shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:58 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 200 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:57 am 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 18067
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs
I'm sure you thought of this, but where on the monitor (left-right) are those numbers displayed? (I haven't used a lag tester so this is mostly honest curiosity.) They should all be in a straight row, one immediately above the other. And on that note I wonder if the pixel addressing hardware in the set has some kind of unusual quirk that causes significant differences in response in different sections. Doesn't make sense to me though.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:07 am 



Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Posts: 242
Location: NTSC-US
the bars are toward the left side of the monitor and the number is displayed near the middle. The original post by Fudoh has a good picture of how it is laid out.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:51 am 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 18067
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs
I see it now. The bars don't look wide enough to provoke such a big discrepancy from one side to another. I wonder what happens if you hold the sensor over the bottom left portion of each bar, though.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:33 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2012
Posts: 436
Location: Finland
NWrain wrote:
I used the Leo tester on my new Eizo Foris FS2333. Here are my results. The picture order is top bar, middle bar, and bottom bar. What does this mean? Do I have a nearly lagless monitor, or a monitor with 1 frame of lag?
Does the lag tester provide an option to select which of those bars you use as the target? If not, the numbers look valid since there is ~14ms difference between the top and bottom bar (in input signal too). Funny that the lag seems to be only 2ms on HDMI, my FS2333 measured ~7ms on VGA.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:47 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 10508
Location: Germany
But how does a difference of nearly a frame between the upper and lower bar make any sense ? I get the little differences. The picture is drawn top line to bottom line and since the lag tester uses certain minimum brightness to measure the lag it makes sense to get a difference in the readings. But LCD are hold-type displays, which means a picture a frame is created is then hold until the next frame is ready for display. If a screen took a whole frame to draw a single frame, you'd see tearing, since the top of the screen would get overwritten by a new frame, while the lower part is still shown from the previous frame.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:29 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2012
Posts: 436
Location: Finland
Fudoh wrote:
But how does a difference of nearly a frame between the upper and lower bar make any sense ? I get the little differences. The picture is drawn top line to bottom line and since the lag tester uses certain minimum brightness to measure the lag it makes sense to get a difference in the readings. But LCD are hold-type displays, which means a picture a frame is created is then hold until the next frame is ready for display. If a screen took a whole frame to draw a single frame, you'd see tearing, since the top of the screen would get overwritten by a new frame, while the lower part is still shown from the previous frame.
I was speculating that earlier in this thread, but the LCDs I've tested (Eizo FS2333 and Nec 1990SXi) refresh the pixels at the same rate as the input signal according to the results - from top-left to bottom right. I guess it's harder to see the tearing since it's not in the same place for the frame duration (vs video source not being synced to vblank).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:28 am 



Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Posts: 242
Location: NTSC-US
Ed Oscuro wrote:
I see it now. The bars don't look wide enough to provoke such a big discrepancy from one side to another. I wonder what happens if you hold the sensor over the bottom left portion of each bar, though.


I don't get a stable reading. It takes a while to search for a stable reading.

marqs wrote:
Does the lag tester provide an option to select which of those bars you use as the target? If not, the numbers look valid since there is ~14ms difference between the top and bottom bar (in input signal too). Funny that the lag seems to be only 2ms on HDMI, my FS2333 measured ~7ms on VGA.


The lag tester shows all three bars at the same time. One on top, middle, and bottom. I just hover the tester over the bar to get a reading. I have gotten readings as low as 1.7ms on the top bar on the HDMI input. I don't have a HDMI to VGA converter, so I unfortunately cannot test the VGA input. I tested the DVI input with a HDMI to DVI cable, and the readings are going wild. The readings constantly shift. While on DVI the top bar will display a number anywhere from 1.6ms to 5ms as if it is constantly refreshing..


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:12 am 


User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2012
Posts: 436
Location: Finland
NWrain wrote:
The lag tester shows all three bars at the same time. One on top, middle, and bottom. I just hover the tester over the bar to get a reading. I have gotten readings as low as 1.7ms on the top bar on the HDMI input. I don't have a HDMI to VGA converter, so I unfortunately cannot test the VGA input. I tested the DVI input with a HDMI to DVI cable, and the readings are going wild. The readings constantly shift. While on DVI the top bar will display a number anywhere from 1.6ms to 5ms as if it is constantly refreshing..
Have you turned ECO mode off? I got pretty stable readings (+-0.2ms) from FS2333 with my lag tester attached to a single spot, using maximum panel brightness. I set the brightness threshold of my tester relatively high, which may explain the ~5ms difference in our results.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:41 am 



Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Posts: 242
Location: NTSC-US
ECO mode was off. I turned up brightness, contrast, black level to 100.

Leo Tester on HDMI input. Overdrive off. Measurement of top bar
Image

Leo Tester on DVI Input. Overdrive off. Measurement of top bar
Image

The bottom bar on both inputs still read 16.6-16.7ms. I also get faster readings with overdrive off.

I received .9 ms faster reading. I did this on my HDTV earlier in the thread, and I saw 1ms faster reading on full brightness compared to normal.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:34 am 


User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2012
Posts: 436
Location: Finland
NWrain wrote:
ECO mode was off. I turned up brightness, contrast, black level to 100.

Leo Tester on HDMI input. Overdrive off. Measurement of top bar
Image

Leo Tester on DVI Input. Overdrive off. Measurement of top bar
Image

The bottom bar on both inputs still read 16.6-16.7ms. I also get faster readings with overdrive off.

I received .9 ms faster reading. I did this on my HDTV earlier in the thread, and I saw 1ms faster reading on full brightness compared to normal.

Ok, good to hear that the readings stay constant now. I'd keep contrast and black level at default 50, since they are just for image pre-processing and not controlling the actual panel backlight. ~16ms is a valid value for the bottom bar, that would be close to the result which you'd get from a CRT too.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:18 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 287
Location: Birmingham, England
Is that the best monitor input lag wise? The FS2333?

Know of any 120hz monitors that are that good?

I found this website where the dude is testing screens with the same device http://www.displaylag.com/


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:14 am 



Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Posts: 242
Location: NTSC-US
It’s pretty complicated.

What is your budget? What size monitor are you interested in with what aspect ratio? What are you interested in doing with it? Do you have any preference for panel types such as IPS/PLS PVA/MVA TN film? Do you want 120hz just for PC games, or also for retro games? As far as I know all 120hz monitors use TN panels, which you may not like.

I can’t say I like the format of the reviews on that website. I am a fan of http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html. They do very in depth reviews, and the method they use for testing latency is very accurate. There are other websites out there, but I can’t name them off the top of my head.

Sorry to answer your question with questions, but I think people need to know more before giving any recommendations.


Last edited by NWrain on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:29 pm 



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 4
Ah, it seems to be unavailable again for now. No products to list.

Next, i'd like to see some interlaced and progressive analog outputs, so you can see how long video processors take to do their thing and how well displays handle converting analog inputs.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:34 am 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 287
Location: Birmingham, England
NWrain wrote:
It’s pretty complicated.

What is your budget? What size monitor are you interested in with what aspect ratio? What are you interested in doing with it? Do you have any preference for panel types such as IPS/PLS PVA/MVA TN film? Do you want 120hz just for PC games, or also for retro games? As far as I know all 120hz monitors use TN panels, which you may not like.

I can’t say I like the format of the reviews on that website. I am a fan of http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html. They do very in depth reviews, and the method they use for testing latency is very accurate. There are other websites out their, but I can’t name them off the top of my head.

Sorry to answer your question with questions, but I think people need to know more before giving any recommendations.


My budget is high, I want the best input lag wise. Iv currently got the Asus VG236H its 120hz and 3D with which feels like relatively low input lag, think I paid around £250-300 for it a while ago now.

The input I would like is just hdmi really, I can see myself getting a framemeister to connect retro things up. Speakers or ports for speakers/headphones would be nice but not essential.

It doesn't need to be 120hz as I want it purely for console gaming, I have Xbox 360 and PS3 which I think run at 60hz. Next generation consoles I can't see running at 120hz either, It would be great if they did as its so fluid but you need a really good card to get those frame rates.
I want lowest input lag 60hz wise.

Glossy or matte screen I don't mind. Although the gloss I'm used to now with it giving a sharper picture.

No bigger than 23inches as I like to play close up.

Now panel type I'm gonna have to research as I do t know much about it, send some links my way if you know of any.

Thanks alot, Vim

Edit: done a little reading and ideally would like an IPS panel with the low input lag if they exist! Oh and widescreen aspect ratio. When I put my monitor into game mode the colours are horrible that must be the TN panel you said I wouldn't like.

I can put up with a TN panel as its what a currently have, the way the game responds and feels is the most important thing to me.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:36 pm 



Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 1403
Ed Oscuro wrote:
And on that note I wonder if the pixel addressing hardware in the set has some kind of unusual quirk that causes significant differences in response in different sections. Doesn't make sense to me though.
The only thing that comes to mind along these lines is that some LCD controllers refresh diagonally, but I've only specifically heard of those being used in mobile devices.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:51 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 10508
Location: Germany
Quote:
My budget is high, I want the best input lag wise

is/was the Dell 2312. Matte display, 23" IPS, basically lag free.
Second to that is the Dell 2440, Glossy, 24" IPS, less than half a frame of lag.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:51 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 18067
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs
Here's a panel which looks rather enticing:

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/hazro_hz30wie.htm

4ms average lag tested, 30", 2560x1600. The main thing I'd be wondering about is scaling of 1080p material (if that becomes necessary i.e. with a Framemeister or direct connection) or analogue inputs (which is quite flexible and seems not horribly laggy on my Planar), and of course you will want a beefy video card to drive it, especially if you do PC native games.

These screens seem like a waste just to drive console gaming though. At least the Dell Fudoh mentioned drives a 1080p native panel. Still seems like overkill for console gaming, but I don't know what could be better than .6ms average (TFTCentral noted 10ms spikes occasionally, although that's still not very problematic - I think that's only 2/3 the average input lag of my display) input lag.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:05 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 10508
Location: Germany
Problem with the latest Hazros is that they have no menu whatsoever and are designed for usage on the PC only.

Quote:
At least the Dell Fudoh mentioned drives a 1080p native panel. Still seems like overkill for console gaming

but at least the 23/24" Dells are rather affordable given that they use IPS panels. I would never use a TN panel instead just for saving 50 $/GBP/EUR.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:10 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 18067
Location: uoıʇɐɹnƃıɟuoɔ ɯǝʇsʎs
Indeed! I looked at the pricing on the Dell and it's around the $250 mark - very good in my opinion. I wouldn't buy one as a primary PC monitor (because of the skimpy vertical real estate of 1080p, and a 23" 16:9 at that) but I find myself tempted to get one to replace the composite TV connection I've been using for the 360...not affordable for me at the moment but maybe I should shift some hardware to make room for one!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:45 am 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 287
Location: Birmingham, England
Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
My budget is high, I want the best input lag wise

is/was the Dell 2312. Matte display, 23" IPS, basically lag free.
Second to that is the Dell 2440, Glossy, 24" IPS, less than half a frame of lag.


Im getting mixed reviews about the S2440L being a IPS panel and a VA panel, which one is it?
The FS2223 comes to around £300.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:34 am 



Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Posts: 242
Location: NTSC-US
I took a quick look. Some reviews say that it has a AMVA panel, and others advertise it as IPS. I wonder if it is a panel lottery monitor?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:14 am 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 10508
Location: Germany
you're right, it's a VA panel, but that's even better than a IPS one. Everything's better than a TN panel. The 27" version of the Dell (only a little more expensive) does use a IPS one though.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:02 am 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 287
Location: Birmingham, England
Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Any chance we could test to see how much the Framemeister lags in its different modes?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:42 am 



Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Posts: 242
Location: NTSC-US
I tried the lag tester on the XRGB-Mini a while back. I used the HDMI port on the Framemeister and had the input and output at 1080P.

Lag tester direct to monitor:
Top Bar: 1.3 ms
Bottom Bar: 16.6 ms

Lag tester through XRGB Mini using HDMI Port (This is going off of memory)
Top Bar Approximately 17.X ms
Bottom Bar Approximately 33 ms

I thought that the HDMI ports on the Framemeister were supposed to be pass through ports.

I unfortunately have no way of testing the RGB or Component input of the Framemeister.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:50 am 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 287
Location: Birmingham, England
Wow a frame atleast, didn't think it was going to be that bad. I was expecting that for the processing mode, not the quicker mode.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:05 am 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 10508
Location: Germany
there have been reports about a few measurements in the Mini thread already. 1 to 1.5 frames seems valid. My results on the RGB input all range in the 23-24ms area. Doesn't matter which processing mode. Micomsoft announced less processing on the HDMI ports with the next update. This might reduce the lag on the HDMI ports as well.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:48 am 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2011
Posts: 287
Location: Birmingham, England
Thanks, good to know. Ill keep an eye on the mini thread.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:33 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2012
Posts: 436
Location: Finland
Fudoh wrote:
there have been reports about a few measurements in the Mini thread already. 1 to 1.5 frames seems valid. My results on the RGB input all range in the 23-24ms area. Doesn't matter which processing mode. Micomsoft announced less processing on the HDMI ports with the next update. This might reduce the lag on the HDMI ports as well.
I hope they'd fix the internal lag display with the same update. Now the number seems to be 1 frame (2 with interlaced content) ahead of reality. Wouldn't look that good anymore, but better to be honest...


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 540
Today I tested Optoma GT750 projector (supposed to have low input lag). Input lag is 33ms, the same as my previous projector. Picture quality was inferior too...
So I will return it and be back to a tv ... Another quest is starting !
_________________
XRGB & OSSC Wiki


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now !
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:29 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 540
for those interested, there is an online database of HDTV/Monitor (all tested with Leo Tester) : http://www.displaylag.com/display-database

I'm surprised about Plasma input lag ! I heard that PANASONIC ST50 *WAS/IS* 16 ms but it is not :o .

We should to do something similar for our scalers ...
_________________
XRGB & OSSC Wiki


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 200 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: doonut, nissling, paulb_nl and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group