Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

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Drjebus
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Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Drjebus »

Alright fellow modders and retro-tech enthusiasts, I've completed my collection of hardware devices, and linked them together with many meters of cabling. What follows is a description of my setup, complete with photographic evidence. This was a true labor of love, and I have many thanks to specific community members for making this possible.

First, the beginning: The Nintendo 64 console which I rescued from a box next to a dumpster. This rugged machine was one of the coveted models which has the coveted VDC-NUS A chip built in (a link that explains what this means)

I performed this mod to install an RGB amp into the N64 motherboard.

I bought this cable to get RGB video from the console out to SCART (Note: Wired for Composite Video in the drop-down menu).
Then bought this cable to get RGB video from the SCART connector to BNC 4 connectors (and RCA stereo audio).
These finally terminated into the SONY TRINITRON PVM-1910. Mine was perviously owned by a hospital.

The result is beautiful and perfect, though the display does show mild artifact and pixel bleeding in some areas, as well as curious sync destabilization on the bottom half of the monitor when displaying a primarily white image.

Other sort of problem: the PVM 1910 only does mono sound. Even stranger, the audio input and output terminals are 1/8" (3.5mm) mono audio, not RCA. Future solution to this will involve sending the audio to an external 2.1 stereo system.

Next step, I mentioned that the PVM 1910 has audio in and out. Well as it happens, the 1910 handles RGB video out as well! This means I didn't have to buy a SCART splitter amp for this particular project(though you may still want one if you would prefer to avoid unplugging one console to plug in another). I bought =http://www.retrogamingcables.com/sony- ... this cable to begin the journey to my capture card. It should be noted: the dude who runs that site was *extremely* helpful. When I described what I wanted this cable to do, he actually reversed my accidental purchase, replaced it with the correct one, and refunded me the difference.

Next, I needed a Sync Strike. Truth be told, I could have built my own, but I didn't wanna. The device sold by arcadeforge has drop-down menus to include an enclosure, power supply, and EU -> US or EU -> UK outlet adapter, each for extra cost.

After that, this next part is not "required," but I wanted to artificially induce scanlines on my video signal. The solution I chose was the Scanline Generator SLG3000. This thing is rad, and incredibly simple for the user: toggle switch turns it on/off. Knob is twisted to control scanline intensity.

Next on the chain gang, we need something to translate the 15khz video signal from the RGB display to something the video capture card will be able to interpret: a CGA to VGA board. There are multiple brand options, but I picked the Gonbes 8200. My board came with a package of jumpers, designed to wire into the power supply of an arcade cabinet, but that's not what I'm mounting it on. I got a third party AC adapter (the specifications available online, and with the included documentation, have details regarding which type of adapter to use).

Finally, everything connected, the video signal finally terminates into the VGA port on the AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD. Audio actually splits out from the Sync Strike with female RCA ports. I used a stereo audio male RCA to 3.5mm stereo mini cable into the Line In port on my on-board soundcard.

Finally, it's all software at this point. I use Amarec, because it's free. The capture card came with some capture software, but the video options are much less robust.

It's worth mentioning that the audio and video on the capture card lags behind the PVM signal by about half a second, so it's absolutely unplayable as a primary A/V option. Luckily, I only wanted the capture card to broadcast on Twitch :)

(I know, I promised photos, and they'll be added eventually!)
(I need to thank some people. I will add all of your names/usernames at once, after I collect them!)
R64
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by R64 »

Nice work!
Let's see those photos though ;)
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cathoderaze
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by cathoderaze »

Whoa this is really awesome! I've been wondering if anyone has been able to capture an RGB signal for broadcasting.
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BuckoA51
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by BuckoA51 »

After that, this next part is not "required," but I wanted to artificially induce scanlines on my video signal. The solution I chose was the Scanline Generator SLG3000. This thing is rad, and incredibly simple for the user: toggle switch turns it on/off. Knob is twisted to control scanline intensity.
You want fake scanlines for your Twitch streams? Generally I'd advise against that since you never know what kind of display your viewers will be watching on, so your stream will be re-scaled to all kinds of resolutions and the scanlines will just look crap.
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blizzz
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by blizzz »

I'm curious about a link to one of your Twitch VODs or at least some screenshots. Capturing scanlines is not a great idea for several reasons, but I know that you need scanlines to hide the deinterlacing problems of the GBS-8220. Also I think you switched the position of the SLG 3000 in your description. Sync Strike > SLG > GBS shouldn't work as the SLG needs a 31kHz / 480p signal.

Edit: Hope you don't mind me posting this, but here's his most recent VOD: http://www.twitch.tv/drjebus/b/565322115
Rendering the scanlines doesn't work at that bitrate. The result is a mush in motion and overall loss in clarity.
Compared to this VOD I would definitely prefer the one without scanlines, even though I love scanlines on my CRT and Framemeister.

Edit2: When you pause at the file select screen you can see that the scanlines are off. I had the same problem with the GBS-8220 and it took me hours of adjusting the settings before I gave up on it and bought a proper line doubler.
Last edited by blizzz on Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thomago
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Thomago »

Also contrast and brightness seem VERY off.
Drjebus
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Drjebus »

blizzz wrote:I'm curious about a link to one of your Twitch VODs or at least some screenshots. Capturing scanlines is not a great idea for several reasons, but I know that you need scanlines to hide the deinterlacing problems of the GBS-8220. Also I think you switched the position of the SLG 3000 in your description. Sync Strike > SLG > GBS shouldn't work as the SLG needs a 31kHz / 480p signal.

Edit: Hope you don't mind me posting this, but here's his most recent VOD: http://www.twitch.tv/drjebus/b/565322115
Rendering the scanlines doesn't work at that bitrate. The result is a mush in motion and overall loss in clarity.
Compared to this VOD I would definitely prefer the one without scanlines, even though I love scanlines on my CRT and Framemeister.

Edit2: When you pause at the file select screen you can see that the scanlines are off. I had the same problem with the GBS-8220 and it took me hours of adjusting the settings before I gave up on it and bought a proper line doubler.
Thanks for the comments folks. Yeah, posting my VOD is totally cool :)

I don't get *why*, but the video signal at default settings in AmaRec is super ultra dark. I have to crank the contrast and brightness to reach visible clarity, but then the black levels are all dark grey : /

Clarification: lag is much less than I thought, I just embellished because I'm really sensitive to it. It's around .15 to .2 seconds. Related pro-tip: don't panic if you notice high lag while you're stretching Mario's face around at the title screen, this part lags because of game design.

Also, I must not know what "good" scanlines are, compared to "bad." I felt pretty satisfied with the result, but are you saying I could get it to look better? ^-^

I'll get the pictures up soon, I promise!
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cools
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by cools »

Are those scanlines even remotely correct for an N64? They appear to be doublespaced.
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blizzz
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by blizzz »

Yes, there's still room for improvement. And you don't need a super expensive Framemeister for that.

Image

Loot at the lines of the text in that screenshot. On a CRT there is one darker / black line between each line of the image. Dark line - white line of text - dark line. Most of the text is correct, but the bottom row has a dark line on top of the text. That happens because the GBS-8220 doesn't linedouble the picture correctly. You can improve it by playing around with one of the settings. I haven't used it in years, so I can't say exactly where it is. I'm not sure why you have to crank up the brightness though. Is it also too dark when you plug the VGA output of the scaler directly into a monitor?

If you want to step up your setup you could replace the GBS-8200 and Aver card with a $100 PEXHDCAP that can take the 15kHz signal from the SyncStrike directly (without the SLG3000 though). If you still want scanlines you could add them in OBS as an overlay though.

I'm working on my website about capturing / streaming retro consoles at the moment, which should come online in the next days or weeks.
Drjebus
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Drjebus »

blizzz wrote:Yes, there's still room for improvement. And you don't need a super expensive Framemeister for that.

Image

Loot at the lines of the text in that screenshot. On a CRT there is one darker / black line between each line of the image. Dark line - white line of text - dark line. Most of the text is correct, but the bottom row has a dark line on top of the text. That happens because the GBS-8220 doesn't linedouble the picture correctly. You can improve it by playing around with one of the settings. I haven't used it in years, so I can't say exactly where it is. I'm not sure why you have to crank up the brightness though. Is it also too dark when you plug the VGA output of the scaler directly into a monitor?

If you want to step up your setup you could replace the GBS-8200 and Aver card with a $100 PEXHDCAP that can take the 15kHz signal from the SyncStrike directly (without the SLG3000 though). If you still want scanlines you could add them in OBS as an overlay though.

I'm working on my website about capturing / streaming retro consoles at the moment, which should come online in the next days or weeks.
Yeah the PEXHDCAP was actually what I was going for at first, but went with this card as it has compatibility RE inputs.

Hopefully the Aver card is still the better choice for HD sources? I'd hate for the first card to be a wash : /

A scanline overlay is a very clever solution. Why didn't I think of that?

With regards to putting signal directly to a VGA monitor: yes! It does remove *almost* all of the problems with darkness. The colors don't pop out *nearly* as well. I'll screw about with the colors and such, and collect more photos for comparison, but I gotta bounce off to work now.

Thanks blizzz, you're an absolute bro! BuckoA51, Thomago, cools, thanks for the feedback :D
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by airs »

What's the advantage of this setup vs using an xrgb mini's hdmi output to a capture card?
Drjebus
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Drjebus »

airs wrote:What's the advantage of this setup vs using an xrgb mini's hdmi output to a capture card?
I'm not as familiar with that device as I could be. Would an XRGB mini accept RGB input from my PVM?
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blizzz
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by blizzz »

The Framemeister would outperform the GBS-8200 in every way, but it also costs a lot. Since he already has a SyncStrike the PEXHDCAP would very close to a Framemeister setup. For streaming there's most likely no difference between a Framemeister and the PEXHDCAP (= SC-500N1) because of the compression and the PEXHDCAP is a lot cheaper.
Drjebus
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Drjebus »

blizzz wrote:The Framemeister would outperform the GBS-8200 in every way, but it also costs a lot. Since he already has a SyncStrike the PEXHDCAP would very close to a Framemeister setup. For streaming there's most likely no difference between a Framemeister and the PEXHDCAP (= SC-500N1) because of the compression and the PEXHDCAP is a lot cheaper.
Definitely strongly considering the PEX right now.

Another interesting note: input lag disappears when sending to VGA display instead of capture card.

I have the good fortune of having two wildly different VGA displays to test with. Both are LCD, and one is more feature-laden: it has multiple pre-set display modes, including an RGB setting. If anything, this bit of research, trial and error proves how amazing the RGB displays are compared to everything else. Even on the RGB setting the colors on complex textures on the VGA LCD don't look nearly as vibrant as on the PVM. Even having knobs to turn for brightness/contrast/saturation is so much more accomodating than the sensor buttons on modern displays!
airs
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by airs »

VGA LCDs? As in they have VGA dsub input? What is the native resolution on them?

I'd fully expect input lag to decrease without the capture card in the chain.
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Drjebus »

airs wrote:VGA LCDs? As in they have VGA dsub input? What is the native resolution on them?

I'd fully expect input lag to decrease without the capture card in the chain.
Yeah, thanks for the terminology clarification :)

One of the LCDs has a VGA input only. The newer, fancier one has individual HDMI and VGA ports. If a digital device has a VGA terminal, we call it D-SUB?

Native resolution on the newer one is 1920 x 1080, though it has a 4:3 aspect ratio setting in the menu (which kicks ass, as I feel physical pain when viewing any 4:3 content in fat-people mode). Strangely, this display has better black levels if I tell it to display at 1600 x 900.

The older one I think is something odd, like 1650 x 1050. Will update/clarify when I get home :D
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blizzz
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

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Here's a comparison between SC-500N1 (PEXHDCAP) and Framemeister: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/90597

The difference is very tiny, but there is some noise that I can't get rid of on the SC-500N1. The Framemeister has basically no noise, because the SCART cable is very high quality. The problem is that the cable doesn't have the power line to power the SyncStrike. If I use an external PSU to power the SyncStrike I get a bit of extra noise. I even sacrificed a PSU to connect it directly to that damn screw terminal. In the end I got the best results on the SC-500N1 with a 3rd party Gamecube SCART cable. You might be able to reduce the noise with a better shielded cable that has the 12V pin ( pin 8 ) connected to 5V.

Overall I'd say the Framemeister is a bit ahead because of the horizontal scaling, but the difference is tiny. Also keep in mind that these screenshots are uncompressed. Once you encode them the difference will be even smaller.
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by BuckoA51 »

I'm working on my website about capturing / streaming retro consoles at the moment, which should come online in the next days or weeks.
Let me know when that's up, I'd be interested to read it and I'll put a link from my site too.
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Drjebus
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Drjebus »

blizzz wrote:Here's a comparison between SC-500N1 (PEXHDCAP) and Framemeister: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/90597

The difference is very tiny, but there is some noise that I can't get rid of on the SC-500N1. The Framemeister has basically no noise, because the SCART cable is very high quality. The problem is that the cable doesn't have the power line to power the SyncStrike. If I use an external PSU to power the SyncStrike I get a bit of extra noise. I even sacrificed a PSU to connect it directly to that damn screw terminal. In the end I got the best results on the SC-500N1 with a 3rd party Gamecube SCART cable. You might be able to reduce the noise with a better shielded cable that has the 12V pin ( pin 8 ) connected to 5V.

Overall I'd say the Framemeister is a bit ahead because of the horizontal scaling, but the difference is tiny. Also keep in mind that these screenshots are uncompressed. Once you encode them the difference will be even smaller.
Seeing is believing, but the difference is not *that* staggering, especially after you mentioned the uncompressed factor. Thanks for the comparison link, that's money.
Drjebus
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Drjebus »

blizzz wrote:Yes, there's still room for improvement. And you don't need a super expensive Framemeister for that.

Image

Loot at the lines of the text in that screenshot. On a CRT there is one darker / black line between each line of the image. Dark line - white line of text - dark line. Most of the text is correct, but the bottom row has a dark line on top of the text. That happens because the GBS-8220 doesn't linedouble the picture correctly. You can improve it by playing around with one of the settings. I haven't used it in years, so I can't say exactly where it is. I'm not sure why you have to crank up the brightness though. Is it also too dark when you plug the VGA output of the scaler directly into a monitor?

If you want to step up your setup you could replace the GBS-8200 and Aver card with a $100 PEXHDCAP that can take the 15kHz signal from the SyncStrike directly (without the SLG3000 though). If you still want scanlines you could add them in OBS as an overlay though.

I'm working on my website about capturing / streaming retro consoles at the moment, which should come online in the next days or weeks.
Alright, time for some old thread bumps. I want to attempt the overlay idea.

Can you folks tell me, if I were to create a jpg or png or bmp of some scanlines, what's the simplest way to count the number of lines I'll need, and the thickness? I hope there's an easier method than just counting them...
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blizzz
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by blizzz »

Are you still using the GBS-8220 + Aver capture card? There's a custom firmware that would fix the scaling issues you had. Not sure if it's done yet, but you can read about it in this thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52172
Drjebus
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Re: Success Story: A fully functional RGB capture setup!

Post by Drjebus »

Most excellent, reading that now.
Thanks :D
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