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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:46 am 



Joined: 07 May 2011
Posts: 7
zeruel85 wrote:
@takeshi385: do you have 220uF into the SCART, for RGB signals?

It does. I figured out what the issue was and updated my post. Thank you so much for your help. :)


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:50 am 



Joined: 30 Nov 2015
Posts: 71
takeshi385 wrote:
I figured out the issue and it is not what I expected. The backlight in my lcd tv is dying, and to a lesser extent my tv is dying.

:shock: :shock: :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:41 am 


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Not as expected :shock:
Glad to know that you found the issue; but unlucky that it's not the cheapest device in the chain :?
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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:22 pm 



Joined: 07 May 2011
Posts: 7
borti4938 wrote:
Not as expected :shock:
Glad to know that you found the issue; but unlucky that it's not the cheapest device in the chain :?

Thank you so much for your help, and just like voultar I am huge fan of your work.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:30 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 913
Location: Toronto, Canada
Oh yeah. The amount of free stuff Borti has given the community is inspiring.

If you use Borti's work and are making money off of it, why not send him a few bucks so he can buy a beer and relax. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:07 pm 


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He's really incredible. Never met someone so selfless in my life, actually. BTW, he accepts donations even if you don't use his work to make money.

leonk wrote:
Oh yeah. The amount of free stuff Borti has given the community is inspiring.

If you use Borti's work and are making money off of it, why not send him a few bucks so he can buy a beer and relax. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:32 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2016
Posts: 5
leonk wrote:
no replies from anyone? guess I'm the only THS7374 with XRGB mini user with latest firmware. ;)

I have a 1CHIP-01 which recently had Voultar's THS7374 bypass board installed--LPF off--and its voltage regulator upgraded. I also use a Framemeister with Firebrandx's profiles, albeit on a 720P display. I see exactly the same interference as the picture in your post 15 March 2017, 8:10 p.m. But I only see the interference where the SNES isn't generating video, such as the black borders at the top and bottom of the screen and black "inbetween" screens. I prefer leaving the bypass board's LPF off for the sharpest image possible, since there is no interference in gameplay.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:30 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 818
Location: Ohio
Do all SNES Minis have the same video output? I know that there are picture quality differences between revisions of the normal SNES, but I don't know if the SNES Mini had more than one revision?


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:53 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 913
Location: Toronto, Canada
aaronchaim wrote:
leonk wrote:
no replies from anyone? guess I'm the only THS7374 with XRGB mini user with latest firmware. ;)

I have a 1CHIP-01 which recently had Voultar's THS7374 bypass board installed--LPF off--and its voltage regulator upgraded. I also use a Framemeister with Firebrandx's profiles, albeit on a 720P display. I see exactly the same interference as the picture in your post 15 March 2017, 8:10 p.m. But I only see the interference where the SNES isn't generating video, such as the black borders at the top and bottom of the screen and black "inbetween" screens. I prefer leaving the bypass board's LPF off for the sharpest image possible, since there is no interference in gameplay.


You will also see this noise in any solid color areas.

As far as sharpness. You only loose it when you have multiple LPF connected between the video source and display. In your case, having LPF off does NOT sharpen the image. It just adds alias noise.

The way you have your SNES configured is optimal for OSSC or running it into a gscartsw (which has a LPF enabled unless you hack it)

It is my personal opinion that not having a LPF prior to going into an xrgb mini is not the optimal solution.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:54 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 913
Location: Toronto, Canada
GeneraLight wrote:
Do all SNES Minis have the same video output? I know that there are picture quality differences between revisions of the normal SNES, but I don't know if the SNES Mini had more than one revision?


Only 1 version ever made. it had relatively short lifespan.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:21 am 



Joined: 05 Dec 2016
Posts: 5
leonk wrote:
aaronchaim wrote:
leonk wrote:
no replies from anyone? guess I'm the only THS7374 with XRGB mini user with latest firmware. ;)

I have a 1CHIP-01 which recently had Voultar's THS7374 bypass board installed--LPF off--and its voltage regulator upgraded. I also use a Framemeister with Firebrandx's profiles, albeit on a 720P display. I see exactly the same interference as the picture in your post 15 March 2017, 8:10 p.m. But I only see the interference where the SNES isn't generating video, such as the black borders at the top and bottom of the screen and black "inbetween" screens. I prefer leaving the bypass board's LPF off for the sharpest image possible, since there is no interference in gameplay.


You will also see this noise in any solid color areas.

As far as sharpness. You only loose it when you have multiple LPF connected between the video source and display. In your case, having LPF off does NOT sharpen the image. It just adds alias noise.

The way you have your SNES configured is optimal for OSSC or running it into a gscartsw (which has a LPF enabled unless you hack it)

It is my personal opinion that not having a LPF prior to going into an xrgb mini is not the optimal solution.


Actually, in my setup, I see no aliasing in solid color areas during gameplay at all. As I said before, I see it only in areas where video isn't being generated. To clarify, I did not say the LPF will sharpen the image. I said I prefer the sharpest image possible. As shown in retrorgb's captures, a LPF will slightly soften the image, even if barely perceptibly. It comes down to personal preference.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:33 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 913
Location: Toronto, Canada
What Bob was trying to show with those images is that with no LPF, alias noise is visible everywhere. It will show up like jailbars on your picture. With a single LPF, the jailbars go away. With a subsequent LPF some people might notice a softer image.

If you don't see jailbars all over your picture, then you are either not at the latest XRGB firmware (v2+ removed LPF on by default on all modes) or you are either in GAME1 mode or MEISTER mode. (both have LPF on but also enable bob deinterlace - of 240p content!! makes the image too blurry). For 240p content you should only use PICTURE mode but that has no LPF and jailbars / alias on the entire picture.

See Bob's screenshots of the jailbars all over the Zelda game.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:15 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2016
Posts: 5
leonk wrote:
What Bob was trying to show with those images is that with no LPF, alias noise is visible everywhere. It will show up like jailbars on your picture. With a single LPF, the jailbars go away. With a subsequent LPF some people might notice a softer image.

If you don't see jailbars all over your picture, then you are either not at the latest XRGB firmware (v2+ removed LPF on by default on all modes) or you are either in GAME1 mode or MEISTER mode. (both have LPF on but also enable bob deinterlace - of 240p content!! makes the image too blurry). For 240p content you should only use PICTURE mode but that has no LPF and jailbars / alias on the entire picture.

See Bob's screenshots of the jailbars all over the Zelda game.


[img]http://www.retrorgb.com/images/THS7374%20Filter.png[img]

Bob has also illustrated that the image yielded by a THS7374 is softer with the LPF on than when it's off.

I can assure you my Framemeister has the latest firmware and is in Picture mode. I use Firebrandx's SNES720 profile. Bob installed Voultar's THS7374 bypass board and upgraded the voltage regulator in my 1CHIP. He's seen pictures since I got it back. There is no aliasing in the picture, only in areas where no video is being generated. This was the case before the mod, too. Benefits of the mod included removing the vertical line and proper attenuation.

I don't see the point in your insistence that I'm wrong, or appreciate your implication that I don't understand how to set up my Framemeister. Since no one with a similar setup replied, I thought I'd share the results of the mod. I'm reminded why I so seldom post in forums.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:28 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 913
Location: Toronto, Canada
No need to be so defensive.

Most people that have XRGB mini do not visit this forum; nor do the majority of them have a THS7374 with LPF off RGB modded console.
And those that do use a THS7374 and don't see alias noise, don't realize that they actually have a LPF in the chain. When I started installing THS7374 RGB amps into 1CHIP/SNES mini/Turbo Duo, I was surprised no one else found this issue. I thought initially something was wrong with my setup.

Upon further investigation, I discovered that:

- GSCARTSW uses a THS7374 with LPF forced on - need to mod it to turn off
- N64RGB uses THS7374 - default is on for LPF
- XRGB mini old firmware (most people don't update firmware) has LPF on all modes. FBX can not control LPF in his settings.

In addition, a lot of the really geeky guys, don't have the same setup as you and I:

- RetroRGB / Bob plays on OSSC
- Borti - OSSC
- Tim Worthington (NESRGB/N64RGB) has an XRGB but uses V1 firmware
- Voultar / Zach - never replied but I wouldn't be surprised if everything goes through a GSCARTSW for him

Based on my personal experience of installing dozens of these THS7374 amps and testing on 3 different XRGB mini consoles (my own and 2 customers) the results are identical. Alias / jailbar noise is there. You need a LPF unless you feed a PVM/BVM. What the alias noise is well documented (See my posts a page back)

If you feel like playing RGB modded consoles with THS7374 with no LPF between the console output and the XRGB mini - do it.

My conclusion was that for the majority of XRGB mini users, if they want a clean picture, having a LPF inline is highly recommended. And if you don't use a GSCARTSW, the only place you can control the LPF is on the amp. So turning off LPF on THS7374 is not for everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:06 am 



Joined: 05 Dec 2016
Posts: 5
leonk wrote:
No need to be so defensive.

Most people that have XRGB mini do not visit this forum; nor do the majority of them have a THS7374 with LPF off RGB modded console.
And those that do use a THS7374 and don't see alias noise, don't realize that they actually have a LPF in the chain. When I started installing THS7374 RGB amps into 1CHIP/SNES mini/Turbo Duo, I was surprised no one else found this issue. I thought initially something was wrong with my setup.

Upon further investigation, I discovered that:

- GSCARTSW uses a THS7374 with LPF forced on - need to mod it to turn off
- N64RGB uses THS7374 - default is on for LPF
- XRGB mini old firmware (most people don't update firmware) has LPF on all modes. FBX can not control LPF in his settings.

In addition, a lot of the really geeky guys, don't have the same setup as you and I:

- RetroRGB / Bob plays on OSSC
- Borti - OSSC
- Tim Worthington (NESRGB/N64RGB) has an XRGB but uses V1 firmware
- Voultar / Zach - never replied but I wouldn't be surprised if everything goes through a GSCARTSW for him

Based on my personal experience of installing dozens of these THS7374 amps and testing on 3 different XRGB mini consoles (my own and 2 customers) the results are identical. Alias / jailbar noise is there. You need a LPF unless you feed a PVM/BVM. What the alias noise is well documented (See my posts a page back)

If you feel like playing RGB modded consoles with THS7374 with no LPF between the console output and the XRGB mini - do it.

My conclusion was that for the majority of XRGB mini users, if they want a clean picture, having a LPF inline is highly recommended. And if you don't use a GSCARTSW, the only place you can control the LPF is on the amp. So turning off LPF on THS7374 is not for everyone.

I respect your opinion. You asked for feedback from other Framemeister users with THS7374 modded consoles, and I replied. My SNES is connected to the Framemeister directly. While I only see aliasing in the areas where the 1CHIP isn't generating video, perhaps seeing it through a capture card would be different. I do prefer not to filter the image, and that's totally a personal preference. My feelings are best summarized quoting Firebrandx: "...I don't use any sort of filtering or settings that would otherwise 'blur' the image in order to reduce aliasing. If the console sent a staircase of graphics to the display, that's exactly what my settings retain."


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:52 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 913
Location: Toronto, Canada
I totally agree with FBX about not messing with th generated video. But this is different. the console video processor does not generate the aliasing noise. it shouldn't even be visible.

It is high frequency noise that, depending on the console, enters the video path at different spots.

Unlike analog CRTs, digital scalars sample the analog signal at much higher frequency and see this noise and think it's part of the video signal. Hence making it visible when it shouldn't. The LPF is a bandaid solution to the way the scalar functions.

If you have an analog display device (like PVM/BVM) the LPF makes no difference. You will not see sharpness difference. You will not see jailbars/alias.

There's a lot of good information in these forums that needs to be better gathered and shared with others. (Here's looking at you Bob). ;)


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:06 am 



Joined: 05 Dec 2016
Posts: 5
Post deleted.


Last edited by aaronchaim on Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:53 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:43 am 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 913
Location: Toronto, Canada
... random nothing .... move on.


Last edited by leonk on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:26 am 



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 57
So I'm getting the same "jailbars" effect on my CRT on all 3 of my SNESs (2 SHVC-CPU-01s and a SNES Mini), both with native RGB (in the case of the SHVC-CPU-01s) and with THS7314s installed (using borti's old board on the SHVC-CPU-01s and using the standard method on the Mini). The reason I even tried installing the 7314s in the SHVC-CPU-01s was to try getting rid of this issue, but they did nothing to help.

It looks exactly like this (I couldn't get a good picture due to it being a CRT) (credit for the picture goes to RetroRGB from earlier in the thread):
Image

Why is this happening? I'm using a clean transformer+rectifier+Pi filter PSU (homemade) with around 150mv ripple under load, all shielded cabling (homemade), I installed a Pi filter on the output of the 7805 (which completely got rid of the vertical line down the middle, by the way), replaced the 7805 with a 2A 78S05, and recapped. I have no other LPFs in my chain.

I've also noticed that on my Mini, the bars are closer together than on my SHVC-CPU-01s (the picture shown accurately represents the spacing on my Mini).

If it makes a difference, I'm using a Sony KV-32FS120 with one of those generic transcoders which I calibrated, replaced the 7805 with a 78S05 (I was bored), and installed a Pi filter on the output of the 7805 to clean up some SMPS noise I was seeing from the power supply that came with it. The transcoder looks perfect with all of my other consoles, so it's not that.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:55 pm 



Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 913
Location: Toronto, Canada
The jailbars you are seeing here on your CRT are true jailbars. This is not alias noise.

I would venture to guess that there is something in your video path that is introducing that noise. Do you have access to an RGB capable CRT device to verify the noise is / is not from snes?


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:27 pm 



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 57
leonk wrote:
The jailbars you are seeing here on your CRT are true jailbars. This is not alias noise.

I would venture to guess that there is something in your video path that is introducing that noise. Do you have access to an RGB capable CRT device to verify the noise is / is not from snes?


No. None of my other consoles have any noise in the picture though going through the exact same transcoder/power supply.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:44 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 341
syboxez wrote:
So I'm getting the same "jailbars" effect on my CRT on all 3 of my SNESs (2 SHVC-CPU-01s and a SNES Mini).

Some model SNES' have tons of noise in the picture. I just tested a SNS-RGB-01 that had some of the noisiest video output I've ever seen. I'm not sure what the issue is, but it's yet another nail in the coffin for why I use 1CHIP consoles (this pic has the LPF on):
Image
leonk wrote:
There's a lot of good information in these forums that needs to be better gathered and shared with others. (Here's looking at you Bob). ;)

I hit some serious delays, but it's looking like there will be an "announcement" in a few weeks. Until then....shhhhhh :)


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:58 pm 



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 57
retrorgb wrote:
Some model SNES' have tons of noise in the picture. I just tested a SNS-RGB-01 that had some of the noisiest video output I've ever seen. I'm not sure what the issue is, but it's yet another nail in the coffin for why I use 1CHIP consoles (this pic has the LPF on):
Image

Yeah, I even went hardcore on both my Mini and my main SHVC-CPU-01 and put decoupling ceramic caps on all of the ICs to try getting rid of as much of the high frequency noise as I can, but it really only helped on the Mini.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:39 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 818
Location: Ohio
Is that pic of a Mini?

I was thinking about getting a Mini because I heard it had the best RGB output.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:25 am 


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Location: Montréal, Canada
No, retrorgb's picture is from the SNS-RGB-01.


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:36 am 


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I also have an SNS-RGB-02. and SNS-RGB-01 and both of them have absolutely awful video out, even composite looks worse then normal. and both of them are (very yellow) super famicoms I got from japan. :|


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:12 am 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
On the subject of vertical noise in Framemeister output of modded SNES consoles, I am getting visible jail bars on my SNES mini with the Borti version of the 7374 kit with LPF turned off. Meanwhile, my unmodded 1CHIP-03 SNES does not have the noise. Here's a zoom-in comparison of the two:

SNES 1CHIP-03 (no kit):

Spoiler: show
Image


SNES mini (Borti 7374 kit with LPF disabled):

Spoiler: show
Image



.
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Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:56 pm 



Joined: 24 Jul 2016
Posts: 57
FBX wrote:
On the subject of vertical noise in Framemeister output of modded SNES consoles, I am getting visible jail bars on my SNES mini with the Borti version of the 7374 kit with LPF turned off. Meanwhile, my unmodded 1CHIP-03 SNES does not have the noise. Here's a zoom-in comparison of the two:

SNES 1CHIP-03 (no kit):

Spoiler: show
Image


SNES mini (Borti 7374 kit with LPF disabled):

Spoiler: show
Image



.

Have you experienced the same issue with any 2CHIPs?


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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:27 pm 


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FBX wrote:
On the subject of vertical noise in Framemeister output of modded SNES consoles, I am getting visible jail bars on my SNES mini with the Borti version of the 7374 kit with LPF turned off. Meanwhile, my unmodded 1CHIP-03 SNES does not have the noise.


What is with LPF enabled?
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 Post subject: Re: THS7374 vs THS7314 + 1 chip brightness fixing
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:37 pm 


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Location: DFW area, Texas
borti4938 wrote:
FBX wrote:
On the subject of vertical noise in Framemeister output of modded SNES consoles, I am getting visible jail bars on my SNES mini with the Borti version of the 7374 kit with LPF turned off. Meanwhile, my unmodded 1CHIP-03 SNES does not have the noise.


What is with LPF enabled?



I recall with LPF enabled (the legs were soldered together since then) the picture was noticeably more 'blurry'. In view of this, I may leave my 1CHIP-03's RGB output umodded. It really looks fine as is.
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Framemeister profiles: http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

NES NTSC Palettes: http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

SNES Serial DB: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HYLy_TTDop_FzuX6qnxuQI43upg4raXfno582taO744/pubhtml


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