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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:50 am 


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Joined: 08 Mar 2015
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Location: Québec City
Just got my 1CHIP Super Famicom

Jesus Christ that console looks beautiful through RGB.
The NEC might not have razor sharp scanlines and blanked lines, but it has rich and balanced colours and the SFC looks insane on it. I have a hard time satying focused when playing SF2T cause I keep marveling at the picture

Count me out for modding this one (adding a THS7374) : the signal looks pristine as it is. a mod wouldn't be worth the hassle for me.

Also I don't see any vertical bar on the NEC ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I only have SF2T at the moment though, and there are not a lot of black screens in that game(there are between fights, but they last 2 seconds or so). Maybe when I get FF6 again I'll get to spot the vertical bar. but it must be pretty faint, since I can't see it right now


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:43 am 


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that's fantastic news FinalBaton! glad it worked out. so it's a Super Famicom? (the Japanese system?) (did it come with the original power supply?)

I was just playing Super Street fighter 2 Turbo, lol

here's some pictures I took (SNES-02) (PVM20L5)

I haven't seen the vertical bar on any of my systems either (think I might've seen a faint glimpse of it during the intro of super Castlelvania 4)


[album link: https://imgur.com/a/hyrjF]


Spoiler: show
Image


Spoiler: show
Image


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:42 am 


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Location: Québec City
@Blair Yes it came with an original power supply.

I'll try to take some pics. I only have my phone as a camera though, so it's not gonna do it justice


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:10 am 


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Joined: 10 Dec 2015
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Location: Cleveland, OH
Both of my SNES consoles have the vertical bar, my 1-chip system is less noticeable but it's still there. It really stands out on the title screen for Final Fantasy 3...but otherwise isn't really an issue.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:35 pm 


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Joined: 23 Feb 2013
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Location: Boston, MA, USA
Same for me as above... more jailbars rather than the centered vertical bars though. It literally only shows up, faintly, in a few games I've noticed, along with the FFIII intro as many have stated. It's interesting though that many other completely black screen have no signs of it whatsoever. I'm going to add the amp anyway and I'll post the results after.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:31 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 920
I cant see the stripe on my 1-chip-03.

the only console i have that i can see it on is an APU.

and i only really notice it on final fantasy 3.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:43 pm 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 312
my PAL 1-CHIP-01 shows the vertical bar quite noticably in the background of Crateria on Super Metroid


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:49 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 335
I've now had a few people tell me the 3-capacitor trick worked for them: http://www.retrorgb.com/images/SNESVert ... lVtFix.jpg

It's a totally reversible mod, so I suggest giving it a try. Also, replaceing the DC-DC converter might help as well (scroll down): http://www.retrorgb.com/snestips.html

Let me know if it works for you guys. I haven't run across a white-line console in awhile, so I haven't had the chance to test these fixes.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:16 am 


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Location: America
FinalBaton wrote:
@Blair Yes it came with an original power supply.

I'll try to take some pics. I only have my phone as a camera though, so it's not gonna do it justice


oh that's okay, I'm just using my cheesy little android phone for taking pictures as well.

the thing that gives you the best quality for taking CRT photos is manual focus adjustment, (that's how I get such nice scanline pictures, at least I think they look nice).

and lowering the ISO, you want to get the room dark as possible and then turn your ISO down to 200 to 400 depending on how bright your screen is ( that eliminates excess grain).

if you want your colors to look right you probably have to adjust the white balance (for most PVM's I've found that setting it to sunny or florescent helps, but the auto white balance feature might work just as well).


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:50 pm 


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Posts: 675
retrorgb wrote:
I've now had a few people tell me the 3-capacitor trick worked for them: http://www.retrorgb.com/images/SNESVert ... lVtFix.jpg

It's a totally reversible mod, so I suggest giving it a try. Also, replaceing the DC-DC converter might help as well (scroll down): http://www.retrorgb.com/snestips.html

Let me know if it works for you guys. I haven't run across a white-line console in awhile, so I haven't had the chance to test these fixes.


I wouldn't recommend that DC-DC converter, you're just going to introduce switching noise into the 5V rail because it's a SMPS.

The capacitor trick has been known to work because it's been believed the vertical bar is caused by the power drop during the DRAM refresh. Having that capacitor on the 5V rail and regulator gives it a nice reserve so it never droops. Putting two on the video encoder is completely unnecessary. a 470uF or 1000uF (some systems have 2 vertical bars) on the 5V regulator is sufficient


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:40 pm 


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Location: Québec City
Blair wrote:
oh that's okay, I'm just using my cheesy little android phone for taking pictures as well.

the thing that gives you the best quality for taking CRT photos is manual focus adjustment, (that's how I get such nice scanline pictures, at least I think they look nice).

and lowering the ISO, you want to get the room dark as possible and then turn your ISO down to 200 to 400 depending on how bright your screen is ( that eliminates excess grain).

if you want your colors to look right you probably have to adjust the white balance (for most PVM's I've found that setting it to sunny or florescent helps, but the auto white balance feature might work just as well).

Yeah, I take my CRT pics with the lights off as well. And with low iso too (200 iso is what I rock with)

I don't have a manual focus on my phone though. Only 2 options : macro or normal.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:17 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 335
Pasky wrote:
I wouldn't recommend that DC-DC converter, you're just going to introduce switching noise into the 5V rail because it's a SMPS.

Have you seen this happen with that style DC-DC converter? I've been using one for awhile and have not noticed any issues. I usually have a good eye for noise...but I realize that's a subjective statement; I never verified with a scope or anything. Was just curious if anyone else had issues.

Pasky wrote:
The capacitor trick has been known to work because it's been believed the vertical bar is caused by the power drop during the DRAM refresh. Having that capacitor on the 5V rail and regulator gives it a nice reserve so it never droops. Putting two on the video encoder is completely unnecessary. a 470uF or 1000uF (some systems have 2 vertical bars) on the 5V regulator is sufficient

I have not been able to test this myself, as the last handful of Mini's / 1CHIP's I've seen don't have any hint of a white line at all. That being said, I've had people email to tell me they needed all three caps for the line to completely disappear. I have no way to verify this at all though, I'm only relaying the information. It would be awesome if anyone here can test the issue on their SNES and see what kind of results they get.

I'm also curious if there's any possibility that adding the caps can cause adverse effects. Doubt it, but I'm not an EE.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:24 pm 


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retrorgb wrote:
Pasky wrote:
I wouldn't recommend that DC-DC converter, you're just going to introduce switching noise into the 5V rail because it's a SMPS.

Have you seen this happen with that style DC-DC converter? I've been using one for awhile and have not noticed any issues. I usually have a good eye for noise...but I realize that's a subjective statement; I never verified with a scope or anything. Was just curious if anyone else had issues.

Pasky wrote:
The capacitor trick has been known to work because it's been believed the vertical bar is caused by the power drop during the DRAM refresh. Having that capacitor on the 5V rail and regulator gives it a nice reserve so it never droops. Putting two on the video encoder is completely unnecessary. a 470uF or 1000uF (some systems have 2 vertical bars) on the 5V regulator is sufficient

I have not been able to test this myself, as the last handful of Mini's / 1CHIP's I've seen don't have any hint of a white line at all. That being said, I've had people email to tell me they needed all three caps for the line to completely disappear. I have no way to verify this at all though, I'm only relaying the information. It would be awesome if anyone here can test the issue on their SNES and see what kind of results they get.

I'm also curious if there's any possibility that adding the caps can cause adverse effects. Doubt it, but I'm not an EE.


A CRT won't show the noise as obvious as a LCD. I haven't used one in a SNES but I have in a NES and the switching noise was pretty apparent.

If they're saying they need the additional capacitors to make it go away then it's obviously they needed a higher capacitance capacitor not more of them, they're just putting them in parallel. Putting more bypass caps on the encoder itself does nothing, it's the 5V rail that's important as the line doesn't come from the encoder, it comes from the DRAM refresh...


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:47 pm 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 312
retrorgb wrote:
It would be awesome if anyone here can test the issue on their SNES and see what kind of results they get.

I'm also curious if there's any possibility that adding the caps can cause adverse effects. Doubt it, but I'm not an EE.

My 1-CHIP-01 has pretty noticable vertical bars. I see them on Super Metroid. So I'll put capacitor on the voltage regulator sometime over the weekend and report back how it turns out.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:47 am 


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Posts: 441
Location: America
vertical bars?

you mean you have more than one?


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:59 am 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 312
Blair wrote:
vertical bars?

you mean you have more than one?

yeah, there's like a light bar and a darker bar right next to each other in the middle of the screen

you can clearly see it here:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:22 am 


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Joined: 01 Sep 2015
Posts: 248
Location: New York
AndehX wrote:
Blair wrote:
vertical bars?

you mean you have more than one?

yeah, there's like a light bar and a darker bar right next to each other in the middle of the screen

you can clearly see it here:

Image


Doing retrorgb's/bortis amp mod got rid of mine on my 1-chip-03

http://retrorgb.com/1chiprgb.html

I'm still trying to figure out the weird horizontal lines I'm getting on a white text/black background (and other weird lines) on my Genesis but that's another thread...


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:15 am 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 312
tjstogy wrote:

Doing retrorgb's/bortis amp mod got rid of mine on my 1-chip-03

http://retrorgb.com/1chiprgb.html


Yeah, im gonna try adding a 470uf capacitor to the voltage regulator first, and if that doesn't work, then i'll do the RGB amp mod.

Oh and a bit off-topic, but I just finished painting my SNES yesterday (it was ugly and yellow)

Image


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:39 am 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 335
Pasky wrote:
A CRT won't show the noise as obvious as a LCD. I haven't used one in a SNES but I have in a NES and the switching noise was pretty apparent.

I checked with a capture card directly, upscaler through a capture card, CRT and LCD. Maybe I just don't know what to look for? Is this something we can get a picture of?

Pasky wrote:
If they're saying they need the additional capacitors to make it go away then it's obviously they needed a higher capacitance capacitor not more of them, they're just putting them in parallel. Putting more bypass caps on the encoder itself does nothing, it's the 5V rail that's important as the line doesn't come from the encoder, it comes from the DRAM refresh...

Good info, thank you.

AndehX wrote:
My 1-CHIP-01 has pretty noticable vertical bars. I see them on Super Metroid. So I'll put capacitor on the voltage regulator sometime over the weekend and report back how it turns out.

Thank you!

tjstogy wrote:
Doing retrorgb's/bortis amp mod got rid of mine on my 1-chip-03

I've personally witnessed this myself a bunch of times. That, combined with the fact that it's an easier mod (then the 3-wire), is why I recommended people use the THS7314 solution on the SNES Mini. After seeing the difference in chip sharpness (with the filter off) I'll now recommend the THS7374 solution, as soon as one is available (I believe one's about a month away). That being said, finding a "proper" solution for the vertical line, such as the cap trick would be awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:53 am 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 312
Ok, just added a 470uf capacitor to the 7805 and I can confirm it has completely fixed the vertical bar. Excuse my reflection

Image


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:45 pm 


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Location: Cleveland, OH
AndehX wrote:
Ok, just added a 470uf capacitor to the 7805 and I can confirm it has completely fixed the vertical bar. Excuse my reflection

Image


Excellent!!! I'm going to give it a shot with mine as well, as it looks pretty much exactly like your "before" picture


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:49 pm 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 312
I have to thank Pasky though, as he suggested that only the 1 capacitor was needed on the 7805, which he was right about.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:30 pm 


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retrorgb wrote:
I checked with a capture card directly, upscaler through a capture card, CRT and LCD. Maybe I just don't know what to look for? Is this something we can get a picture of?


Switching noise will usually look like a diagonal wave going in one direction over the video signal, and then going back to the other direction and repeating. If it's not visible it may be fine, but I wouldn't expect that on every SNES revision. I certainly noticed it on my NES top loader when I tried a switching 7805 replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:01 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 335
Pasky wrote:
Switching noise will usually look like a diagonal wave going in one direction over the video signal, and then going back to the other direction and repeating. If it's not visible it may be fine, but I wouldn't expect that on every SNES revision. I certainly noticed it on my NES top loader when I tried a switching 7805 replacement.

I'll definitely look for that. I've actually seen what you describe (through a capture card) on non-modded SNES', but didn't have the opportunity to work on them.

AndehX wrote:
Ok, just added a 470uf capacitor to the 7805 and I can confirm it has completely fixed the vertical bar.

Awesome, I'll try that the next time I find a vertical line SNES.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:02 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 334
RGB32E wrote:
retrorgb wrote:
Okay, I turned the filter off by connecting pin 9 to 5v rather then ground (page 7, thanks to db Elec for the tip): http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ths7374.pdf


Very cool! I recall seeing the LPF pin when I installed a THS7374 in a mini 3+ years ago, but never tried bypassing the LPF!

Looks like Micomsoft left provisions for bypassing the LPF in their application of the THS7374 in the XSYNC-1, but decided to enable it. I had wondered if the switch on the underside of the XSYNC-1 was a toggle for this, but have confirmed it isn't wired for that function.

Image Image
R40 connects THS7374 pin 9 to ground via a 4.7k ohm resistor. R42 is left unpopulated - LHS is 5VDC, RHS is pin 9. Remove R40 and jumper (or use a resistor) R42 to bypass the LPF!

This brings up an interesting point though - The THS7314 used in many projects has an undefeatable LPF. Perhaps people can get a slight improvement in sharpness from your THS7314 circuits if you updated them for use with the THS7374!


Is there another device similar to the XSYNC-1 that will take JP-21 and convert to HD-15 but not apply a LPF?


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:29 pm 


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Seraphic wrote:
Is there another device similar to the XSYNC-1 that will take JP-21 and convert to HD-15 but not apply a LPF?

It's an easy mod to disable the LPF on the XSYNC-1 - remove R40, jumper or add a resistor to R42. One could even add a switch to enable/disable the LPF!


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:46 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 334
RGB32E wrote:
Seraphic wrote:
Is there another device similar to the XSYNC-1 that will take JP-21 and convert to HD-15 but not apply a LPF?

It's an easy mod to disable the LPF on the XSYNC-1 - remove R40, jumper or add a resistor to R42. One could even add a switch to enable/disable the LPF!


That is good to know. But sounds like it requires a solder kit and some experience.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:44 pm 



Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 920
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Nintendo- ... true&rt=nc


What a deal this guy got. i dont see this often anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:06 am 


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Assuming that it can be cleaned, and that whatever problem with it can be easily fixed, sure...


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 Post subject: Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:25 am 


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If you're going to use a switching regulator, put an adequate inductor on there to take the edge off.
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