Help reviving a PVM-2530 killed during shipping?

[cr4zymanz0r]

So, the short version is someone shipped my PVM with pictures of the cosmetic condition beforehand and it working fine. Fedex packed and shipped and now I have a damaged and non-working PVM.

There's some cracking and broke spots of the outer plastic shell that makes me question if Fedex dropped it during packing because the box didn't look abused enough to cause the damage during shipping.

Anyway, I'll explain how it behaves and see if any of your have some knowledge on how to possibly fix it:
1.) When you plug it in, nothing happens. No standby light or other lights.
2.) When you press the power button you hear the "KUNG" noise that CRT's typically make when being powered on, along with a faint high pitched hum that many CRTs also have. However, there are still no lights on anywhere, and no light coming from the CRT screen. In a dark room I can't see any glow from the screen at all. If it weren't for the sounds, you'd think it had no power at all.
3.) The degauss button on the back makes the typical degauss noise, but none of the other knobs on the back seemed to affect anything.
4.) I tried selecting inputs on the front right side panel but nothing happens at all.
5.) I took the back of the case off and don't see anything obviously wrong such as loose wires, broken PCBs, bulging capacitors, or anything else (though I'm not very knowledgeable about a wide variety of electronic components).

I am very technically minded, but I have almost no experience working on a PVM or other CRTs. Does anybody know of a good starting point for troubleshooting or what the issue might be?
(also, I know the general area to not touch so that I don't kill myself, but I don't know how to how discharge it if needed).

[Arasoi]

.

[cr4zymanz0r]

Sorry, I was busy all weekend.

I've uploaded some pictures of the internals: http://imgur.com/a/fTucX

[patastinky]

Sorry, I was busy all weekend.

I've uploaded some pictures of the internals: http://imgur.com/a/fTucX

Hey, i'm probably going to be of NO help as i am in a bit of a pickle myself with my PVM-2530. If you end up parting her out please let me know as i need a HVR (the red box with red/white cables coming out of it. White goes to cup, red goes to flashback) 1-230-712-22 mine is toast and that part is no longer available.


Here's a video on how to discharge the CRT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jbnFuVWTdk

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm not a repairman by any stretch of the imagination, but there's a couple ideas I have:

- It sounds to me like there might be some kind of automatic failure protection kicking in here. Or something could have become unplugged, which is sometimes essentially the same fault. I'd look carefully at all legs of chips to make sure there's no damage, and I'd also try reseating any wires that can be unplugged - for example I would try tugging on the wires leading to the flyback and high voltage regulator (red box) as well as pushing in on the part of that flyback wire at the back of the CRT (the anode cap, I wouldn't unplug this unless absolutely necessary). Might be a good time to clean up some of the faint dirt here too - the regular plastic bits and wires are safe to clean when unplugged.

- In the top right corner of the very first picture, labeled "left side," is that some white silkscreen under the screw? Or is it a crack? I can't really tell from here. If there is a break, perhaps a ground plane or something on the PCB has been rendered inoperable. Beyond that, things look OK as far as I can tell. Much better handling than my still-working 20L5 got in just 550 miles from Brooklyn!

Edit: Also, Arasoi says that some of the capacitors might be suspect here, so I'd have a look at those. Could you take a look at the top-right board in the back side view picture? I think those caps might just have a curved vent (cut in the metal) but they possibly could be bulging.

[cr4zymanz0r]

I'm not a repairman by any stretch of the imagination, but there's a couple ideas I have:
- In the top right corner of the very first picture, labeled "left side," is that some white silkscreen under the screw? Or is it a crack? I can't really tell from here. If there is a break, perhaps a ground plane or something on the PCB has been rendered inoperable. Beyond that, things look OK as far as I can tell. Much better handling than my still-working 20L5 got in just 550 miles from Brooklyn!

I took a look at the picture and it looked like a crack to me too. Then I checked out the PCB and found that corner is completely broken but was just being held in place with the screw. It wasn't very apparent at all to the naked eye. I guess the flash from the camera made it more noticeable in the picture. I got excited thinking this might be the issue, but after checking it out the only trace that was "broken" from it was connected right below it too. I verified continuity with a multimeter.

Edit: Also, Arasoi says that some of the capacitors might be suspect here, so I'd have a look at those. Could you take a look at the top-right board in the back side view picture? I think those caps might just have a curved vent (cut in the metal) but they possibly could be bulging.

I took a look at those capacitors too and they're just curved vents. The tops aren't bulging.

When I get enough time I intend to take out all/most of the PCB's for closer inspection since some are buried in pretty deep and hard to see.

[Crafty+Mech]

One suggestion would be to check the end of the neck tube where it connects to the pcb (neck board) for glow when powered on. If you don't see an orangish glow coming from the rgb filaments, then the CRT heater circuit isn't working properly. The neck board would be a good place to start in that case to look for fine cracks and check connections.

[MKL]

pictures of the internals: http://imgur.com/a/fTucX

Thanks. The sticker in the first pic says the tube is A64JKJ10X which is the same tube Sony used in their 27" TVs (which I always suspected). LOL at people thinking PVMs have "high grade" tubes as opposed to "consumer" TV tubes (read this BS many times on this board).

[Xan]

It's just true for this one model, and even then you don't know any specifics of possible hand selection of tubes during production. Guess you can name lots of consumer sets featuring tubes w/ invisible aperture grille if that statement is such BS?

[MKL]

It's just true for this one model

Can you list the tube numbers of the other PVMs? Do you know all tube numbers used in Sony TVs? Regardless, what would your statement mean? That the PVM-2530 is sub-par compared to other PVM models?

and even then you don't know any specifics of possible hand selection of tubes during production.

While you do, right?

Sony tech: "damn, I totally fucked up the convergence on this tube. Let's make sure it will go in some crappy TV and not in one of those awesome PVMs for shmuptards"

Guess you can name lots of consumer sets featuring tubes w/ invisible aperture grille if that statement is such BS?

"invisible aperture grille"... what's that a quote from the Gospel according to Fudoh?

Are you talking about BVMs? Because I'm not...

[Xan]

You have never seen a PVM with HR Trinitron tube, because the difference to a consumer tube is clearly visible when putting them side to side, as long as the observer has two functioning eyes at his disposal. Obvious troll is obvious.

[Ed Oscuro]

MKL's point of reference is obviously the early to mid '80s sets, which would have been uncommon even before the CRT apocalypse due to attrition, and only survive because some people still find a use for them. The late '90s to end of production tubes show up here more often, which shouldn't be a surprise. And this means that some of these assertions about mid '80s Sony don't obviously apply to late Sony monitor production.

There's obviously a difference between the older mid-to-late 80s monitors and TVs, and the much more common late production sets from the late '90s to the end. It may well be that some earlier PVMs had identical tubes with some consumer sets - wouldn't jump to a conclusion about the entire series one way or another based on just a few data points. I already knew of the XBR Pro, which apparently wasn't common anywhere. I don't think it's an incredible leap to point out that different parts of the tube - not just convergence but ability to resolve the "at least" specified resolution, which could be impacted by flaws in the process laying down the phosphors are obvious points - could lead to tube selection.

By the late production Sony monitors clearly were using far different tubes in professional / broadcast monitors and computer monitors, and that isn't up for debate. Likewise with the HVR - that may have been a more common part in earlier sets (I'm guessing to make up for variance in the older power supplies), but by the late '90s it was essentially eliminated from most (or possibly all) professional monitors. It was, however, featured as a distinguishing feature on the kv-fv310 for resisting bloom. Whether it's serving the exact same purpose as on the older sets, or whether it should have been introduced in more sets, probably isn't known to anybody who would tell.

It doesn't really make sense to pollute threads with the "lol Sony" stuff. We aren't living at a time when we could press back against marketing hyperbole; the listed features - high voltage regulation, HR Trinitron, Diamondtron etc. - of existing monitors from various makers are what we have left to work with, not something to argue about. It seems especially strange to try to chip away at the features of PVMs - I'm all for saving and using regular TVs when possible, but they clearly aren't as flexible as PVMs, and in some cases PVMs bring other strong benefits.

Now back to the topic...helping get an old tube back on its feet!

[MKL]

You have never seen a PVM with HR Trinitron tube, because the difference to a consumer tube is clearly visible when putting them side to side,

HR Trinitron tubes (numbered like this for instance) are commonly found in Sony consumer monitors. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the tube in a 20M4 is also found in one of these (as is known Sony yokes are never bonded so the fact they have a low impedence VGA yoke is irrelevant for what lies under the glass envelope) . As you can see, Ed Oscuro, you were wrong in assuming that I was only referring to 80's TVs when I was talking about consumer market.

Last post here, troll leaves

[Xan]

That would be VGA monitors; I already had assumed they would possibly repurpose some of those tubes for their HR Trinitron monitors. You explicitly talked about TVs though, so it still isn't an entirely fair statement; obviously you can't simply run a 15 kHz signal into a VGA monitor to get the same result as a PVM with possibly the same tube.

[MKL]

That would be VGA monitors; I already had assumed they would possibly repurpose some of those tubes for their HR Trinitron monitors. You explicitly talked about TVs though, so it still isn't an entirely fair statement; obviously you can't simply run a 15 kHz signal into a VGA monitor to get the same result as a PVM with possibly the same tube.

What makes it VGA is the yoke, not the tube itself (I thought I had made it clear in my previous post). In fact I managed to remove the yoke from a 14" Toshiba tube in a VGA monitor and replace it with the yoke of a Toshiba tube in a 15Khz TV so now I can run a 15Khz signal into it (it now has a Hantarex MTC9000 chassis). It could be done with a Sony as well. It wouldn't even require a yoke swap, just an impedance adapter.

[Ed Oscuro]

I had assumed you would understand what I meant when I wrote

By the late production Sony monitors clearly were using far different tubes in professional / broadcast monitors and computer monitors, and that isn't up for debate.

where I assumed you would not have forgotten what you were originally arguing - that PVMs and consumer televisions have an indistinguishable picture. There I am consciously implying that computer monitors and PVMs/BVMs may use the same tubes (which you thought you would "educate" us by repeating). And what of it - do you seriously think that we can easily get the same picture, even using the same tube, out of a 480i monitor as from a 31KHz-only monitor?

Possibly some late consumer televisions use the same tubes as higher-spec PVMs. What of it? Are you seriously suggesting that people are wrong to pay for the convenience and reliability of BNC-equipped RGB-ready monitors with sturdy chassis and other features not found on a consumer TV?

Your statement about computer monitors and PVMs having the same tubes is torching straw; literally nobody was saying otherwise. If you think that computer monitors from the late '90s having the same TVL spec, or better, as HD PVMs / high TVL spec BVM is evidence of the dumbness of retrogaming enthusiasts, then perhaps you should reconsider what site you're on - here we primarily want 480i RGBs, not VESA standards; if you went to a site like [H]ard Forum you would find many people interested in old computer monitors. And what of your apparent "Sony pricing conspiracy" angle? In 1999, one could find good 19" PC monitors for well under $1000, but top-end 20" and 21" computer monitors all started around $1000 and some were well more than that - not just Sony, but Viewsonic and Philips had 20" monitors for $1610 and $1485 respectively. It's well-known that the GDM-FW900 probably shares a tube with the BVM-D24 - so what that the BVM was more expensive? Supply and demand, and also the not inconsiderable point that the BVMs were made in far more limited quantities in which to recoup engineering costs. These units are a far cry from the easy-swap arcade chassis of the '80s.

"The tube is the same, and you can swap yokes, so nobody should care about high resolution 480i monitors" ignores the fact that the forum consensus is that these old monitors aren't currently worth much more than $100, a lot of which goes not for the tube but for all the other components to drive it at your desired sync rate. So what if you can swap the yoke? I'd rather start with the right chassis and circuitry to begin with, and not having to swap tubes means that you're not saving any money (including time spent working on a tube swap) over a still-cheap $100 PVM.

So I think you had better do what you said, and take this shit outta here. If you want to talk about tubes and the best chassis for them, that would be a great discussion but not if it's started in the interests of ridiculing fellow forum goers for your own enjoyment.

[22point8]

I think its safe to say that tubes with EBU or SMPTE phosphors were professional only because those phosphors had to meet the colour standards to within a very tight tolerance. Anything with P-22 phosphor is consumer grade (phosphors designed for light output over accuracy).

[Ed Oscuro]

I think its safe to say that tubes with EBU or SMPTE phosphors were professional only because those phosphors had to meet the colour standards to within a very tight tolerance. Anything with P-22 phosphor is consumer grade (phosphors designed for light output over accuracy).

^ Another point worth mentioning. I would agree that for most playing it's a bit silly to put high premiums on these features - especially when games were developed mainly for, and probably often on, the P-22 phosphor, and nobody worried about it. But again, at $100, where is all this supposedly unwarranted PVM hype taking monitor prices?

[cfx]

.

[cr4zymanz0r]

One suggestion would be to check the end of the neck tube where it connects to the pcb (neck board) for glow when powered on. If you don't see an orangish glow coming from the rgb filaments, then the CRT heater circuit isn't working properly. The neck board would be a good place to start in that case to look for fine cracks and check connections.

I checked the neck board PCB and saw no visible issues. With the PVM on (as far on as it gets), I did not see a orangish glow coming from it in a nearly pitch black room. in fact, I could not see a light, glow, or any kind of illumination coming from any part of it at all.

[Crafty+Mech]

One suggestion would be to check the end of the neck tube where it connects to the pcb (neck board) for glow when powered on. If you don't see an orangish glow coming from the rgb filaments, then the CRT heater circuit isn't working properly. The neck board would be a good place to start in that case to look for fine cracks and check connections.

I checked the neck board PCB and saw no visible issues. With the PVM on (as far on as it gets), I did not see a orangish glow coming from it in a nearly pitch black room. in fact, I could not see a light, glow, or any kind of illumination coming from any part of it at all.

Take a close look at the neck tube for cracks. Unfortunately, if the neck is cracked the tube is toast. Hopefully not the issue, but better to find out now before you invest more time trying to figure out the problem.

Otherwise, can you post a hi-res close up of the solder side of the neck board?

[cr4zymanz0r]

Take a close look at the neck tube for cracks. Unfortunately, if the neck is cracked the tube is toast. Hopefully not the issue, but better to find out now before you invest more time trying to figure out the problem.

Otherwise, can you post a hi-res close up of the solder side of the neck board?

I added 3 more pictures to the album http://imgur.com/a/fTucX.
I took a good picture of the back of the neck board, and took a couple of pictures of the neck tube, but I'm not seeing any cracks.

[Crafty+Mech]

Take a close look at the neck tube for cracks. Unfortunately, if the neck is cracked the tube is toast. Hopefully not the issue, but better to find out now before you invest more time trying to figure out the problem.

Otherwise, can you post a hi-res close up of the solder side of the neck board?

I added 3 more pictures to the album http://imgur.com/a/fTucX.
I took a good picture of the back of the neck board, and took a couple of pictures of the neck tube, but I'm not seeing any cracks.

Now that I can clearly see the neck glass, it looks like it is masked off. So not being able to see any neck glow is not surprising, and not an indication of an issue with the rgb heater circuit. The neck board also looks good. So back to square one unfortunately.

[cr4zymanz0r]

Well, I finally got time to devote to the PVM one night and here are my results:

I had already considered it to more than likely be a lost cause, but I thought I would remove all the PCBs to see if any of them had any obvious issues. This would help satisfy my curiosity and also make the thing lighter when I end up hauling it off to dispose of it if it remains hopeless.

I finally got nearly every PCB removed except the power board, but I could see the power board better. It turns out there's a crack that's not immediately obvious that's going through about 1/3 of the power board. So now I have to decide if attempting repair is even worth it due to all the hassle involved:

1.) Identify all the broken traces on the power board, repair them by soldering wires and hoping they're thick enough for the power they'll be transferring, then additionally hope this actually fixes the issue and isn't the only issue.

2.) There are TONS of different wires with pin connectors that connected the various PCBs, and me getting them all connected back together correctly would be a miracle without some documentation.

3.) If I do successfully repair it, get it reassembled correctly, and everything is technically fine then I'd still need to use a bunch of epoxy/glue/duct tape to repair all the case damage to it too. Aesthetically this would would end up looking fairly ghetto in my otherwise classy game room (my wife would probably be pickier about that aspect than me).


I guess at this point I'm just curious of what everyone's opinion is. I've never seen a PVM 'in the wild' ever and probably never will, but this is looking more and more like a giant time sink with iffy prospects of success. Additionally, while not perfect my 27" Sony Trinitron with a RGB to YUV converter works pretty well so I'm not completely SOL on getting RGB video to a CRT.

[Ed Oscuro]

A while after this thread was made, one of our members spotted this:
http://columbus.craigslist.org/ele/4795634584.html

It's expired but somebody in Cleveland had a bunch of ex-broadcast, ex-video wall 2530s for sale.

Personally, having seen some comparison pics between the 2530 and other sets on Neo-Geo.com, these don't seem to deliver the best quality, even when in good shape. But if you require more than 20" then it's one of the few options available.

[cr4zymanz0r]

A while after this thread was made, one of our members spotted this:
http://columbus.craigslist.org/ele/4795634584.html

It's expired but somebody in Cleveland had a bunch of ex-broadcast, ex-video wall 2530s for sale.

Personally, having seen some comparison pics between the 2530 and other sets on Neo-Geo.com, these don't seem to deliver the best quality, even when in good shape. But if you require more than 20" then it's one of the few options available.

I'm in Arkansas, and considering what happened when this one was shipped to me I don't think It would've benefited me much if I had found out about that listing before it expired .

My sweet spot for my setup would be a 25" to 27" CRT. If I got a 20" PVM/BVM for next to nothing I'd probably take it to tinker with in a spare room, but It would be too small for my main setup.

[mvsfan]

I just saw this post. This sounds very similar to what is going on with my monitor. I wish i saw this first. lots of good information here that can probably help me too.

I got a monitor shipped to me and it doesnt work. its doing almost the same thing as this monitor.