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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:09 pm 



Joined: 30 May 2016
Posts: 37
Location: USA - West Coast
Woozle wrote:
If there were spare FPGA IO pins, it would be great to have a bunch broken out to an FFC connector. That would make add-on boards somewhat easier to develop.


The fpga is pretty full. No IO are left. The only unused pins are 3 input only.
I have been considering adding a small CLPD as an IO expander. I was thinking about it for extra buttons. I had not considered an addon board port. That could be interesting...


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:19 pm 



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becker wrote:
Woozle wrote:
If there were spare FPGA IO pins, it would be great to have a bunch broken out to an FFC connector. That would make add-on boards somewhat easier to develop.


The fpga is pretty full. No IO are left. The only unused pins are 3 input only.
I have been considering adding a small CLPD as an IO expander. I was thinking about it for extra buttons. I had not considered an addon board port. That could be interesting...

Yeah, that's a really cool idea. Then people can come up with whatever addon solution they need and make their own. I'm not sure how feasible all of that is, but I love the idea!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:34 am 



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Looking at your a/v pinout, I'm thinking you could make RGB work over component if you made one of them act as a sync input lead. Also may be able to add some method of dithering like I keep requesting for on the other kit since composite is required.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:12 pm 



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Any chance for a more powerful FPGA that can do 9x scaling instead of the max of...6x I believe now? Would be awesome to have line doubling that goes perfectly into 4k for all these new 4k screens. Specially now that some of the OLEDs have as low as 23ms lag with amazing quality blacks.

Just wishful thinking. Not even sure if it's a possibility or not but this is a part of my 'holy grail' fantasy in my head.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:32 pm 


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PearlJammzz wrote:
Any chance for a more powerful FPGA that can do 9x scaling instead of the max of...6x I believe now? Would be awesome to have line doubling that goes perfectly into 4k for all these new 4k screens. Specially now that some of the OLEDs have as low as 23ms lag with amazing quality blacks.

Just wishful thinking. Not even sure if it's a possibility or not but this is a part of my 'holy grail' fantasy in my head.


I don't believe there are any FPGAs available that can hit the pixel clocks required for 4K. Maybe on some thousand dollar dev boards or something, but they certainly aren't commercially viable.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:43 am 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
I don't believe there are any FPGAs available that can hit the pixel clocks required for 4K. Maybe on some thousand dollar dev boards or something, but they certainly aren't commercially viable.


I think the Xilinx ZynQ would be able to, but then the device will cost around 300-350 USD ...
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:34 am 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
I don't believe there are any FPGAs available that can hit the pixel clocks required for 4K. Maybe on some thousand dollar dev boards or something, but they certainly aren't commercially viable.

Lumagen scalers are FPGA-based, but they are indeed a bit expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:56 pm 


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rtw wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:
I don't believe there are any FPGAs available that can hit the pixel clocks required for 4K. Maybe on some thousand dollar dev boards or something, but they certainly aren't commercially viable.


I think the Xilinx ZynQ would be able to, but then the device will cost around 300-350 USD ...


I definitely wouldn't mind a device that's $350 and can do 4K, I already paid $300 for a framemeister that only does 1080P


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:39 pm 


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Pasky wrote:
I definitely wouldn't mind a device that's $350 and can do 4K, I already paid $300 for a framemeister that only does 1080P


Sorry I was being unclear/vague, the price of one ZynQ chip 030 is 300 USD, that is just the chip!
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:42 pm 


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rtw wrote:
Pasky wrote:
I definitely wouldn't mind a device that's $350 and can do 4K, I already paid $300 for a framemeister that only does 1080P


Sorry I was being unclear/vague, the price of one ZynQ chip 030 is 300 USD, that is just the chip!


I'd still be down at a device in the $450 range for 4K, haha.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:11 pm 


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$4K !! :evil:
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:23 pm 



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As long as it can multiply until 1080p, I'm happy for the moment. 4K is 2×1080p, so it's not a big deal.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:40 pm 


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Yeah, adding $200-250 extra to the price of the OSSC just so that it can output 4K instead of 1080p is really not worth it in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:09 pm 



Joined: 05 Apr 2017
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I was wondering if there was a possibility of making a "lite" low cost version of the OSSC wolf? I'm only interested in component to HDMI, 720p and your basic features. I'm only planning to use it with my Snes, Genesis 2, PS1 and Sega Saturn. I have an AVS to play NES games, so I no longer use a real console, and my Nintendo64 will be soon hdmi-modded.

The idea is to use the OSSC+HD Retrovision's cables, thus RGB isn't needed, but I was looking into spending less into an affordable version of the OSSC.

Also, no PSU but instead power the device via USB in order to power it through my TV. This would make it very convenient as well and I wouldn't have to worry about faulty power supplies.

Let me know what you think.


Last edited by leonquest on Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:33 pm 


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Get DIY solution and don't purchase any of the parts that aren't in the signal path between the component inputs and HDMI output :P


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:56 pm 



Joined: 05 Apr 2017
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Guspaz wrote:
Get DIY solution and don't purchase any of the parts that aren't in the signal path between the component inputs and HDMI output :P



Yeah, if I only I had expert level soldering skills and electronics knowledge.... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:04 pm 


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rtw wrote:
Pasky wrote:
I definitely wouldn't mind a device that's $350 and can do 4K, I already paid $300 for a framemeister that only does 1080P


Sorry I was being unclear/vague, the price of one ZynQ chip 030 is 300 USD, that is just the chip!


Hey, cheaper than I thought it would be!


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:55 pm 



Joined: 30 May 2016
Posts: 37
Location: USA - West Coast
leonquest wrote:
I was wondering if there was a possibility of making a "lite" low cost version of the OSSC wolf? I'm only interested in component to HDMI, 720p and your basic features. I'm only planning to use it with my Snes, Genesis 2, PS1 and Sega Saturn. I have an AVS to play NES games, so I no longer use a real console, and my Nintendo64 will be soon hdmi-modded.

The idea is to use the OSSC+HD Retrovision's cables, thus RGB isn't needed, but I was looking into spending less into an affordable version of the OSSC.

Also, no PSU but instead power the device via USB in order to power it through my TV. This would make it very convenient as well and I wouldn't have to worry about faulty power supplies.

Let me know what you think.


I did consider using usb for power. The OSSC draws somewhere between 700 and 800mA. The idea was the usb cable is universal and people plug into a regional phone charger to the wall outlet. My worry is that usb cables or hosts like a TV might only be rated for 500mA. Maybe someone who knows more can say if this is a valid fear.
I also considered a lite version that had scart removed. It turns out there are few places to save money. The main circuit is the big money. A lite verson just saves the price of a connector and maybe a buffer IC. It only saves maybe $4. I felt the small price gap made having two versions more trouble than its worth. It would be different firmware and build options to track. All signal come together to go through the main vido circuit. It's the same components for three inputs or one.
If someone has good insight into using usb for power please let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:24 pm 



Joined: 05 Apr 2017
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becker wrote:
leonquest wrote:
I was wondering if there was a possibility of making a "lite" low cost version of the OSSC wolf? I'm only interested in component to HDMI, 720p and your basic features. I'm only planning to use it with my Snes, Genesis 2, PS1 and Sega Saturn. I have an AVS to play NES games, so I no longer use a real console, and my Nintendo64 will be soon hdmi-modded.

The idea is to use the OSSC+HD Retrovision's cables, thus RGB isn't needed, but I was looking into spending less into an affordable version of the OSSC.

Also, no PSU but instead power the device via USB in order to power it through my TV. This would make it very convenient as well and I wouldn't have to worry about faulty power supplies.

Let me know what you think.


I did consider using usb for power. The OSSC draws somewhere between 700 and 800mA. The idea was the usb cable is universal and people plug into a regional phone charger to the wall outlet. My worry is that usb cables or hosts like a TV might only be rated for 500mA. Maybe someone who knows more can say if this is a valid fear.
I also considered a lite version that had scart removed. It turns out there are few places to save money. The main circuit is the big money. A lite verson just saves the price of a connector and maybe a buffer IC. It only saves maybe $4. I felt the small price gap made having two versions more trouble than its worth. It would be different firmware and build options to track. All signal come together to go through the main vido circuit. It's the same components for three inputs or one.
If someone has good insight into using usb for power please let me know.


Alright then, no worries. At least I asked.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:49 pm 


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becker wrote:
I did consider using usb for power. The OSSC draws somewhere between 700 and 800mA. The idea was the usb cable is universal and people plug into a regional phone charger to the wall outlet. My worry is that usb cables or hosts like a TV might only be rated for 500mA. Maybe someone who knows more can say if this is a valid fear.


Spec wise, USB 2.0 is only required to provide 500mA, but I believe by standard the port is rated to handle up to 5A load. In any event, the vast majority of phones charge over a regular USB 2.0 cable at 1A to 2A. You're safe to draw 700 to 800 mA (assuming 5V) if the supply supports it, and if they plug it into something that doesn't support it (like maybe their TV won't do more than 500mA), that shouldn't be the end of the world, they'll just need to use a different charger.

As for the actual mechanism for drawing more than 500mA, I'm not sure: there are a large number of battery charging an power delivery specs for USB, some of which involve data for negotiation, some of which simply involve resistors for identifying capability, and some devices probably just go ahead and try to draw the power and see what happens.

It's worth pointing out that the Raspberry Pi is USB powered, with a recommendation to use a 2A power supply, so I really don't see why the OSSC drawing less than an amp over USB would be a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:21 am 



Joined: 05 Apr 2017
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Guspaz wrote:
becker wrote:
I did consider using usb for power. The OSSC draws somewhere between 700 and 800mA. The idea was the usb cable is universal and people plug into a regional phone charger to the wall outlet. My worry is that usb cables or hosts like a TV might only be rated for 500mA. Maybe someone who knows more can say if this is a valid fear.


Spec wise, USB 2.0 is only required to provide 500mA, but I believe by standard the port is rated to handle up to 5A load. In any event, the vast majority of phones charge over a regular USB 2.0 cable at 1A to 2A. You're safe to draw 700 to 800 mA (assuming 5V) if the supply supports it, and if they plug it into something that doesn't support it (like maybe their TV won't do more than 500mA), that shouldn't be the end of the world, they'll just need to use a different charger.

As for the actual mechanism for drawing more than 500mA, I'm not sure: there are a large number of battery charging an power delivery specs for USB, some of which involve data for negotiation, some of which simply involve resistors for identifying capability, and some devices probably just go ahead and try to draw the power and see what happens.

It's worth pointing out that the Raspberry Pi is USB powered, with a recommendation to use a 2A power supply, so I really don't see why the OSSC drawing less than an amp over USB would be a problem.


Just ask Brian Parker from RetroUSB how he did it, the AVS works by simply connecting it to a USB port.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:06 pm 



Joined: 25 Jun 2016
Posts: 60
I had a thought for how you could make this different than the regular ossc. What if you accepted hdmi input in?

Many consoles can be modded for hdmi or converted to it but don't include upscalers. For example:
Gamecube via Gc video mod,
Dreamcast via Akura converter box and the Dreamcast hdmi mod is in the works
Wii via Wii2hdmi and a version of gc video for the wii is in the works
Ps2 via ps2 to hdmi
snes has an hdmi mod in the works
Ps3 has native hdmi and not all games are 1080p
xbox 360 has native hdmi and not all games are 1080p
Wii u has native hdmi and isn't 1080p
Switch has some kind of 900p native with 1080p internal upscaling witchcraft, maybe that could be disabled for a 0 lag upscaling solution?

And if it can linedouble to 4k then it would also work on:
Nes via hi-def nes
Analogue Nt Mini
N64 hdmi
Almost every ps4 game
xbox 1
Switch

Not to mention if it also accepts scart and component video it takes out the TurboDuo, Sega Mega CDX, Saturn, PS1, Cdi, PSP, and Xbox as well. (As well as all the systems covered by the Analogue Nt Mini)

It would be a legitimate framemeister killer.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:29 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 91
Wolf_ wrote:
I had a thought for how you could make this different than the regular ossc. What if you accepted hdmi input in?

Many consoles can be modded for hdmi or converted to it but don't include upscalers. For example:
Gamecube via Gc video mod,
Dreamcast via Akura converter box and the Dreamcast hdmi mod is in the works
Wii via Wii2hdmi and a version of gc video for the wii is in the works
Ps2 via ps2 to hdmi
snes has an hdmi mod in the works
Ps3 has native hdmi and not all games are 1080p
xbox 360 has native hdmi and not all games are 1080p
Wii u has native hdmi and isn't 1080p
Switch has some kind of 900p native with 1080p internal upscaling witchcraft, maybe that could be disabled for a 0 lag upscaling solution?

And if it can linedouble to 4k then it would also work on:
Nes via hi-def nes
Analogue Nt Mini
N64 hdmi
Almost every ps4 game
xbox 1
Switch

Not to mention if it also accepts scart and component video it takes out the TurboDuo, Sega Mega CDX, Saturn, PS1, Cdi, PSP, and Xbox as well. (As well as all the systems covered by the Analogue Nt Mini)

It would be a legitimate framemeister killer.


This is quite interesting, actually. One thing I really don't like about GCVideo is the HDMI output. I want it to be connected to the OSSC, so HDMI output is not as sexy as SCART.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:57 pm 


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There is an analog version of GCVideo also.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:18 pm 


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Lumagen is outputting 4k@30Hz with 4:4:4 chroma. That's 30 frames per second.

I think everybody is.

4k processing isn't really here yet.
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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:25 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
Lumagen is outputting 4k@30Hz with 4:4:4 chroma. That's 30 frames per second.

I think everybody is.

4k processing isn't really here yet.


Well even if it only works up to 1080p that would still be a lot of systems it supports (as I listed) so that's still a pretty damn big deal. From there a high end 1080p to 4k upscaler to avoid the processing delay of the display would be a minor inconvenience. Still a strong framemeister competitor and possibly killer.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:14 pm 


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A 1080p to 4K scan line doubler is simultaneously not possible with affordable FPGAs today, and also way beyond what the Wolf Edition is planned to be, a firmware-compatible alternate take on the OSSC...

It's also an enormous amount of work just to upscale 1080p to 4K, something that will be an incredibly small difference from the lagless upscaling done by a 4K display or console.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:39 pm 



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Guspaz wrote:
A 1080p to 4K scan line doubler is simultaneously not possible with affordable FPGAs today, and also way beyond what the Wolf Edition is planned to be, a firmware-compatible alternate take on the OSSC...

It's also an enormous amount of work just to upscale 1080p to 4K, something that will be an incredibly small difference from the lagless upscaling done by a 4K display or console.


Plans change.

And displays have their own upscalers and they are not lagless. Some add like 5 frames of lag which is why if this only does 1080p to get it to 4k a high end external upscaler with minimal lag would be the way to go. Internal upscalers differ in the same line of displays based on the size of the display sometimes or just randomly get swapped out based on affordability and the production run. It is maddening trying to predict what hardware you will get inside a display and it runs the gambit from amazing to garbage seemingly at random.

Console upscalers are also not lagless. Anything with a framebuffer = at least 1 frame of lag. Now naturally console internal upscaling is usually done very well because it is designed for that system but it still adds lag.

And yea it looks like 4k at 60fps isn't feasible so 1080p with an additional upscaler looks like the best we could expect from this gen assuming the dev goes for it.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:12 pm 


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Wolf_ wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
A 1080p to 4K scan line doubler is simultaneously not possible with affordable FPGAs today, and also way beyond what the Wolf Edition is planned to be, a firmware-compatible alternate take on the OSSC...

It's also an enormous amount of work just to upscale 1080p to 4K, something that will be an incredibly small difference from the lagless upscaling done by a 4K display or console.


Plans change.


Becker is a PCB designer, not a software developer. He made it clear from the offset that he didn't plan to make drastic firmware changes to the OSSC. "Plans change" doesn't work here, unless you want to step up and re-write the firmware to support 4K.

Quote:
And displays have their own upscalers and they are not lagless. Some add like 5 frames of lag which is why if this only does 1080p to get it to 4k a high end external upscaler with minimal lag would be the way to go. Internal upscalers differ in the same line of displays based on the size of the display sometimes or just randomly get swapped out based on affordability and the production run. It is maddening trying to predict what hardware you will get inside a display and it runs the gambit from amazing to garbage seemingly at random.

Console upscalers are also not lagless. Anything with a framebuffer = at least 1 frame of lag. Now naturally console internal upscaling is usually done very well because it is designed for that system but it still adds lag.

And yea it looks like 4k at 60fps isn't feasible so 1080p with an additional upscaler looks like the best we could expect from this gen assuming the dev goes for it.


Modern TVs process native-res content in the same processing path they use for processing lower-res content. So yes, essentially upscaling is lagless, because 1080p and 4K on the same set will have the same amount of lag.


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 Post subject: Re: OSSC Wolf Edition - Audio over HDMI
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:18 pm 



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bobrocks95 wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
A 1080p to 4K scan line doubler is simultaneously not possible with affordable FPGAs today, and also way beyond what the Wolf Edition is planned to be, a firmware-compatible alternate take on the OSSC...

It's also an enormous amount of work just to upscale 1080p to 4K, something that will be an incredibly small difference from the lagless upscaling done by a 4K display or console.


Plans change.


Becker is a PCB designer, not a software developer. He made it clear from the offset that he didn't plan to make drastic firmware changes to the OSSC. "Plans change" doesn't work here, unless you want to step up and re-write the firmware to support 4K.

Quote:
And displays have their own upscalers and they are not lagless. Some add like 5 frames of lag which is why if this only does 1080p to get it to 4k a high end external upscaler with minimal lag would be the way to go. Internal upscalers differ in the same line of displays based on the size of the display sometimes or just randomly get swapped out based on affordability and the production run. It is maddening trying to predict what hardware you will get inside a display and it runs the gambit from amazing to garbage seemingly at random.

Console upscalers are also not lagless. Anything with a framebuffer = at least 1 frame of lag. Now naturally console internal upscaling is usually done very well because it is designed for that system but it still adds lag.

And yea it looks like 4k at 60fps isn't feasible so 1080p with an additional upscaler looks like the best we could expect from this gen assuming the dev goes for it.


Modern TVs process native-res content in the same processing path they use for processing lower-res content. So yes, essentially upscaling is lagless, because 1080p and 4K on the same set will have the same amount of lag.


Plans still change. Nothing ever goes as planned.

And is that true for game mode as well? You would think that direct output that requires no processing would be faster than processing that requires a buffer. It makes no sense to enforce a buffer and lag on content that doesn't need it.


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