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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:06 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2016
Posts: 162
philexile wrote:
LDigital wrote:
Not yet but I will soon. I doubt that will affect the geometry anyhow


You have to recap both boards to have a chance of fixing your geometry issue.

Do you know the history of your display? For instance: are you sure that the deflection module and video board were the originals that came installed with it from the factory – or that other parts were replaced? A factory reset doesn't take those factors into account.

Basically, you can't just do a factory reset after a recap and expect it resolve your problem 100%. You'll have to do a proper calibration to get it to where you want it to be. That involves having the right tools for the job and a signal generator. If that is beyond your skillset and you demand excellence, then you'll need to take it to a service tech.


With all due respect I know how to calibrate bvm geometry and the issue I have with 240p is not correctable with the given maintenance menu adjustments and didn't resolve with the deflection board recap. Like I said the 480p image is pristine and that didn't happen by accident. I will recap the video board in the next few days and report back if it makes a difference but I am doubtful of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:16 pm 



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 348
Great, so you know that each signal format needs to be calibrated separately. Do you have access to the service manual for the D20?

You should recap the Video board before getting discouraged.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:17 pm 



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 17
I already have a 20L5 but I can purchase a BVM 20F1U locally with only 11,000 hours for $750. If all I play are 8,16 and 32 bit on them would it be worth picking up? I've already had an offer on my 20L5 for $950 (but i may keep it,dunno) I'm just wondering if the BVM has better pq.


Last edited by bodine1231 on Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:45 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2016
Posts: 162
Keep the L5 multi sync is awesome


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:33 pm 


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Posts: 283
Location: Australia
If you have the money then keep both. I that BVM and a 20L5 and I think 240p and 480i look slightly better on the BVM while 20L5 does 480p.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:16 pm 


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Do people not find a 20" screen too small for 480p?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:27 pm 


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Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 1950
Location: Québec City
andykara2003 wrote:
Do people not find a 20" screen too small for 480p?

In a desktop scenario it's perfestly fine. Hell, people have been gaming on VGA and SVGA crt monitors and beyond for many decades for MS-DOS and PC gaming.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:31 pm 


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I have a 14" 480p monitor and it was pretty cool playing Soul Calibur 3 on. You just gotta sit closer.

720p on it however was practically unplayable.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:42 pm 


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Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 254
Location: Italy
@bodine1231: you won't be able to appreciate the difference between 800 and 900 lines of resolution with SD games. I'd hold onto the multisync 20l5, unless you have some reason to think it's noticeably past its prime.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:48 pm 


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Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 124
Location: The Netherlands
MKL wrote:
Magicalbottle wrote:
It does say trinitron video monitor though.


Because it's a monitor and not a TV so it will not have a tuner. And if it were a TV it would be a KV- not a KX-. It has a TV chassis though, the AE1 which was used in the period 1987-90. Interestingly none of the AE1 TVs had a 29" tube (max size back then was 27") so it should be from 1990 or 1991 when Sony switched to 29". Personally, of all Sony TVs the AE1 models have the picture I like the most but I would recommend a set like this only to someone who can service it.


Thanks for the info.

The guy wants 70 eur for it. I'll see how 240p test suite runs, but I doubt it can match my pvm 2950. I know someone who can service pvm's, but it is very costly of course. Still pretty interesting machine. I'll report back in a few weeks once i've seen it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:12 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
In a desktop scenario it's perfestly fine.

Of course, I didn't consider a desktop scenario. I'd be really interested in trying that myself actually - I just don't have room for any more CRTs!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:12 am 



Joined: 18 May 2017
Posts: 27
Location: Montpellier, FRANCE
pick up today a 20m2 and a d20f1, but with neogeo aes have this issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Pa6U2 ... e=youtu.be

tested first with 240p test suite without problem on dreamcast.

channel 1 is set with slot 6, rgb, ext sync, vcr on or off is the same.
tested directly the cable to monitor and still same.
tested also with other card still same problem
Dont know what is wrong :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:14 am 



Joined: 12 May 2013
Posts: 394
andykara2003 wrote:
Do people not find a 20" screen too small for 480p?

Depends on viewing distance and number of viewers for me. It certainly doesn't bother me playing by myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:42 am 



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 17
Xer Xian wrote:
@bodine1231: you won't be able to appreciate the difference between 800 and 900 lines of resolution with SD games. I'd hold onto the multisync 20l5, unless you have some reason to think it's noticeably past its prime.


Ok thanks. I'll just stick with the 20L5 then.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:55 am 


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Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 124
Location: The Netherlands
lewolfeur wrote:
pick up today a 20m2 and a d20f1, but with neogeo aes have this issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Pa6U2 ... e=youtu.be

tested first with 240p test suite without problem on dreamcast.

channel 1 is set with slot 6, rgb, ext sync, vcr on or off is the same.
tested directly the cable to monitor and still same.
tested also with other card still same problem
Dont know what is wrong :roll:


I have the exact same problem wth my aes and pvm 2950. Other consoles work fine, the aes has been modded for rgb and stereo. try using a sync stripper.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:37 am 



Joined: 18 May 2017
Posts: 27
Location: Montpellier, FRANCE
cant test with a sync stripper for the moment. but its weird there someone have a msv and work normally ( aes and mvs hardware are the same if a not mistake)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcgcSjB4zXA

Also someone who have already a d20 can confirm if in there option this is set to 1 or 0 ?
in set up>extent menu>maintenance>e board> page 2 there is 15k vcr and its set to 0.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:38 pm 


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Posts: 39
What is the best option to turn Megaman 9/10 on the wii from 480i to 240p?

1)Emotia only
2)Extron RGB interface only
3)RGB with Emotia or VSC (not sure if VSC accept 480i as input)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:57 pm 


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Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Posts: 1836
Location: Kentucky
jhonny_d wrote:
What is the best option to turn Megaman 9/10 on the wii from 480i to 240p?

1)Emotia only
2)Extron RGB interface only
3)RGB with Emotia or VSC (not sure if VSC accept 480i as input)


Can't help with your specific question, but if you're looking to buy hardware solely for those two games, I want to point out that you can force 480p for them, and they're both now available in Mega Man Legacy Collection 2 on PS4 and PC for $20, which came out today.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:12 pm 


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How can I force them to 480p?

I would like to get the hardware also as a mean to reduce 480i flicker (mostly ps2)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:30 pm 


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Posts: 1836
Location: Kentucky
jhonny_d wrote:
How can I force them to 480p?

I would like to get the hardware also as a mean to reduce 480i flicker (mostly ps2)


I was looking for an old thread we had on here about it but couldn't find it. It was just using a specific loader homebrew that would work with it. If you have homebrew installed already it's easy enough to try a couple and see which one it is, sorry I don't remember which one it is.

And yeah, if you have other uses, by all means go with some hardware. Just wanted to make sure you weren't dropping a bunch of money for two whole games.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:28 pm 


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Posts: 1950
Location: Québec City
jhonny_d wrote:
What is the best option to turn Megaman 9/10 on the wii from 480i to 240p?

1)Emotia only
2)Extron RGB interface only
3)RGB with Emotia or VSC (not sure if VSC accept 480i as input)

An Extron RGB interface (only) is all I need to get very convincing 240p out of the PS2's 480i titles in my setup(I need to emphasize ths because certain people on here have reported that this trick doesn't work for them. So to be extra safe I now disclose this, just in case...).

But sadly I have never tested this method on a Wii :( So therefore I can't guarantee you that it will work.

My interface is a 580xi

Here's the normal PS2 480i picture :
Image

And here's with the 580xi activated :
Image

As you cansee, it works great in my setup


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:20 am 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
Posts: 99
I'm one of those people that it didn't work for. :) I tried with just the RGB 201 and I found the results "ok" - I had to enable ADSP and adjust the position. It worked but required manual tuning. I also tried with the RGB+VSC, but I found the VSC's conversion to 480i unacceptable.

My downscaler of choice is currently the Genius II. One notable benefit of that device over the Super Emotia is that it can permanently reside in your chain - it handles 240p/480i/480p without fuss. The Emotia does a comparable job for 480p downscaling but can't handle 240p/480i, so you may need to switch between signals depending on what system you're using (like say the PS2).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:27 am 


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Posts: 39
bobrocks95 wrote:
jhonny_d wrote:
How can I force them to 480p?

I would like to get the hardware also as a mean to reduce 480i flicker (mostly ps2)


I was looking for an old thread we had on here about it but couldn't find it. It was just using a specific loader homebrew that would work with it. If you have homebrew installed already it's easy enough to try a couple and see which one it is, sorry I don't remember which one it is.

And yeah, if you have other uses, by all means go with some hardware. Just wanted to make sure you weren't dropping a bunch of money for two whole games.


This is probably the post you're talking about viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51976

Thank you all for the suggestions, about MM 9/10 I think I'll go with the 480p hack coupled with a scanline generator

The mimo II looks great but I don't really need a downscaler, I mostly need some progressive scan solution for MM 9/10 and something that will improve 480i titles

I would like to to know if a VSC+RGB combo will help to reduce flicker and improve image quality of 480i native titles that do not require downscaling

edit: I may buy the RGB unit recommended by FinalBaton anyway since it's really cheap


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:33 pm 



Joined: 03 Dec 2016
Posts: 21
I have an opportunity to pick up a 20F1U for $675 locally. Only around 20,000 hours on it. I'm going to be looking at it tomorrow. This is my first time looking at a bvm over a pvm. Is this a decent price? Anything specially I should look for/know ahead of time when inspecting it?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:50 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 182
Nintendude94 wrote:
I have an opportunity to pick up a 20F1U for $675 locally. Only around 20,000 hours on it. I'm going to be looking at it tomorrow. This is my first time looking at a bvm over a pvm. Is this a decent price? Anything specially I should look for/know ahead of time when inspecting it?


Do you have 240p test suite on a flash cart for SNES or something you can bring?? Comes in REALLY handy if you do...

If not, punch in channels 94-99 (think that's the range) for some test grids and gray ramps - nothing in color though (which is where 240p test suite comes in handy). I would just look around for convergence issues and things like that. Make sure to let it run for like 15+ minutes as well - and see if you can get it from a cold start (i.e. you don't want him letting it warm up beforehand which can hide any potential issues which go away after it's warmed up – you can feel the back fins and see if it was recently turned on because they'll still be warm for a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:55 pm 



Joined: 19 Oct 2013
Posts: 233
Nintendude94 wrote:
I have an opportunity to pick up a 20F1U for $675 locally. Only around 20,000 hours on it. I'm going to be looking at it tomorrow. This is my first time looking at a bvm over a pvm. Is this a decent price? Anything specially I should look for/know ahead of time when inspecting it?


To piggyback on what Dochartaigh said, unlike some PVM models, this has convergence adjustments, which makes it more difficult to determine between "is this poorly setup" or "is there an actual issue".

As for price, completely depends on where you live, and condition.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:19 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 182
DejahThoris wrote:

To piggyback on what Dochartaigh said, unlike some PVM models, this has convergence adjustments, which makes it more difficult to determine between "is this poorly setup" or "is there an actual issue".


That's a good point. I would go into that maintenance menu and see if the settings are around the default numbers - that in theory (I think - I've honestly never needed to mess with this on my BVM's) should tell you if it's getting out of wack if it had to be adjusted that far off the default values.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:27 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2016
Posts: 162
You have no way of knowing what the from factory values were though.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:21 pm 


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Posts: 475
strygo wrote:
I'm one of those people that it didn't work for. :) I tried with just the RGB 201 and I found the results "ok" - I had to enable ADSP and adjust the position. It worked but required manual tuning. I also tried with the RGB+VSC, but I found the VSC's conversion to 480i unacceptable.

My downscaler of choice is currently the Genius II. One notable benefit of that device over the Super Emotia is that it can permanently reside in your chain - it handles 240p/480i/480p without fuss. The Emotia does a comparable job for 480p downscaling but can't handle 240p/480i, so you may need to switch between signals depending on what system you're using (like say the PS2).


How much lag does the Genius II add when deinterlacing? How does the 240p output from 480i look? How is the brightness of the output from 480i sources?
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:13 am 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
Posts: 99
orange808 wrote:
How much lag does the Genius II add when deinterlacing? How does the 240p output from 480i look? How is the brightness of the output from 480i sources?


I'm not an expert on lag, but I haven't perceived any. As for 480i, I can't stand it personally, so the 240p looks much better to me. I haven't done extensive play-testing, but for the 2D games I've tested, I much prefer the 240p. Nothing brightness-related stood out to me either.

I've currently got both signals wired up through an Rxi 203, so I can easily choose between them.

I have 2 devices I haven't had time to test: an iScan HD+ and the device you recommended.


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