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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:21 pm 


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Location: Québec City
Blair wrote:
Nice shots FinalBaton! What version of splatter house is that?

Thanks! This is Splatterhouse 2 on the Genesis (amazing game, it's a must try if you like action sidescrollers)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:47 am 



Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 322
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
A fellow of mine got his first baby... Oh I'm sorry! BVM, earlier this week. ;) A BVM-20F1E that I got to take a look at and show him how it works. It was sold as untested but turned out to work very well. Nissling certified! :)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2ff6 ... l9vb2VSTFE
Circa 24 000 hours, which is a bit but from what I can see it's nothing critical. Funny thing is that he had never seen a reference CRT before and from my experience, getting a BVM from the start with no idea of what it's capable of may be risky. Many people are more used to what you may see on an old Philips or B&O set. Either way he was very pleased.


Last edited by nissling on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:42 am 



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Posts: 310
nissling wrote:
A fellow of mine god his first baby... Oh I'm sorry! BVM, earlier this week. ;) A BVM-20F1E that I got to take a look at and show him how it works. It was sold as untested but turned out to work very well. Nissling certified! :)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2ff6 ... l9vb2VSTFE
Circa 24 000 hours, which is a bit but from what I can see it's nothing critical. Funny thing is that he had never seen a reference CRT before and from my experience, getting a BVM from the start with no idea of what it's capable of may be risky. Many people are more used to what you may see on an old Philips or B&O set. Either way he was very pleased.

For an untested set, that looks immaculate! I wouldn't necessarily let the hours on it worry you though. My 20G1E is basically the same set (has 800TVL vs 900TVL on the 20F1E) and over 40,000 hours, and it looks just as good in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:53 pm 



Joined: 10 May 2015
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
After 30.000 hours, Sony would actually replace the tube with no cost, meaning that a set that have been on for 35.000 hours may have a tube that's only been used for 5000 hours or even less. However I do agree with you that the amount of hours doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the set.

While the picture is very fine, the monitor itself was kind of dirty and had several marks. Nothing on the actual screen (that was serious at least) though but you could clearly see that it had been through some adventures and probably not been used for the past few years. H/V size and position also needed some adjustments but that's to be expected. Geometry and convergence however was actually very stable.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:32 pm 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 310
Actually, this reminds me. I have an odd issue with my BVM. The linearity seems to be warped in a certain part of the screen. Here is an extremely exaggerated example of what I mean:

Image

Now obviously mine isnt anywhere near that bad, it's hardly noticable on stil images, but when im playing a game that scrolls, like Link to the Past for example, you can quite easily notice the warping of the image in that area of the screen.

Is that fixable? and if so how?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:06 pm 


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AndehX wrote:
Is that fixable? and if so how?

That's a horizontal linearity problem (for which there's a nice test with Sonic assets on Artemio's 240p suite :) ), I googled "horizontal linearity sony bvm" and apparently the relevant setting is on the ALIGNMENT menu 2/4 (link).

Btw, I wanted to thank you and everyone who pointed me in the right direction with the Sync select setting on the DT-V1710, switching it to 'Ext' effectively solved the issue :) (the input card was of course fine, I didn't get an image on the TM-H150 since the DC only outputs 480p with my custom vga cable). So thanks to the OSSC and a Gefen DVI-VGA converter (which surprisingly supported 240p/480i as well) I was already able to bask in all this monitor's glory without having to wait for the scart to bnc breakout ^_^ I didn't have much time to test so I didn't take pictures (and I'm also pretty bad at it), but I'll post something here sometime, I'm looking forward to take some comparison pics with line-doubled 240p on a PC CRT monitor, RGB vs S-video (easily done on the TM-H150, not really on the DT-V1710 since I don't have the video/s-video input card..) and maybe something not gaming-related like feeding the monitor with a 1080psF signal and see if it's worth the hassle (probably not) :)

Sgt.Wafer wrote:
I bought mine NOS (000 hours) and it didn't come with anything on the panel. It was manufactured on March 2008. Maybe it was installed by the previous owner?

I don't know, the guy did tell me he used to take very good care of it (and it shows), but I hope he didn't go as far as making custom protective sleeves :lol: (here's a link if you want to see it)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:54 pm 


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Great hearing that your problem got resolved.

Since their seams to be a good number of people who own this monitor or equivalent models browsing this thread currently. here is some information regarding a known problem that they have. maybe someone that knows Japanese or have the required technical knowledge can chime in.

Sgt.Wafer wrote:
werk91 wrote:
I suppose that's quite a lot of time indeed. It's reassuring to know as I plan to take care of it.

I tried to capture the Extron skewed image below. I'm using a Sync on luma PS2 cable on 60hz console. Is this normal behaviour?
Spoiler: show
Image

I have the 17" version of the same monitor and get this same issue only with my S-Video modded Atari 7800 and only when playing 7800 games not VCS games (Please see the picture)
Spoiler: show
Image


I found a Japanese blog that has information regarding these issues and what seems like possible fixes for them but I don't understand Japanese. Here have a look (There are multiple posts across several pages).

http://poorcore.blog.fc2.com/page-4.html


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:17 pm 


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Would be extremely beneficial to resolve the skew issue with the Extron. Now that I've thrown two more consoles in the mix I found myself adjusting h position more. Extron makes it easier with the front dial and is much quicker.

Since the Dreamcast got mentioned was wondering of someone could help with getting 480p from it into the component input of the DT-V/1719. Does RGBHV to YpBpR require a transcoder or a passive adapter would work too?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:06 pm 


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Sgt.Wafer wrote:
Since their seams to be a good number of people who own this monitor or equivalent models browsing this thread currently. here is some information regarding a known problem that they have. maybe someone that knows Japanese or have the required technical knowledge can chime in.

Hmm, that looks very similar to the upper skew issue that's been documented for the BVM A series monitor. Bob from retroRGB uploaded a few videos of him trying to address this problem, iirc he found some solution (don't remember how feasible/practical). Anyway I can't say I've noticed any of this with the couple of consoles I've tested it with (maybe because I went consoles->OSSC->DAC->monitor?). With what consoles did you encounter this problem on the DT-V1x?

werk91 wrote:
Does RGBHV to YpBpR require a transcoder or a passive adapter would work too?

Yes you'd need a dedicated transcoder for that (or, well, a video processor with analog out). The guys behind HDRetrovision are currently working on a DC Component cable that will handle all the resolutions the DC can output. It's still early in the development phase though.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:15 pm 


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Cool to hear about the potential Dreamcast cable. As long as the cost is reasonable that would be a very nice option for people that don't want to transcode, put it into an upscaler or have a VGA CRT. I have VGA CRT monitors but I understand people not wanting to keep those around.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:53 pm 


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On a related note, there is some potential good news for owners of JVC DT-V or related monitors especially those looking for an RGB/Component card. Someone claims to have successfully replicated it.
See below for more information.

Anonymous wrote:
Great news ! The IDC DC3 50PL connector fits into the slot. No need to order or scavenge one of those Hirose PCN10A
Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


Image

I was lucky to found a monitor with that card.
Only recently I peeked inside and to my surprise, not only it has bog standard components, but about 90% of them are useless, some components are missing at critical places.
The card only does some input protection, buffering and leveling.


Here is the source if anyone want to check it for themselves: https://warosu.org/vr/thread/S4093218#p4097763


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:15 pm 


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That's great news. So many of them you see don't have the card...


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:31 am 


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They're on our forum...


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:31 pm 


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Is there a forum (maybe this one?) where people can help me troubleshoot through this jvc monitor's tube not firing up? It turns out that the power, mainboard, and neckboard isn't identical to the 150CG's like I had hoped.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:18 am 


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Here's my BVM-1311 I just bought!
It has the service switches on the inside of the pullout panels/trays. Problem was they were locked and the seller didn't have the keys. When I first tested it out, the sync was set to Internal and I couldn't get a stable image. But for the brief moments it did stabilize, I could tell the image looked good. So instead of drilling out the locks, I ended up learning how to pick them from online tutorials. With a split bobby pin and was able to get them unlocked within a couple minutes:
Image

here is where my setting switches are:
Image

I was able to get it to switch to External Sync and voila!
Image

teh sex
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Happy I was able to get in easily. Everything looks great, convergence is sweet, straightened up the bowing, perfect image. And now with my new lock picking skills I can begin my career as a master thief!
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 Post subject: BVM Drawer Key
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:11 am 


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opt2not wrote:
Here's my BVM-1311 I just bought!
It has the service switches on the inside of the pullout panels/trays. Problem was they were locked and the seller didn't have the keys. So instead of drilling out the locks, I ended up learning how to pick them from online tutorials. With a split bobby pin and was able to get them unlocked within a couple minutes.

Happy I was able to get in easily. Everything looks great, convergence is sweet, straightened up the bowing, perfect image. And now with my new lock picking skills I can begin my career as a master thief!

While picking the lock is certainly and option, and pretty simple for that kind of lock, you may want to look into getting a new key made for the long run.

Unless the owner actually had it re-keyed for whatever reason, the keys themselves are supposedly generic and usable on any BVM from that era. Someone took these photos a while back for a locksmith to recreate one for some one else, and it apparently worked perfectly.

http://i.imgur.com/Mu4kBiX.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: BVM Drawer Key
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:39 am 


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KatKya wrote:
opt2not wrote:
Here's my BVM-1311 I just bought!
It has the service switches on the inside of the pullout panels/trays. Problem was they were locked and the seller didn't have the keys. So instead of drilling out the locks, I ended up learning how to pick them from online tutorials. With a split bobby pin and was able to get them unlocked within a couple minutes.

Happy I was able to get in easily. Everything looks great, convergence is sweet, straightened up the bowing, perfect image. And now with my new lock picking skills I can begin my career as a master thief!

While picking the lock is certainly and option, and pretty simple for that kind of lock, you may want to look into getting a new key made for the long run.

Unless the owner actually had it re-keyed for whatever reason, the keys themselves are supposedly generic and usable on any BVM from that era. Someone took these photos a while back for a locksmith to recreate one for some one else, and it apparently worked perfectly.

http://i.imgur.com/Mu4kBiX.jpg

Thank you. I plan on getting a new key and this helps a lot!
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 Post subject: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:12 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2016
Posts: 136
AndehX wrote:
Actually, this reminds me. I have an odd issue with my BVM. The linearity seems to be warped in a certain part of the screen. Here is an extremely exaggerated example of what I mean:

Image

Now obviously mine isnt anywhere near that bad, it's hardly noticable on stil images, but when im playing a game that scrolls, like Link to the Past for example, you can quite easily notice the warping of the image in that area of the screen.

Is that fixable? and if so how?


This is something that I haven't seen discussed enough but I hate to say this is the reason I have owned and sold so many bvms of the 20+ variety.
It is pretty much on every one I have owned and is common and consistent enough to make me think that it's universal to the design of the tube or deflection. admittedly I have not changed any caps for this issue but I have swapped multiple boards of different ages with different units and this always persists.

It's almost always in that spot of the screen you pointed out but it is much less exaggerated. The problem is that once I see it I can't unsee it.

I have spent days and days tinkering with linearity to try and sort this but because it's an isolated slice of the screen it can't really be isolated and controlled

If you want to check for it try looking at the background gate of super castlevania 4 in stage 1-2 to watch the rails slightly compress and then release as you walk by. Another good one is the checkered pattern of green hill zone while moving slowly left and right. My advice for anyone with a bvm with a smidgen of OCD is to not look out for it in the first place.

The ONLY Sony monitor that I have that has absolutely no evidence of this issue is the BVM2011p which I can honestly say has perfect geometry in comparison to my other types but has its own quirks (no tilt control for gravity compensation and contrast bloom)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:20 pm 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 310
LDigital wrote:
This is something that I haven't seen discussed enough but I hate to say this is the reason I have owned and sold so many bvms of the 20+ variety.
It is pretty much on every one I have owned and is common and consistent enough to make me think that it's universal to the design of the tube or deflection. admittedly I have not changed any caps for this issue but I have swapped multiple boards of different ages with different units and this always persists.

It's almost always in that spot of the screen you pointed out but it is much less exaggerated. The problem is that once I see it I can't unsee it.

I have spent days and days tinkering with linearity to try and sort this but because it's an isolated slice of the screen it can't really be isolated and controlled

If you want to check for it try looking at the background gate of super castlevania 4 in stage 1-2 to watch the rails slightly compress and then release as you walk by. Another good one is the checkered pattern of green hill zone while moving slowly left and right. My advice for anyone with a bvm with a smidgen of OCD is to not look out for it in the first place.

The ONLY Sony monitor that I have that has absolutely no evidence of this issue is the BVM2011p which I can honestly say has perfect geometry in comparison to my other types but has its own quirks (no tilt control for gravity compensation and contrast bloom)

Thanks for the response. That actually puts my mind at ease to be honest. At least I know now that it's apparently not a fault specific to my unit. If you've had many 20 inch BVM's and they've all shown the same issue, then that leads one to believe that it's simply a design flaw of the monitor. I can live with that. If you'd have come in saying "oh that's clearly a symptom of failing capacitors" or something, the perfectionist in me would be rushing onto ebay to grab what I need to fix it. At least I don't have to worry about that now.
I am a bit OCD, but if I know it's beyond my control, like this for example, then I can live with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:31 pm 



Joined: 22 Apr 2013
Posts: 14
Picked up another one today from a local doctors office. It has bad discoloration in the corner though that degauss isn't fixing. Can this be corrected? (yes I moved the speakers but I've never had this problem using these same speakers with my other PVM's)


Edit: Fixed the issue by turning the monitor with the discolored part facing the ground,works great now!


Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:38 pm 


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The monitor looks great, glad you got it unlocked and working. If I were you I'd go in and play with the focus ever so slightly, but the tube looks great and geometry is good too.

For what it's worth, I've had multiple BVM-1910 monitors and none have had the horizontal linearity issue like that. Maybe that's a problem introduced a little later down the line?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:07 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2016
Posts: 136
I think so. Speaking to an old broadcast engineer who I sourced some of mine from, Apparently with the 20F1e onwards Sony changed their tube and he didn't rate them. Like I said my older 2011 is the only one without it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:21 am 



Joined: 04 Jun 2015
Posts: 115
Might be a stupid question, but do linearity coils go bad / deteriorate over time?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:32 am 


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It wouldn't be the coil, it's likely electrolytic capacitors and/or any related deflection ICs. Deflection ICs do some interesting things when they partially fail, and the BVM 20F1U and friends are new enough that this sort of thing might be done with an IC instead of a discrete deflection circuit.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:01 am 


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This is going to be a rather strange question, and possibly one that would better fit the RGB mod thread(will probably post the question there as well), but;

Assuming one were to have a TM-H1900G and a TM-H1750CG, how difficult would it be to either:

1- Swap the tubes/chassis to get the equivalent of a 1950CG

OR

2- Swap the signal input boards (and option daughterboard) to get the same result
?

I've recently pick up both, and neither are in the best of shape all in all(1750 seems a bit worn and has 16:9 burn-in|1900 has a great tube, but the case took damage in shipping), and I'd like to frankenstein the two together if possible. Aside from needing to customize the back panel of the 1900G, I think just straight up swapping the chassis entirely may be the simpler choice due to some resistors missing on the power board that deal with the input board to my knowledge.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:16 pm 


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Sexy monitor, opt2not. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:03 pm 


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@KatKya: while that's not a crazy thought at all (others have done that already), you may want first to read a bit about how to verify chassis compatibility between different tubes (I've only found a couple of links about tube swapping, but they should still have the info you need: link1, link2) and also watch a few videos on youtube (search for 'tube/chassis swap crt'). By the way user Dochartaigh on this forum has both of those monitors (or similar) so you could try to contact him as well (I don't know if he ever looked at his monitors' guts though, I certainly still haven't with mine).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:12 am 


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JVC DT-V users, does anyone use BNC 75 ohm terminators on the Out connections? I honestly can't see it making any difference with mine :o


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:40 am 


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I had already planned into checking to make sure both tubes/yokes has similar resistances and all that, but thank you for actually pointing me at some actual material on it.

As for poking Dochartaigh, based on a few posts in the RGB Mod thread, they're actually waiting to get some info from me on a modding the 1900G.

Both monitors have extremely similar boards to the point of one just being a more populated version of the other (1750CG vs 1900G), so assuming the tubes themselves are cross compatible, I can't see too many issues coming up aside from actually mounting everything properly.

Upon reading a bit and poking around a bit, despite poking around with my multimeter a bit, I can't seem to get an actual reading for either monitor's yoke, likely due to the additional adjustment bits mounted on the neck and only being able to find the contacts to test coming up from the power board rather than where they actually go off to the yoke. Might help if I could find the service manual for either of them (or a related chassis, TM40 for the 1750 and TM42 for the 1900)
The meter itself is working properly, as I did manage to get readings from a completely unrelated CRT I have laying around.

http://i.imgur.com/PQOGIil.jpg

Any ideas?
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:19 pm 


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werk91 wrote:
JVC DT-V users, does anyone use BNC 75 ohm terminators on the Out connections? I honestly can't see it making any difference with mine :o


The user manual says they are auto terminated, so no need for terminators.


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