes in Full Range RGB, then in that case you will notice something is off when using the Wii U (it will look washed out).

I have an Eizo Foris FS2434‑BK, an LED PC monitor that accepts and outputs both Full Range RGB (0-255) and Limited Range RGB (16-235). Of course I have my monitor outputting Limited RGB for the Wii U. The difference over using Full RGB is noticeable.


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:39 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
I have an Eizo Foris FS2434‑BK, an LED PC monitor that accepts and outputs both Full Range RGB (0-255) and Limited Range RGB (16-235). Of course I have my monitor outputting Limited RGB for the Wii U. The difference over using Full RGB is noticeable.


You shouldn't notice anything off like washed out colors and grayish blacks and creamy whites as you would if you were playing on a PC monitor that only takes Full Range RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:17 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 624
Location: Ohio
Lawfer wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
I have an Eizo Foris FS2434‑BK, an LED PC monitor that accepts and outputs both Full Range RGB (0-255) and Limited Range RGB (16-235). Of course I have my monitor outputting Limited RGB for the Wii U. The difference over using Full RGB is noticeable.


You shouldn't notice anything off like washed out colors and grayish blacks and creamy whites as you would if you were playing on a PC monitor that only takes Full Range RGB.

The colors aren't washed out, but the loading screen for Twilight Princess HD is an off-white. It seems like this is an issue with the game rather than RGB output or calibration settings.


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:39 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
I have an Eizo Foris FS2434‑BK, an LED PC monitor that accepts and outputs both Full Range RGB (0-255) and Limited Range RGB (16-235). Of course I have my monitor outputting Limited RGB for the Wii U. The difference over using Full RGB is noticeable.


You shouldn't notice anything off like washed out colors and grayish blacks and creamy whites as you would if you were playing on a PC monitor that only takes Full Range RGB.

The colors aren't washed out, but the loading screen for Twilight Princess HD is an off-white. It seems like this is an issue with the game


It's not an "issue" it's by design. Okami which was a take on Zelda used the same design for loading screens (off-white).


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:50 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 362
Lawfer wrote:
As you guys probably know or don't know CRTs have a special circuitry featured called "ABL" which stands for Automatic Brightness Limiter, a situation where this circuit's features would be required is due to the fact that many older games made repeated uses of pure full-white screens (especially Japanese RPGs) that would last 1-5 seconds each (depends on the games), however recent games barely make use of that features and as a matter of fact some games even use cream colored loading screens rather than pure white such as older games mostly did (the only SD games that I know that did not use pure whites on full-whte screens are The Legend of Zelda: Twiilight Princess and Okami).

Now my question is, should games who make heavy uses of pure full-white screen be avoided for the sake of avoiding your CRT's brightness integrity from being compromised?

I don't think it'd be a serious issue if you have the screen at an appropriate brightness to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:33 pm 



Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 92
Too much white can be a bad thing. It has strange effects in esoteric circumstances.
http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39949


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:23 pm 


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...esoteric circumstances? And anyways the link you posted was in reference to the genesis/megadrive, the Genesis and Dreamcast video levels are higher than the standard video levels, so they can create problems on non-Arcade screen monitors because their video levels is too high and becomes worse when in full-white screen. But I am talking about consoles with standard video levels here such as PS1, PS2.

So... I know that keeping a a full white screen for a long period of time will basically damage your TV/Monitor, HOWEVER this is not the case here, with SD games you have games that do the following:

- Final Fantasy VIII, every time a battle is initiated there is a full-white screen for 1 or 2 second.

- Fatal Frame 1, 2 and 3, every time you take a picture your screen will flash full-white for 1 second (to simulate the flash effect of a camera taking a picture)

- Suikoden 5, every time a battle is initiated the screen will turn full-white for about 5 seconds

It is not an issue if a game has a full-white screen for a second or 2 once or twice in the whole game, the issue with these games (FF VIII, Fatal Frame trilogy and such) is the repetitive nature of it and how many time throughout the game will you have to go through a full-white screen (Fatal Frame relies on your character taking picture of ghosts to defeat said ghosts).

What is already known:

Will keeping a TV/Monitor on a pure full-white screen for a long time deteriorate the brightness of said TV/Monitor: YES

So what I am trying to figure out is this:

Will playing video games who display pure full-white screens for 1-5 seconds multiple times throughout the game deteriorate the brightness of your TV/Monitor: ?


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:27 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
Will playing video games who display pure full-white screens for 1-5 seconds multiple times throughout the game deteriorate the brightness of your TV/Monitor: ?


It won't.


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:38 pm 


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Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 144
Location: Italy
My feeling on this (as a layman on the matter) is that if the ABL circuitry is functioning well then the problem is non-existent - otherwise what's the point of having it in the first place? But even if it's not, or if it's not even there to begin with on your model, I still wouldn't worry about it - or better, I wouldn't worry to such an extent as to utterly ban some of my games forever.

What I do instead is (like Lord of Pirates suggested) running my CRTs at sensible brightness and contrast levels (actually, contrast is the setting you want to adjust for peak brightness, at least in most displays - see the relevant paragraph on this excellent article).


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:25 pm 


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You would have to blast a full white screen for hundreds of hours to make the screen visibly dimmer.


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:23 am 



Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 92
Lawfer wrote:
...esoteric circumstances? And anyways the link you posted was in reference to the genesis/megadrive, the Genesis and Dreamcast video levels are higher than the standard video levels, so they can create problems on non-Arcade screen monitors because their video levels is too high and becomes worse when in full-white screen. But I am talking about consoles with standard video levels here such as PS1, PS2.


The esoteric part is that it took combining three pieces of hardware to occur. A genesis/megadrive, a specific model component transcoder, and a specific model component selector.


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:33 am 


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nem wrote:
You would have to blast a full white screen for hundreds of hours to make the screen visibly dimmer.


But won't it wear out the phosphorus? For example, say you initiate 500 battles in Final Fantasy VIII, that brings out the operation time when the monitor was at pure full-white screen to 500 seconds, meaning the monitor was at pure full-white screen for a total duration of about 8 minutes in a non-continuous fashion.

Plasmas even the most expensive high end ones have an extremely dim luminosity due to the ABL system, as such you get poor luminosity/whites on Plasmas.

Here is a review for a Viera Plasma from Panasonic:

Quote:
A serious problem of luminosity and consumption

If Panasonic demonstrates all the qualities of plasma technology, some defects persist. In the image, the tints of light tones tend to twinkle a little like on a cathode ray tube screen, and the dark tints are swarming. Nothing very serious though. However, we found a much more serious problem: the brightness of the screen is very low (only 73 cd / m²). The screen is therefore not very pleasant to look at in a bright room (exposed bay window, etc.), especially since its glossy panel is sensitive to reflections.
In fact, this problem of brightness is related to the electrical consumption of the screen, very high. The ZT60 consumes more than 440W to display a solid white on the entire surface of the screen. Worse still, this white flat in full screen looks rather gray. In fact, as with an OLED screen, the more white the screen occupies, the lower the brightness. Thus, a tiny white square on a black background offers a slightly higher luminosity of 100 cd / m², but a white full screen falls to 35 cd / m², a luminosity much too weak. In comparison, a 55-inch LCD TV can offer more than 500 cd / m² on white in full screen, without exceeding 130 W of consumption ...


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:54 am 



Joined: 14 Apr 2017
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If anything I´d be more worried about too many red or blue screens which are the colors that wear the fastest :D


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:29 pm 



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 362
Lawfer wrote:
nem wrote:
You would have to blast a full white screen for hundreds of hours to make the screen visibly dimmer.


But won't it wear out the phosphorus? For example, say you initiate 500 battles in Final Fantasy VIII, that brings out the operation time when the monitor was at pure full-white screen to 500 seconds, meaning the monitor was at pure full-white screen for a total duration of about 8 minutes in a non-continuous fashion.

Plasmas even the most expensive high end ones have an extremely dim luminosity due to the ABL system, as such you get poor luminosity/whites on Plasmas.

Here is a review for a Viera Plasma from Panasonic:

Quote:
A serious problem of luminosity and consumption

If Panasonic demonstrates all the qualities of plasma technology, some defects persist. In the image, the tints of light tones tend to twinkle a little like on a cathode ray tube screen, and the dark tints are swarming. Nothing very serious though. However, we found a much more serious problem: the brightness of the screen is very low (only 73 cd / m²). The screen is therefore not very pleasant to look at in a bright room (exposed bay window, etc.), especially since its glossy panel is sensitive to reflections.
In fact, this problem of brightness is related to the electrical consumption of the screen, very high. The ZT60 consumes more than 440W to display a solid white on the entire surface of the screen. Worse still, this white flat in full screen looks rather gray. In fact, as with an OLED screen, the more white the screen occupies, the lower the brightness. Thus, a tiny white square on a black background offers a slightly higher luminosity of 100 cd / m², but a white full screen falls to 35 cd / m², a luminosity much too weak. In comparison, a 55-inch LCD TV can offer more than 500 cd / m² on white in full screen, without exceeding 130 W of consumption ...

Fire up cheats, max level, restart, turn on no random battles code. Problem solved :lol:.


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 Post subject: Re: Full-White Screen in SD Games and CRTs Brightness Integr
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 3:33 pm 


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Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 144
Location: Italy
Lord of Pirates wrote:
Fire up cheats, max level, restart, turn on no random battles code. Problem solved :lol:.

You don't even need cheats, Diablos has an "Encounter None" ability :) You can get him as a G.F. very early in the game, and the ability works in nearly all dungeons and the world map.

I sunk way too much time into this game as a teenager -_-


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