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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:08 am 


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the biggest problem to the whole composite and s-video to RGB discussion is that all available solutions are extremely hard to come by. I feel we need an external composite and s-video to RGB add on for the next OSSC. To build it into the machine itself probably isn't worth it, since not enough people will be throwing those signals at a processor like the OSSC, but building a RGB integrator from scratch shouldn't be too hard either, since the comb filter chips are likely still available from TI & Co.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:34 am 


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Yes I couldn't agree more, I'd be happy to help with development and manufacturing of such a device, if necessary.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:18 am 


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retrorgb wrote:
- @Harrumph I believe you're the person who's been posting their settings for the OSSC on the VGP forums. Have you tried making it work on an iScan Micro? The reason I'm asking is if we can get it working with the Micro, that would be a cheap and easy way to make the OSSC compatible with ANY display or capture device. I tried some of your suggested settings and unfortunately didn't have much luck. The SNES refresh rate is just too weird for many displays and capture cards to handle.

I know you can use the VP's, the framemeister and other devices, but the goal is a small, cheap way to make the OSSC compatible with everything without adding much lag. Maybe even something like this?: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14600


No, I haven't needed to try any additional scalers or such as luckily my TV accepts most OSSC signals so far, with some tweaks. Of course, I'm still interested to know just the same as you. Sadly, the user Blair (only one who reported Lx3 Micro compatibility) seems to have gone awol. Only clue he gave was that he changed TX mode from DVI to HDMI.
It does say it should accept XGA (1024x768) and SXGA (1280x1024), which does theoretically open up for Lx3 & Lx4 modes using the 256 V.Active tweaks. But you already tested it, right? Then that's disappointing... (I assume for those modes, TX=DVI should be used) And maybe it depends on both the Micro and the display at the same time. Like that the Micro somewhat increases the tolerance, but only enough for some screens and not others... A lot of unknowns here.

Also it can be debated if the Micro can be called cheap, at MSRP of $129 (though it can be had for sub $100 on amazon/ebay). The other downside seems to be interlaced handling, reportedly awful and I think a lot of people would rather passthrough than use the OSSC bob-doubling.

There's been a handful of other reports of serendipitous compatibility improvements from different random intermediaries, such as HDMI splitters and even those cheap scart to HDMI scalers that also feature an HDMI input. I'd be really interested to know how much lag one of those adds (I'm assuming at least 1 frame, and then it sort of defeats the purpose...), but who knows, maybe not when it's fed a progressive source? I bet you might have one of those lying around, would you mind taking some time to test it out?
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:01 pm 



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@Orange808 - Thanks for all the suggestions. Unfortunately, none of the models listed are available on eBay...except for that $400 Extron (which I definitely wouldn't buy) and the XRGB's which are a bit overkill for this.
Fudoh wrote:
the biggest problem to the whole composite and s-video to RGB discussion is that all available solutions are extremely hard to come by. I feel we need an external composite and s-video to RGB add on for the next OSSC. To build it into the machine itself probably isn't worth it, since not enough people will be throwing those signals at a processor like the OSSC, but building a RGB integrator from scratch shouldn't be too hard either, since the comb filter chips are likely still available from TI & Co.

I actually think having cvbs & S-Video right on a revision of the OSSC is something people would use...but I agree, if someone could make a basic converter I think many of us would buy it.
Harrumph wrote:
There's been a handful of other reports of serendipitous compatibility improvements from different random intermediaries, such as HDMI splitters and even those cheap scart to HDMI scalers that also feature an HDMI input. I'd be really interested to know how much lag one of those adds (I'm assuming at least 1 frame, and then it sort of defeats the purpose...), but who knows, maybe not when it's fed a progressive source? I bet you might have one of those lying around, would you mind taking some time to test it out?

I can actually test those today or tomorrow! Compatibility with my plasma would be nice, but the real issue I'm having is being able to capture SNES video on my Epiphan capture card. I'm crossing my fingers the splitter will work.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:51 pm 


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retrorgb wrote:
I can actually test those today or tomorrow! Compatibility with my plasma would be nice, but the real issue I'm having is being able to capture SNES video on my Epiphan capture card. I'm crossing my fingers the splitter will work.

Great! Forgot to mention, A/V receivers can also have a positive impact on compatibility, but again how much lag that adds hasn't been documented afaik.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:37 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
To build it into the machine itself probably isn't worth it, since not enough people will be throwing those signals at a processor like the OSSC

Are you shitting me? That's literally the only thing holding me back from getting an OSSC, I don't need an additional box just to get S-vid or composite.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:53 pm 



Joined: 04 Jun 2013
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ApolloBoy wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
To build it into the machine itself probably isn't worth it, since not enough people will be throwing those signals at a processor like the OSSC

Are you shitting me? That's literally the only thing holding me back from getting an OSSC, I don't need an additional box just to get S-vid or composite.


LOL, yeah, I already have one since the first batch and I would be trying to pick up another if it could also do s-video and composite. Scrap the integrated audio projects and focus on this!


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:09 pm 



Joined: 25 Dec 2013
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Location: Indiana
The only chip I know off the top of head that can handle YC to RGBs is the old CXA1621S.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:37 pm 



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I did some testing and the HDMI splitter didn't work, but the generic SCART to HDMI scaler did in 3x and 4x modes! It doesn't look bad either...WAY better then letting that scaler do the work. Here's SNES directly into the scaler via 720p on the left and SNES through the OSSC x3 into the scaler via HDMI on the right...it's not good enough for video comparisons, but for just streaming, it seems fine:
Image

I tried getting video footage in OBS, but it looks really bad. I'm assuming it's my settings, so I'll try again in a few days using Amarec or something else.

I noticed that my Neo Geo AES wouldn't work through the OSSC at all. The signal isn't even recognized on the front panel, even when messign with the filter options. Was there ever a fix for this?

Also, for S-Video to RGB: What about the Extron DVS304? Is there a way to turn the scaling off and just use it as a signal converter?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:13 pm 


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retrorgb wrote:
I did some testing and the HDMI splitter didn't work, but the generic SCART to HDMI scaler did in 3x and 4x modes! It doesn't look bad either...WAY better then letting that scaler do the work. Here's SNES directly into the scaler via 720p on the left and SNES through the OSSC x3 into the scaler via HDMI on the right...it's not good enough for video comparisons, but for just streaming, it seems fine:
Image

I tried getting video footage in OBS, but it looks really bad. I'm assuming it's my settings, so I'll try again in a few days using Amarec or something else.

I noticed that my Neo Geo AES wouldn't work through the OSSC at all. The signal isn't even recognized on the front panel, even when messign with the filter options. Was there ever a fix for this?

Also, for S-Video to RGB: What about the Extron DVS304? Is there a way to turn the scaling off and just use it as a signal converter?


Nope. The DVS 304 tries to deinterlace 240p. Also, it has a fixed processing chain. I think that one had about two or three frames of lag. I didn't spend long with the unit, but I quickly decided I didn't like it.

edit: Fudoh probably knows all the specifics. I think he still has one.

Using a video processor before the OSSC will add lag and reduce the OSSC to the role of scan line generator.

If you plan to use a video processor, you would be better off using a DVDO vp30 w/ABT102 card, DVDO vp50 (with the frame rate unlocked), a DVDO vp50pro, a DVDO Edge/Duo, or a Silicon Optix IA-100. The downside is you'll be outputting 480p. I can confirm that all of those processors output decent 240p scaled to 480p.

Another option: You could also use a DVDO HD+. I hear it can output 240p as a custom resolution. That would let you use the OSSC line multiplier, but the HD+ will add lag. Honestly, it would cheaper, faster, and easier to just pick up an old XRGB box. The XRGB boxes can output 240p to the OSSC. I don't have an HD+ and I haven't used one. So, I don't know how well or how fast it works.
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Last edited by orange808 on Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:18 pm 



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retrorgb wrote:
I did some testing and the HDMI splitter didn't work, but the generic SCART to HDMI scaler did in 3x and 4x modes! It doesn't look bad either...WAY better then letting that scaler do the work. Here's SNES directly into the scaler via 720p on the left and SNES through the OSSC x3 into the scaler via HDMI on the right...it's not good enough for video comparisons, but for just streaming, it seems fine:
Image

I tried getting video footage in OBS, but it looks really bad. I'm assuming it's my settings, so I'll try again in a few days using Amarec or something else.

I noticed that my Neo Geo AES wouldn't work through the OSSC at all. The signal isn't even recognized on the front panel, even when messign with the filter options. Was there ever a fix for this?

Also, for S-Video to RGB: What about the Extron DVS304? Is there a way to turn the scaling off and just use it as a signal converter?

Which SCART to HDMI box is this?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:25 pm 



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ZellSF wrote:
Which SCART to HDMI box is this?

This one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0177DG71S/ Keep in mind I only did a few minutes of testing, so maybe we'll find a major flaw in using it. Personally, the only thing I need it for is to capture footage for streaming or just to show parts of games. As long as it doesn't totally suck, it's fine with me. I don't even care about lag, since I'll actually be playing on a CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:28 pm 



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retrorgb wrote:
ZellSF wrote:
Which SCART to HDMI box is this?

This one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0177DG71S/ Keep in mind I only did a few minutes of testing, so maybe we'll find a major flaw in using it. Personally, the only thing I need it for is to capture footage for streaming or just to show parts of games. As long as it doesn't totally suck, it's fine with me. I don't even care about lag, since I'll actually be playing on a CRT.

I just ordered one. I sort of wanted on anyway (for those games that rely heavily on 240p>480i transitions) so hearing that it scaled the HDMI input too (I always assumed it was passthrough) made me buy one.

Can't have enough of terrible quality Chinese products :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:34 pm 


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Quote:
Are you shitting me? That's literally the only thing holding me back from getting an OSSC, I don't need an additional box just to get S-vid or composite.
and
Quote:
LOL, yeah, I already have one since the first batch and I would be trying to pick up another if it could also do s-video and composite. Scrap the integrated audio projects and focus on this!

I didn't say that there's no nobody out there to appreciate composite and s-video connections, but I still think the number of buyers using composite or s-video it too low to justify the additional cost to build it into all units. I think an add-on board with these connections plugging into the system's RGB (or component) input would be a better idea.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:38 pm 


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Quote:
This one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0177DG71S/ Keep in mind I only did a few minutes of testing, so maybe we'll find a major flaw in using it. Personally, the only thing I need it for is to capture footage for streaming or just to show parts of games. As long as it doesn't totally suck, it's fine with me. I don't even care about lag, since I'll actually be playing on a CRT.

took a moment to realize what you're doing here. You're using the converter's HDMI passthrough input to increase compatibility, right ?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:58 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
This one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0177DG71S/ Keep in mind I only did a few minutes of testing, so maybe we'll find a major flaw in using it. Personally, the only thing I need it for is to capture footage for streaming or just to show parts of games. As long as it doesn't totally suck, it's fine with me. I don't even care about lag, since I'll actually be playing on a CRT.

took a moment to realize what you're doing here. You're using the converter's HDMI passthrough input to increase compatibility, right ?

Correct...but only in a scenario where lag wouldn't matter and quality is important, but not vital.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:24 pm 


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citrus3000psi wrote:
The only chip I know off the top of head that can handle YC to RGBs is the old CXA1621S.


Can't you combine something like a MAX9526 PAL/NTSC decoder with some DACs?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:02 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
I didn't say that there's no nobody out there to appreciate composite and s-video connections, but I still think the number of buyers using composite or s-video it too low to justify the additional cost to build it into all units. I think an add-on board with these connections plugging into the system's RGB (or component) input would be a better idea.


A decoder like the TVP5146M2 only costs about € 6 in bulk. If the composite and s-video is routed through the scart connector as you said then it only adds a small amount of cost to the price.

If a separate addon pcb has to be manufactured it will probably cost a lot more than just including the decoder. I mean the OSSC audio pcb costs € 30 already.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:15 pm 


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You can go even cheaper, the TW9960 is only €2.84 in bulk.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:17 pm 


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retrorgb wrote:
I did some testing and the HDMI splitter didn't work, but the generic SCART to HDMI scaler did in 3x and 4x modes!
Great! Let's hope you get some decent capture finally. And even if you only plan to use it as a secondary output for streaming/capture, would you mind testing the lag too? It would be valuable information to those who are looking for options for their main display.

retrorgb wrote:
I noticed that my Neo Geo AES wouldn't work through the OSSC at all. The signal isn't even recognized on the front panel, even when messign with the filter options. Was there ever a fix for this?

There's a couple MVS versions that were impossible to get to work, but the AES should be fine. Marqs added some specific sync tolerance settings, check this thread (info is on the wiki also, but that's still down).
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:19 pm 


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paulb_nl wrote:
Fudoh wrote:
I didn't say that there's no nobody out there to appreciate composite and s-video connections, but I still think the number of buyers using composite or s-video it too low to justify the additional cost to build it into all units. I think an add-on board with these connections plugging into the system's RGB (or component) input would be a better idea.


A decoder like the TVP5146M2 only costs about € 6 in bulk. If the composite and s-video is routed through the scart connector as you said then it only adds a small amount of cost to the price.

If a separate addon pcb has to be manufactured it will probably cost a lot more than just including the decoder. I mean the OSSC audio pcb costs € 30 already.


Well.... Good news. You can grab an evaluation board for about $460 usd! :) What a deal!

Lots of nice features for standard 480i video--except for Macrovision support (in 2017, seriously?). (I bought my first video processor to iron Macrovision nonsense.)

Of course, the burning question is how it handles classic gaming at 240p.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:16 am 



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I apologize if this has already been asked, but I have an OSSC on the way now with the audio board upgrade.

Do I need any specific DVI-D to HDMI adapters to get audio to pass through, or can I use any old adapter?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:05 am 


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Anyone will work.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:47 am 



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orange808 wrote:
Of course, the burning question is how it handles classic gaming at 240p.


Yeah, the big question is how it works with progressive input.. some svideo-to-RGB converters only accept interlaced input, and that won't work for me, as for example C64 has progressive output.

We should figure out a svideo-to-RGB converter solution that supports both progressive and interlaced svideo input.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:51 pm 


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Nrg wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Of course, the burning question is how it handles classic gaming at 240p.


Yeah, the big question is how it works with progressive input.. some svideo-to-RGB converters only accept interlaced input, and that won't work for me, as for example C64 has progressive output.

We should figure out a svideo-to-RGB converter solution that supports both progressive and interlaced svideo input.


The Commodore 64 outputs 320x200 at a weird voltage. It's not svideo. There's chroma and luma, but the voltages aren't standard.

240p is progressive. Instead of drawing all the lines 30 times, 240p draws half of them 60 times. It redraws all the lines every pass. It's progressive. So, there's that. The question of how the chip handles input that isn't 480i (interlaced) was implied.

The C64 is a bit of strange duck.

Thanks for chiming in.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:21 pm 



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Well I have some good news regarding my new 4k samsung ks8000 and the ossc. It received a firmware update and I also installed the audio upgrade board from videogameperfection and now 240p and 480p work. Before this I could only get 240p to work.

Lastly I bought the dvdo micro from orange however this is no good for my tv as it causes the image to be stretched to 16:9 and my tv does not allow aspect ratio contol at 4k. the 4:3 16:9 or custom fit is only available for 1080p and below.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:34 pm 


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Lastly I bought the dvdo micro from orange however this is no good for my tv as it causes the image to be stretched to 16:9 and my tv does not allow aspect ratio contol at 4k. the 4:3 16:9 or custom fit is only available for 1080p and below.

and 720p (pillarboxed 4:3) from the OSSC into the Micro doesn't work for you ?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:16 pm 



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No my tv will only accept 240p or 480p from the ossc by itself.


The dvdo micro only works for 480p. It seems the micro may pass through the other resolutions like 720p and 1080p without scaling as the tv shows unsupported resolution with or without using the micro.


Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
Lastly I bought the dvdo micro from orange however this is no good for my tv as it causes the image to be stretched to 16:9 and my tv does not allow aspect ratio contol at 4k. the 4:3 16:9 or custom fit is only available for 1080p and below.

and 720p (pillarboxed 4:3) from the OSSC into the Micro doesn't work for you ?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:37 pm 


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The OSSC can't output 240p.
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 Post subject: Re: DIY video digitizer & scandoubler
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:05 am 



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It can via passthrough.


Xyga wrote:
The OSSC can't output 240p.


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