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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:16 pm 


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citrus3000psi wrote:
I've created my analog board. It will work with the same QSB that the new HDMI board is supposed to use. They might even be stackable :idea:

Does stackable mean it might be possible to have a HDMI and Analog board in the same GameCube?

I have just been thinking how great it would be to have a combined HDMI and analog board which offered RGBs/RGBHV/YPbPr connections, perhaps with a jumper for selecting between RGB and Component output.

Would be nice to have a Wii with 31kHz RGB output :)


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm 


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retrorgb wrote:
Don't take it personally, you were just the loudest person in this thread about it recently.

...you're right though, when taken out of context it almost sounds like I'm referring to an accusation you made, which you clearly did not. I'll edit.


I overreacted a bit too, so we were both in the wrong. Hopefully Badass gets his board out fine and we can be done with the topic.

citrus3000psi wrote:
Speaking of which I need to get my wii hdmi mod done. Maybe I'll do some testing this week :P


Did your move go alright if you don't mind me asking? Or are you stuck with a temporary workshop for now?


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:33 pm 



Joined: 25 Dec 2013
Posts: 171
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Link83 wrote:
Does stackable mean it might be possible to have a HDMI and Analog board in the same GameCube?

I have just been thinking how great it would be to have a combined HDMI and analog board which offered RGBs/RGBHV/YPbPr connections, perhaps with a jumper for selecting between RGB and Component output.



Yes, I plan to have both HDMI & analog boards in the same cube. The analog board has a solder pad for you to choose between RGB or YPbPr. (You could easily wire this to a switch if desired).


Quote:
Did your move go alright if you don't mind me asking? Or are you stuck with a temporary workshop for now?


I'm still in my temp workshop (AKA mom's garage lol). I get possesion of my new house on May 5th. Then the fun really begins :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:53 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
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I think I'm still going to proceed with the HDMI sound. I want to keep my Digital and Analog A/V outs, so I don't mind if a rectangular piece for the HDMI cable is cut out out of the Cube.

Here's my ideal Cube:

Sound: HDMI (GCVideo?)
Picture 1: Official Nintendo Component Cables (YPbPr) for GameCube games
Picture 2: CSync RGB for GB/GBC/GBA games (GCVideo Lite?)


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:00 pm 


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citrus3000psi wrote:
I'm still in my temp workshop (AKA mom's garage lol). I get possesion of my new house on May 5th. Then the fun really begins :roll:


I've helped my brother move several times, but those were all 1 or 2 bedroom apartments and just his stuff. Good luck lol

GeneraLight wrote:
I think I'm still going to proceed with the HDMI sound. I want to keep my Digital and Analog A/V outs, so I don't mind if a rectangular piece for the HDMI cable is cut out out of the Cube.

Here's my ideal Cube:

Sound: HDMI (GCVideo?)
Picture 1: Official Nintendo Component Cables (YPbPr) for GameCube games
Picture 2: CSync RGB for GB/GBC/GBA games (GCVideo Lite?)


What was your argument for HDMI instead of TOSlink again? They will sound identical, it's more a matter of what type of cable you want coming out of the Cube.

Do you already own component cables? What does CSync RGB offer you over YPbPr? Do you have a display that will only accept RGB?


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:10 pm 


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BazookaBen wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
Einzelherz wrote:
Hell, the SNES has surround sound on some games.

Yes, but it's not "true" surround sound since it is still condensed into 2 audio channels (stereo) like the N64, GCN and Wii.


And PS1 and PS2 and maybe Dreamcast. Only a few PS2 games had Dolby Digital or DTS, most had Pro Logic 2.

But whether it's "true" surround sound is not I just an opinion. I think they qualify as true, just not as high quality.


I think the term used in the industry for 'true' surround is "discrete", meaning each channel is dedicated its own line rather than being a matrixed piggy-back stereo design. My receiver decodes everything from Pro Logic all the way up to those ridiculous 100.8 speaker setups (just joking, but you get the idea), and I will say I can cleanly hear the difference between the quality of analog stereo matrixed surround and actual digital discrete surround. The latter not only having much better clarity, but also more more distinct control over sound direction. So I'm in the camp that feels stereo-matrixed surround is more a gimmick that can't hold a candle to discrete digital surround.
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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:55 pm 


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[quote="bobrocks95"What was your argument for HDMI instead of TOSlink again? They will sound identical, it's more a matter of what type of cable you want coming out of the Cube.

Do you already own component cables? What does CSync RGB offer you over YPbPr? Do you have a display that will only accept RGB?[/quote]

In modern systems, TOSLINK is limited since it lacks enough bandwidth to support uncompressed 5.1. This does not affect the GameCube, since it only supports two actual channels, and TOSLINK can handle that just fine.

That said, some sound systems have HDMI inputs but no TOSLINK inputs.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:12 pm 


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I already described this in some other thread, but well...

I have a bunch of Dolby Pro Logic II enabled GC games and Dolby Pro Logic II capable decoder, but I've never heard anything resembling surround sound from my (PAL) Gamecube; positional audio just doesn't seem to work. Meanwhile, Dolby Pro Logic II enabled PS2 games produce perfectly clear surround sound.

What's going on here? Can it be that the analog audio section of the (PAL) Gamecube is so very botched that it produces undecodable signals?


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:17 pm 


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FBX wrote:
So I'm in the camp that feels stereo-matrixed surround is more a gimmick that can't hold a candle to discrete digital surround.


The games were still designed with it in mind, though. Surely you still play Gamecube/PS2/Wii games in Pro Logic II surround sound right?

Thomago wrote:
I already described this in some other thread, but well...

I have a bunch of Dolby Pro Logic II enabled GC games and Dolby Pro Logic II capable decoder, but I've never heard anything resembling surround sound from my (PAL) Gamecube; positional audio just doesn't seem to work. Meanwhile, Dolby Pro Logic II enabled PS2 games produce perfectly clear surround sound.

What's going on here? Can it be that the analog audio section of the (PAL) Gamecube is so very botched that it produces undecodable signals?


The first game I tried when I got a surround sound system was Super Mario Sunshine, and after setting the audio to "Surround" in the main menu I noticed it right away. Going near a waterfall or something else making a constant noise and spinning the camera around makes it really clear.

I forget, but there might be a setting in the console setup menu (the one you get when you don't put a disc in) for audio as well, make sure it's on stereo, or surround if that's a choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:38 pm 


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Well, what do you know.

I just fired up my Gamecube with Zelda: Twilight Princess and for whatever reason what did producy only mushy sh*t the last time I tested it (and I tested for quite some time) now produces reasonable surround sound.

Nice!


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:57 pm 


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citrus3000psi wrote:
Yes, I plan to have both HDMI & analog boards in the same cube. The analog board has a solder pad for you to choose between RGB or YPbPr. (You could easily wire this to a switch if desired).

Sounds great :)

Do you think a combined HDMI and analog board for the Wii would be possible? (I'm guessing theres not enough space to fit the stackable design inside the Wii?)


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:31 pm 



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Posts: 770
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bobrocks95 wrote:
What was your argument for HDMI instead of TOSlink again? They will sound identical, it's more a matter of what type of cable you want coming out of the Cube.

Do you already own component cables? What does CSync RGB offer you over YPbPr? Do you have a display that will only accept RGB?

I dunno. HDMI seems like a simpler and more standard connection. Yes, I do own component cables.

CSync RGB offers color accuracy since GB/GBC/GBA games were developed with the RGB color space. No, I do not have a display that will only display RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:36 pm 


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GB games were not developed with the RGB colour space. They weren't developed to have colour in the first place. Palette indexes are just to a certain brightness value, and even Nintendo has used radically different colours to represent them on different platforms, both because of physical properties of the screens (DMG vs GBP) and because of colourization settings (GB on GBC/GBA/GCN vs GB on SGB vs GB on VC).

Using 4-index palettes that only has 4 possible values might seem silly, but it enables both palette animation tricks, and allows the game to use something other than white as the transparency index.

GBC/GBA, sure. RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:04 pm 



Joined: 25 Dec 2013
Posts: 171
Location: Indiana
Link83 wrote:
citrus3000psi wrote:
Yes, I plan to have both HDMI & analog boards in the same cube. The analog board has a solder pad for you to choose between RGB or YPbPr. (You could easily wire this to a switch if desired).

Sounds great :)

Do you think a combined HDMI and analog board for the Wii would be possible? (I'm guessing theres not enough space to fit the stackable design inside the Wii?)



I'm sure I could design an analog board to fit in the Wii. But is component really not good enough? :wink: I've never looked at what it would take to get the code to work properly on gc-video lite with the Wii.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:06 pm 


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IMO it's wasteful on a console that already supports 480p over component, and effort is better spent on HDMI mods for the Wii.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:26 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
CSync RGB offers color accuracy since GB/GBC/GBA games were developed with the RGB color space.

This is complete nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:34 pm 


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citrus3000psi wrote:
Link83 wrote:
citrus3000psi wrote:
Yes, I plan to have both HDMI & analog boards in the same cube. The analog board has a solder pad for you to choose between RGB or YPbPr. (You could easily wire this to a switch if desired).

Sounds great :)

Do you think a combined HDMI and analog board for the Wii would be possible? (I'm guessing theres not enough space to fit the stackable design inside the Wii?)



I'm sure I could design an analog board to fit in the Wii. But is component really not good enough? :wink: I've never looked at what it would take to get the code to work properly on gc-video lite with the Wii.

Well the Wii has a poorer component signal quality than the GameCube:-
http://retrorgb.com/gamecubevswii.html
I believe the Wii DAC's flicker filter is at least partially responsible for the softer (blurrier) image.

Also IMO it would also be nice if all the pre-HDMI systems could support RGB output in all video modes (15kHz/31kHz).


Last edited by Link83 on Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:01 pm 


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Not really a good comparison, the first shot there is more the camera being out of focus on the Wii, and the difference in the second photo is much less severe.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:51 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 91
Well, it would be really interesting if a mod allowed 31KHz RGB for either Xbox or Wii in order to output 480p and/or 720p through SCART... but I don't see it. I mean, it is way more difficult than just connecting to a YPbPr cable and then to a SCART. And also, the quality difference is quite small.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:57 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Not really a good comparison, the first shot there is more the camera being out of focus on the Wii, and the difference in the second photo is much less severe.

There are plenty of other comparisons pictures online, and the signals have even been compared with an oscilloscope:-
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51789&p=1057860#p1057860


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:06 pm 


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Link83 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Not really a good comparison, the first shot there is more the camera being out of focus on the Wii, and the difference in the second photo is much less severe.

There are plenty of other comparisons pictures online, and the signals have even been compared with an oscilloscope:-
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51789&p=1057860#p1057860


Oscilliscope comparisons are not useful in determining which looks subjectively better. Sure, there's a difference, in practice it's not enormous.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:20 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 770
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Extrems wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
CSync RGB offers color accuracy since GB/GBC/GBA games were developed with the RGB color space.

This is complete nonsense.

So HDMI or Component is more accurate?


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:23 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Link83 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Not really a good comparison, the first shot there is more the camera being out of focus on the Wii, and the difference in the second photo is much less severe.

There are plenty of other comparisons pictures online, and the signals have even been compared with an oscilloscope:-
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51789&p=1057860#p1057860


Oscilliscope comparisons are not useful in determining which looks subjectively better. Sure, there's a difference, in practice it's not enormous.

I never said the difference was enormous, just that there IS a difference.

This is the sort of place for people who want to get the absolute very best audio/video possible from their console. Even if a mod only offers a 1% improvement in picture quality there are people who would want that.

All i'm saying is that it would be nice to have the option for high quality analog video output on the Wii, as well as HDMI.


Last edited by Link83 on Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:34 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 91
GeneraLight wrote:
Extrems wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
CSync RGB offers color accuracy since GB/GBC/GBA games were developed with the RGB color space.

This is complete nonsense.

So HDMI or Component is more accurate?


RGB is an analog way of non compressed color information. HDMI is "the same," but digital. Thus, better.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:38 pm 



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DiegoPonga wrote:
RGB is an analog way of non compressed color information. HDMI is "the same," but digital. Thus, better.

Ah okay. Although I want to use a CRT, so I should probably opt for analog RGB.

Or output HDMI and transcode it to analog RGB before it goes into the CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:41 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 335
Guspaz wrote:
Not really a good comparison, the first shot there is more the camera being out of focus on the Wii, and the difference in the second photo is much less severe.

The picture is there as an example. Same focus for both too. Either way, the pic is a moot point, here's the proof: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51789

I can easily tell the difference on a good display between one of the "bad" model Wii's and the GC.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:51 pm 


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The GC/Wii renders in 4:4:4 RGB and converts to 4:2:2 YCbCr for the video encoder.

This is then converted back to 4:4:4 RGB by the video encoder in the case of SCART/VGA/DVI, or by the video sink in the case of component video.


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:57 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 91
GeneraLight wrote:
DiegoPonga wrote:
RGB is an analog way of non compressed color information. HDMI is "the same," but digital. Thus, better.

Ah okay. Although I want to use a CRT, so I should probably opt for analog RGB.

Or output HDMI and transcode it to analog RGB before it goes into the CRT.


Then, yes, your best option is SCART.

Extrems wrote:
The GC/Wii renders in 4:4:4 RGB and converts to 4:2:2 YCbCr for the video encoder.

This is then converted back to 4:4:4 RGB by the video encoder in the case of SCART/VGA/DVI, or by the video sink in the case of component video.


The problem is Wii won't output 480p through 4:4:4 RGB, but only through YPbPr. So far, Wii would output 480i through a SCART cable. I think it is interesting if somebody eventually created some bypass or some mod that allow us to output 480p and 4:4:4 RGB through SCART


Last edited by DiegoPonga on Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:59 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 335
Extrems wrote:
The GC/Wii renders in 4:4:4 RGB and converts to 4:2:2 YCbCr for the video encoder.

This is then converted back to 4:4:4 RGB by the video encoder in the case of SCART/VGA/DVI, or by the video sink in the case of component video.

Thanks for the info Extrems! I've actually been trying to find a solid answer about this for awhile now: When the GCVideo is connected, does it take video before the encoder and keep it in 4:4:4, or does it pull from the video encoder in 4:2:2?


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 Post subject: Re: Cloning the Gamecube component cable
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:02 am 


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retrorgb wrote:
Thanks for the info Extrems! I've actually been trying to find a solid answer about this for awhile now: When the GCVideo is connected, does it take video before the encoder and keep it in 4:4:4, or does it pull from the video encoder in 4:2:2?

GCVideo is the video encoder.


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