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 Post subject: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:00 am 



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 6755
Location: Bedford, UK
I was in John Lewis in Peterborough yesterday and got a Panasonic representatives attention for the best part of 30 minutes.

The TV he said he would buy if he were me would be this -

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx58dx90 ... 174282.htm

Its dropped in price to make way for OLED for the next 3 weeks. John Lewis are doing this TV for £1499 delivered. Thats almost half of the new launch stuff at the same size range.



Positives/Don't cares

Its not wafer thin, but I have a TV bench, it gives decent sound out of the TV speakers
Its 58", which is the same price as a 55", but a lot cheaper than any 65" TV's and about as big as my TV bench can accomodate.
The reviews are glowing in almost every department. 3D and HDR black consistency only nibbles they mention anywhere in any review
Blu rays were testing on it, so I could see what all my own content looks like on it, was impressed mostly.

Negatives

Apart from not being wafer thin and being a 2016 model I can't see a problem.
Lag might play a part, not sure. 37ms.


Apparently the TV prices have shot up due to Brexit since last year. All panels are bought in US$. Since this is a good price whilst it lasts and one of the few TV's that went down in price to make way for 2017's OLED's, is it a good buy?

Thanks for your consideration.
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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:06 am 


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Quote:
Apart from not being wafer thin and being a 2016 model I can't see a problem.
Lag might play a part, not sure. 37ms.

certainly a perfectly fine TV, BUT at this price you should be able to get a 2016 OLED in 55" as well, shouldn't you ?


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:12 am 


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neorichieb1971 wrote:
Lag might play a part, not sure. 37ms.


Hum that's high, from what Fudoh told me they managed to bring the lag down to LCD levels now, so you could probably aim for an OLED TV that's more gaming friendly?


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:13 am 



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 6755
Location: Bedford, UK
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Apart from not being wafer thin and being a 2016 model I can't see a problem.
Lag might play a part, not sure. 37ms.

certainly a perfectly fine TV, BUT at this price you should be able to get a 2016 OLED in 55" as well, shouldn't you ?


I think so yes. Found this -

http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/oled-tvs/t ... teria.html

3D is a consideration since I have 100+ titles on blu ray that just happen to have a 3D disc packed in. I have never watched 3D in the home since my current TV is a 2008 Sony W4500 model which predates 3D.

I'm looking for a TV which ticks the most boxes. I will buy an OSSC at some point. But I can use that on my Dell monitors which are the same as yours Fudoh. I think the LG OLED's from 2016 have high compatibility with the OSSC.


When I see OLED's they only show 4k Content and HDR. Not blu ray. I've never seen 1080 on them.
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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:46 pm 


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When I see OLED's they only show 4k Content and HDR. Not blu ray. I've never seen 1080 on them.

spectacular. Wether you gain something from 4K still depends on your sitting distance from the screen (I couldn't care less about 4K) and HDR for consumers isn't really there yet, since the screens don't yet have the required brightness for real HDR.


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 5:01 pm 



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As for those 3D Blu-Ray discs, they're awesome (especially the 3D BR of Avatar). I've got the 3D BRs of Star Wars: The Force Awakens and SW Rogue One - A Star Wars Story -- they are quite something to view in 3D (you can adjust the depth perception to your liking/preference to make the 3D effects really jump out if you wish to do so).

I do know that with the current 3D flat screen TVs out there in the market these days, it'll be the LCD active shutter type 3D glasses (that requires a tiny lithium coin-type battery to power it up) or the passive 3D glasses type (which doesn't need a battery whatsoever and is the same type that you'd use on the silver screen like with the theatrical Real D 3D & Imax 3D movie releases, etc.) Some of the "AAA" gaming titles like the PS3 game of Gran Turismo 5 & Child of Eden do have built-in support for 3D gaming as a bonus. I realize that 4K UHD TVs have been out in the market since 2013 (at least in Japan, of course with prices ranging from $4,000 to $26,000 -- you do get what you pay for though as early high-tech adopters will tell you).

Sure the first 3D HDTVs were rolled out back in 2010 from the likes of Sony and other competitors back in the day -- the only requirement was that you had to get the high speed HDMI cables that were rated at spec v1.4 to properly be able to view it. If you used the older HDMI spec v1.3 cables with a 3D Blu-Ray player + 3D HDTV setup, it was no cigar/no dice/no 3D viewing for you.

I found out that the Ouya micro-gaming console does output in 3D if you use an optional HDMI v1.4 cable setup -- everything will be displayed in 3D including all apps and homebrew gaming titles as well. Very nice little bonus -- this was never mentioned in the instruction manual whatsoever -- it was through trial & error that I found this little cool option by accident.

Sony has two new 2017 released 4K UHD OLED TVs that just recently went on sale in the USA towards the end of April of 2017: http://www.sony.com/electronics/televisions/a1e-series with the 55" & 65" class sized OLED TVs (the 55" OLED model is priced at a whopping $3999 USD & $5,499 USD for the 65" OLED model). It's just that I don't know what the lag time is for either model though if you decide to play the Playstation 4 Pro or XBox One S consoles (both gaming consoles do have 4K support from the get-go, indeed) on either of them. The Sony 55" OLED model is super wafer thin and has a cool internal speaker layout that makes sound appear to be emanating from the center of the screen -- quite impressive nonetheless how Sony R&D engineers managed to pull it off.

I've viewed some 4K Youtube videos with a Sony 55" 4K UHD TV with HDR and it's quite jaw-dropping (unfortunately, it doesn't have 3D support from the get-go which sucks big time). Of course, a dedicated 4K UHD Blu-Ray player will be necessary with a brand new spanking 4K UHD TV setup (plus a new A/V reciever that supports 4K from the get-go -- means having to upgrade the old & obsolete A/V gear to accomodate such a new 4K UHD TV setup).

Am not sure if American TV broadcasting station NBC will be broadcasting the upcoming February 2018 Winter Olympics in 4K UHD format or just the ol' 1080p format to save on TV transmission bandwidth. Will certainly be interesting to see if they do so or not. When NBC did broadcast the Summer 2016 Olympics back in July of 2016, I noticed that it was broadcast in 1080i format (to save on TV transmission bandwidth).

It's a given that AT&T/DirecTV does have a dedicated 4K UHD satellite setup box for some 4K TV promgramming but it's limited for now. Both Amazon Prime and Netflix do offer some 4K UHD listing as well (again, the selection is limited but quite razor sharp nevertheless). Netflix charges a few dollars/quid/yen more if you want 4K streaming -- something to consider if you do splurge on a new 4K UHD TV. There's a roster of 4K Youtube videos for your perusal/consideration.

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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 7:49 pm 


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I'd get the LG B6 OLED, seems the lag issues were largely solved by firmware updates. Or I'd wait a year and get the B7/C7. The 2017 models do have slightly better brightness and even lower input lag (21ms).
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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 8:38 pm 



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
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Location: Bedford, UK
Unfortunately cost is an issue. I saw the 2017 Sony OLED line up which goes for an eye popping £3500 for the 55". The speaker is part of the stand. Its at a 45 degree angle keeping the TV upright. How that ends up sounding forward facing is beyond me because the mesh was rear facing. It probably bounces off the rear wall and back into the field of hearing for the viewer.

I think the LG OLED is probably best for my price range. I can put some extra cash towards a camera if I spend £1500-1600 on a TV.
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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 8:42 pm 


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Quote:
The speaker is part of the stand. Its at a 45 degree angle keeping the TV upright. How that ends up sounding forward facing is beyond me because the mesh was rear facing. It probably bounces off the rear wall and back into the field of hearing for the viewer.

on the Sony A1 the glas front is the actual speaker. It vibrates and generates the sound. The stand just includes a bass speaker.


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 8:58 pm 



Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 6755
Location: Bedford, UK
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
The speaker is part of the stand. Its at a 45 degree angle keeping the TV upright. How that ends up sounding forward facing is beyond me because the mesh was rear facing. It probably bounces off the rear wall and back into the field of hearing for the viewer.

on the Sony A1 the glas front is the actual speaker. It vibrates and generates the sound. The stand just includes a bass speaker.



Groovy.
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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:42 am 


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I gave up on the Panasonic Brand after 2006. It's been over 10 years since I owned the panel that gave me a sub 135ms Leo bodnar score.

No other panel other than my brother's Sharp Aquos has ever given me a score as bad as that. That alone makes me wait for a good review. But for now the brand is overpriced and underperformed IMO.
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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:49 am 



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Harrumph wrote:
Or I'd wait a year and get the B7/C7. The 2017 models do have slightly better brightness and even lower input lag (21ms).

Plus they're able to display 1080p/120Hz. Excellent for PC gamers.


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:04 am 


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Hoagtech wrote:
No other panel other than my brother's Sharp Aquos has ever given me a score as bad as that. That alone makes me wait for a good review. But for now the brand is overpriced and underperformed IMO.


The Sharp Aquos are supposed to be great though? Plus they're Made in Japan.


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:09 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
Hoagtech wrote:
No other panel other than my brother's Sharp Aquos has ever given me a score as bad as that. That alone makes me wait for a good review. But for now the brand is overpriced and underperformed IMO.


The Sharp Aquos are supposed to be great though? Plus they're Made in Japan.


Picture quality and input lag are 2 different ballgames. I got a bad input lag score on both sets so I switched to Sony and have never been happier. (KDL-65W-950B) 65" inches of 3D bliss at 17ms of lag

Also just picked up the m70 Vizio 70". The input lag is the best of a 70" Led (16 ms) but the contrast ratio, viewing angle, and ghosting could leave something to be desired.

They may have gotten better (Sharp and Panasonic) but once you invest your money and lose your mind wondering why games aren't as fun as when you grew just to realize it's the industry fucking you, you might say I have a chip on my shoulder.
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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:57 pm 


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I'm a huge fan of Sony. They've always made excellent tvs even if there aren't currently oled options.


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:42 pm 



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Quote:
Now enter HDR displays. The UHD Alliance Ultra HD Premium Cert requirements are over 1000 nits for LCDs and over 540 nits for OLEDs. LED local dimming LCDs have black levels limited by screen reflection when LEDs off, just like OLEDs. The difference being that LED local dimming zones bleed out rectangular artifacts. But for sake of argument we can ignore black level for differences in peak contrast ratio, and focus on peak white level. In that case the average peak HDR display difference is only really around 1 stop (HDR LCDs over one stop above the cert limit don't exist for consumers). Point being HDR displays have smaller contrast variation than traditional non-HDR consumer displays, and HDR LCDs on average add around 1-stop extra brightness compared to existing bright non-HDR displays.

Now lets return to observable contrast, and properly account for the effects of room ambient level on display black level. Grabbing numbers from my prior mentioned GDC Presentation where I physically measured ambient level around my house in all the different viewing conditions from day to night: there is a 15-stop variation in ambient level (which results in a 15-stop variation in observed black level on the display). This means quite literally if you play a BluRay or DVD movie on the range of classic LDR displays, depending on night/day room conditions and room lighting, the observed contrast can roughly range between 4-stops for poor reflectance screens in bright conditions, to 15-stops assuming a good plasma display in a ultra dark room. Also it is easy to take a great LDR plasma display in a dark room and have many stops more contrast than the brightest consumer HDR displays in an afternoon lit room.

https://timothylottes.github.io/20161012.html


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:33 am 


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Owner of LG 65C7 and it's the best screen I've played on. I can sit here tell you how wonderful it looks in 4k hdr @60hz from Mass Effect Andromeda or how the tv can handle the line 5x mode from the OSSC with all my older consoles. 21ms, no motion blur, no bfi needed and supports 1080p@120hz are all just icing on the cake. Instead I'll just show a quick video of the analogue nt mini
https://youtu.be/cCpV7368nPE


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:59 pm 


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It is pretty unfortunate that larger displays can't really match the input lag of smaller computer monitors, at least from displaylag website.


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 Post subject: Re: Which flat screen TV?
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:39 pm 


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They can, it's just that manufacturers don't pay attention or don't make the effort.

Also typically websites that review TVs don't measure lag like monitors reviewers do;

The former take measurements by the middle of the screen (or average measurements of the entire area like displaylag, which is wrong imho) where the picture is already halfway drawn, probably because they think the middle of the screen is where we look at most of the time (and they're not totally wrong), the latter measure it at the top of the screen where the picture's barely begun to appear, so that we can have a more accurate figure of what's the display's inner system delay before the picture starts appearing.

So for instance take the Vizio P series from last year, those go from 50" to 75" and were measured at 16ms in some modes by Rtings.
If it had been tested like a monitor that would have been 8ms (:minus 1/2 a frame), pretty much the in ballpark of the majority of monitors today that are easily under 1 frame.
The LG 7 series OLEDs would be rated at 13ms, which is about twice the average monitor yet still under one frame!
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